Shooting in Westroads?

[Jay]

Very sketchy info right now, but apparently Westroads is currently under lock down as there have been shots fired in the mall.

More info as I get it.......

[Jay]

I have remained quiet here as everyone has obviously been watching the coverage as it has unfolded. I assure you I have many observations to share, as I'm sure everyone on both sides of the gun control issue do, and will be posting those in the days to come.

For now, let's just pray for the families and friends of the victims of this sensless act, and never again utter the name of the coward that took so many innocent lives.

[JimP]

nwjt at the ccwne forum claims to have been onthe scene...... If true, This is a BOMBSHELL.

[Kim]

For those of you who do not know, nwjt, is an avid poster on another forum area in regards to concealed carry. His account is very detailed and moving as he was in Von Maur and on the third floor at the time of shooting. 

To read nwjt's account of what happened at Westroads on Wednesday, follow the link below.


http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/

I have thought long and hard about his story and what would I do if in that situation or if I was in that situation and had been carrying. It sure makes a person think.

I would be interested in knowing everyones thoughts!

[JimP]

NWJT has rethought his position on deadly force................. Nothing like Cold Harsh Reality to provide a little clarity....

............. Westroads could have gone like the Colorado Church shooting....... perp walks in, opens fire and is taken out by a CCW holder.......

[1hickey]

I for one am glad the woman happened to be at the church in Colorado.  That could have ended up much, much, worse than it did.  As was stated on the blog, though, when you are in such a situation, you don't know for sure how you will respond.  As the writer stated, it would have been much different for him had his wife and child been there (as they were the night before).  Again, I'm glad the woman at the church had her wits about her.  Not everyone that has a weapon will use one in such a situation.  In discussing the law of war, we say "the trigger belongs to the gun, the trigger finger belongs to the soldier.  The two are separated by a moral choice".  The choice is clear to me, as a soldier.  There isn't much moral shakedown to situations as we have seen this past week except for the bystander caveat.

I have been on the fence regarding personally having a CCW.  For me, the issue of location in the current law nearly outweighs the priviledge of CCW in this state.  I'm a maintenance manager at a class C school.   The talk today here by staff and admin has been that they wish I would carry here at work since I have been weapons trained by the military.  Unfortunately, NElaw prohibits all except law enforcement and criminals from carrying a weapon in schools, churches, etc.  Even if the organization WANTED a person or persons to carry on site.  That includes open carry as far as I can read.

A bit of a rant- Maybe it's my military background, but how do people think that there is security without trained AND armed personnel?  Security is not a bunch of harsh signs, alarms, lights, and dudes in polyester uniforms being paid minimum wage.  What are they supposed to do in a violent situation?  Use harsh language?  What will Westroads do with the signs they took down?  Just rewrite them, make them bigger?  That will surely help .  Security is a supersition without highly trained and motivated individuals guarding what is precious.  This is why we have a military.  Now, tell me I can't have the option of force projection to protect my family and friends.  Excrement!

I must admit, though, that I am still on the fence a bit with the CCW thing.  Is is really worth having CCW permit when you can't legally carry that weapon AT ALL in the places and towns where you would most want to.  In fact, I would be a criminal myself for carrying in most locations and in violation of my CCW permit.  I am not yet very concerned about violence in Cass County.  Omaha, Lincoln, Plattsmouth, etc. are a different story. 

Thoughts everyone??

[Jay]

Ok, 1hickey, so the current law is definitely flawed. We all know that here. But we don't have much of a chance of getting it fixed if all the fence riders take the stand that they will wait until it gets better to spend the money. I'm not picking on you here, I'm just coming at this from a different angle. Lawmakers are not looking at the low number of permit holders as a symptom of the law being flawed, they look at it as a symptom of Nebraskans not really feeling the need to get a permit period. In my opinion, everyone in the state that believes in the second amendment should get a CHP whether they actually plan on carrying or not, just to show people that we will and do support any legislation that supports our rights to keep and bear arms, not to mention simply protecting ourselves. Lawmakers would be much more apt to listen to the concerns of tens of thousands of citizens than a couple thousand permit holders.

Besides, so what you are saying is that because the current law limits you from carrying in certain places, you would rather go unarmed all the time instead of part of the time? That makes no sense to me. (Affirmative defense aside.) A permit lets you legally carry concealed in many places in both Omaha and Lincoln.

Now save up some chips and get your danged permit private! 

[JimP]

I have been on the fence regarding personally having a CCW.  For me, the issue of location in the current law nearly outweighs the priviledge of CCW in this state.  I'm a maintenance manager at a class C school.   The talk today here by staff and admin has been that they wish I would carry here at work since I have been weapons trained by the military.  Unfortunately, NElaw prohibits all except law enforcement and criminals from carrying a weapon in schools, churches, etc.  Even if the organization WANTED a person or persons to carry on site.  That includes open carry as far as I can read.

A bit of a rant- Maybe it's my military background, but how do people think that there is security without trained AND armed personnel?  Security is not a bunch of harsh signs, alarms, lights, and dudes in polyester uniforms being paid minimum wage.  What are they supposed to do in a violent situation?  Use harsh language?  What will Westroads do with the signs they took down?  Just rewrite them, make them bigger?  That will surely help .  Security is a supersition without highly trained and motivated individuals guarding what is precious.  This is why we have a military.  Now, tell me I can't have the option of force projection to protect my family and friends.  Excrement!

I must admit, though, that I am still on the fence a bit with the CCW thing.  Is is really worth having CCW permit when you can't legally carry that weapon AT ALL in the places and towns where you would most want to.  In fact, I would be a criminal myself for carrying in most locations and in violation of my CCW permit.  I am not yet very concerned about violence in Cass County.  Omaha, Lincoln, Plattsmouth, etc. are a different story. 

Thoughts everyone??

Because you can't carry everywhere, you carry nowhere?  Because the law is not perfect, we just give up?  Do what you can...... to do less is being lazy.

The Lesson in the latest shootings is the same: When a goblin bent on Murder appears, he will kill as many people as he wants to, unless someone with  the Mindset, Skills, AND Hardware stops him. The best way to ensure that someone is wherever you are is to do everything you can BE that somone. "Everything"  includes getting your permit and carrying when you can. It includes practice. It includes letting businesses know you don't spend money where Carry is Prohibited. It includes going to hearings and board meetings  and pointing out the stupidity of more regualation of Law Abiding Citizens.......... it isn't easy. A Free Society is not easy. But it is worth it.

If the staff there wishes you could carry, remind them if wishes were horses, we could all ride and eat free horseburgers. Have them let State Sen Brad Ashford and their own Legislator know that they don't appreciate working in a "Gun Free Zone/Human Hunting Area". Tell them to remind their Lawmakers that the FACT that Murder is against the law and guns are not allowed  in the Mall did not stop the von Maur maniac. If the threat of lawsuits causes businesses to eliminate their "No Gun Zones", the SCHOOLS and CHURCHES are the next best targets. Making things MORE illegal won't stop criminals. THEY ALREADY IGNORE THE LAWS. Making more gun laws will just make it harder for Law Abiding Citizens to be armed. It worked on YOU, didn't it? Coming from non-gun owners, it would get Ashford's attention better. He seems to write off Pro-Carry people as "Gun Nuts."

Do all that you can. To do less is being lazy.

[Jay]

Another facet of this is that this is going to affect more than just those who choose to carry a handgun. There are going to be implications from this event that will affect the owners of AR-15s, AKs, Mini 14s, and even Walmart 22s if we are not vigilant.

Now, more than ever, is the time to stand up and be heard.

[1hickey]

Thanks, guys.  I see everyone's point.  Lincoln may not have extra laws like O does concerning carry, but nearly everywhere you go in this town sports a no weapons sign.  Its really fascist, to say the least.  Heck, there is not one school public or otherwise in this whole city that has a JROTC.  We here at LC would, but we're too small to support it given the federal funding guidelines.

The biggest problem for the administration here on pursuing real security (i.e. me carrying) is that it isn't only a legal issue.  There are just too many folks out there who don't understand.  here at LC, they seem to be on one side or the other.  Some parents and staff have been asking me to carry nearly since I arrived and the other side wants no guns whatsoever in thier community.  It's a conundrum to say the least.  Unfortunately, most people won't change thier minds until something horrible happens to them.  Like I mentioned before, the recent school shootings over the past year along with Westroads and the Colorado church have already made more folks vociferous around here.  I can only hope that we can generate enough common sense to get things worked out on the legal side.

But, I have to also support the rights of property owners who choose to not allow weapons on thier property.  Just as I believe it is my right to carry if I choose, it is also thier right to say "not around me".  As stupid and circular logic as I may think that is, it is still thier right as a private citizen.  I get absolutely livid when people bash the military, burn the flag, and other general verbal attacks against our nation, but as citizens, it is still thier right to voice opposition.  That is the core of what I am sworn to defend- the Constitution.  My rights don't usurp thiers, and vice versa.

When it's all said and done, I think I will save up for the CCW course and permit.  I'll need to also purchase an appropriate weapon.  However, I won't be able to carry the majority of the time here in Lincoln.  I would be in violation of my permit.

BTW- when is that Plattsmouth city council meeting??

[JimP]

Senator Ashford represents District 20, a narrow strip running through the center of Omaha south of Pacific Street. He is the chairman of the State Judiciary Committee. Claims to be a Republican. Knows aproximately squat about firearms. His gubmint e-mail:

bashford@leg.ne.gov

Be Polite. Enlighten the man.

[Jay]

But, I have to also support the rights of property owners who choose to not allow weapons on thier property.  Just as I believe it is my right to carry if I choose, it is also thier right to say "not around me".  As stupid and circular logic as I may think that is, it is still thier right as a private citizen.  I get absolutely livid when people bash the military, burn the flag, and other general verbal attacks against our nation, but as citizens, it is still thier right to voice opposition.  That is the core of what I am sworn to defend- the Constitution.  My rights don't usurp thiers, and vice versa.

I agree with you on that for the most part.

As for the Plattsmouth issue:
From what I understand right now, the Plattsmouth City Council has asked that the Police Chief speak at the first meeting after the first of the year, with our grouping speaking at the second. I am not very thrilled with the situation, but I guess we should try to cooperate as much as we can. Actually, not really sure what choice we have in the matter. I can tell you that this is going to be a tough nut to crack.

[JimP]

But, I have to also support the rights of property owners who choose to not allow weapons on thier property.  Just as I believe it is my right to carry if I choose, it is also thier right to say "not around me".  As stupid and circular logic as I may think that is, it is still thier right as a private citizen.  I get absolutely livid when people bash the military, burn the flag, and other general verbal attacks against our nation, but as citizens, it is still thier right to voice opposition.  That is the core of what I am sworn to defend- the Constitution.  My rights don't usurp thiers, and vice versa.

You don'thave to SUPPORT their right to not want any guns around. You just have to RESPECT that right. Don't SUPPORT the opposition. Don't spend money there. SUPPORT retailers that respect your RIGHTS. Tell them why you spend your money elsewhere. Maybe they want your business. Maybe the don't. Let them choose.....

[JimP]

As for the Plattsmouth issue:
From what I understand right now, the Plattsmouth City Council has asked that the Police Chief speak at the first meeting after the first of the year, with our grouping speaking at the second. I am not very thrilled with the situation, but I guess we should try to cooperate as much as we can. Actually, not really sure what choice we have in the matter. I can tell you that this is going to be a tough nut to crack.

Sounds like a delaying tactic to me..........

[1hickey]

Do we know what the chief is speaking on?  Is it this topic, or just a general report?  It' certainly possible to show up and hear what he has to say, isn't it?

Funny, I could see how they might be more concerned about open carry than CCW people if it is an image or business issue.  If permit holders were concealed, 90% of the population wouldn't have the foggiest they were carrying.  That is an argument I hear more often than not, it is an image thing.  A lot of business owners don't want thier patrons thinking it's the "Wild West".  LOL!

[Kim]

From what I understand, the Chief of Police will be speaking on the subject of what "he, being the chief", would like to see in regards to ccw. Jay or Randy might have more information on this. I do not know his position, however would not be surprised if we see the same resistance that we saw in Nebraska City (at least in Plattsmouth I believe we have support of at least 2 members to date).

Yes, I would encourage all that can attend to the 1st meeting do so. This will show the council that we will not give up and  we are serious. My plan is to have enough facts and statistics to enlighten them.

As far as to carry or not to carry.......

I feel that it is my right to carry, just as it is my right to breathe. I understand the frustration of when and where you can or can not carry is an issue however, like was stated earlier, the more people that want and can carry maybe the more weight we will have in trying to get things changed. The more people that show up at town meetings, at the legislative discussions and at business that prohibit concealed carry (to drop off a no guns no money card) the better.

Just like Westroads and the Church in Colorado, it can happen anywhere, anytime to anyone. My hope is that the lawmakers will now listen with an open mind and consider this wholeheartedly, instead of pacifying the few like I felt happened in Lincoln. We need to enlighten them on the facts that the criminals do not care who can or can not carry and where they can or cannot carry and commit a crime. This is the part that just floors me, the lawmakers are only setting up the law abiding citizens to be victims and don't see it.

Now, if I was at Westroads and carrying, what would I have done? This I can not answer. My mind has wrestled with this more than I would like to admit. Would I of, could I of positioned myself, fired my firearm and stopped the killer? That is a tough one. I have decided that when the weather clears, there will definetly  be a practice area in the timber. I envision good guys, bad guys and movable targets (yes, Jay we have some work to do), but I feel that if I am going to have a firearm, I need to practice in as close to a real life "crisis" situation as possible and practice often.

I here more and more reasons why a person should have a firearm with them at all times, why I should have a firearm with me at all times. It scares me to think that, however, I am comfortable with the fact that firearms don't scare me anymore and that if in a "situation" at least I have that availability.

[1hickey]

OK, I am sure I'm getting flamed for this, but I want some discussion anyway.

On the subject of the "No guns, no money" boycotting of businesses:  Does anyone on this forum really believe that a few folks not shopping at a store and dropping off a card will change policies?  There just simply aren't enough CCW folks in the state to make boycotting effective in policy change.  Boycotts working is a numbers game.  If a business thinks it has too much money to lose with a policy or product, they will change, but usually not until.  You are going to need serious numbers or really serious publicity to make it effective.

Now don't hear what I'm not saying....by all means boycott businesses AND tell them why.  But do it on moral principle.  I boycott a few businesses for personal moral reasons already.  I make such things known to friends and on applicable forums, but I don't really expect my boycott (and maybe a couple thousand others if I'm really lucky) to make a real policy difference in said businesses.

Look, I'm not at all trying to discourage anyone from boycotting a business, but if we want to effectively change the environment around us, I think there are more effective ways.  I'm just looking at this from a pragmatic standpoint.  Showing up at council meetings, state committee meetings, and flooding our representatives with intelligent pleas for change is the way to do it.  We are fighting a public relations battle with this.  Basic communication theory states that however far an individual or group is from your persuasion, that is a direct correlation to how unlikely it is to convince them otherwise.  The folks we really want to communicate to are those who don't have a particular opinion, or do not have a passionate opinion.

Jim taking the neighbor boy shooting is huge- not only does the kid understand and respect the position, but his family will come to as well once they see what is really going on.  IMHO, this is what we really need to engage in- education.  If we sincerely want to make our little corner of the world a better place, people need to understand why.  Our opponents have too much influence and volume.  We need to be wise and change this for real.

[Kim]

Matt, no, I do not think that me boycotting a business will change anything other than it might open a few eyes and if more and more people do the same, the business is question might reconsider. To me, it's all about education.

[Jay]

Helloooo.... there are several instances in which businesses in Nebraska have taken down signs because of complaints and no guns = no money cards. I know it sounds like a cliche, but we really can make a difference. Sometimes it just takes someone intelligently pointing out a different way of seeing things.

[1hickey]

Really?  That's cool.  Who was it, do you know?