Gun stores rationing ammo?

[GreyGeek]

http://www.news-journal.com/news/local/east-texas-stores-ration-ammo-as-shortage-affects-law-enforcement/article_0bb56976-be86-5422-a4d0-9d4e7f436ea3.html

Iv'e come to  the opinion that many are not rationing it, they are helping to create the shortage by gouging customers via on-line auctions.  The article claims that "shortages are easing".  I haven't seen any "easing" but I'm beginning to doubt that the current shortage  is real.

For example, I followed one auction for 124 gr RN bullets.  500 sold for $85 dollars.   A couple months ago I bought 500 for 54$ at Scheels.  The seller was offering 85 units for sale!  I used my Internet skills to determine that the seller actually owned a gun store in Van Buren, Tx.   On their website they offered 1,000 124 gr RN bullets for $71.80 (http://www.thebulletworks.net/category-s/59.htm) but when you click through you get the message: "Sorry, the following item is currently out of stock: 9mm 124 Plated Flat Point Sized to .3555 priced per 1000pc"

If they are "out  of stock" I'm the Pope.  The manufacturers have ramped up production but the real "hoarders" in  this  fiasco  are the dealers who  aren't putting it  on the shelves but driving up prices by sustaining the appearance of shortages and then exploiting the situation they maintaining by using the online auctions.

Fortunately, dealers like MidUSA, Powder Valley,  Natchez and others are selling at pre-surge prices when they get stock in.  They will continue to get my business after this fiasco blows over.  But, dealers like theBulletWorks, CheaperThanDirt and the other gougers?   Never again.   Sheel's is on the line, from my POV.  Two months ago I bought 1,000 9mm dirty casings for $40.   Sheel's is selling 100 9mm casings for $25.   Supply and demand is one thing, holding back supply to increase demand to justify extortionary prices is unethical, even  if it is not illegal.

[gsd]

one of the employees at DE Guns told me the other day that they don't even bother putting the higher end ARs they get in on the wall for local sale.

they just put them on Gunbroker because (in his words) "they can get more money for them online."

[NENick]

We've got a free market economy... This is one of the things that can happen. It really sucks, but we don't have to take part in it. I haven't been gouged at all, because I haven't purchased ammunition at panic/gouging prices.

I choose to sit out the high prices and will return to buying when things come back down.

[CitizenClark]

http://www.news-journal.com/news/local/east-texas-stores-ration-ammo-as-shortage-affects-law-enforcement/article_0bb56976-be86-5422-a4d0-9d4e7f436ea3.html

Iv'e come to  the opinion that many are not rationing it, they are helping to create the shortage by gouging customers via on-line auctions.  The article claims that "shortages are easing".  I haven't seen any "easing" but I'm beginning to doubt that the current shortage  is real.

For example, I followed one auction for 124 gr RN bullets.  500 sold for $85 dollars.   A couple months ago I bought 500 for 54$ at Scheels.  The seller was offering 85 units for sale!  I used my Internet skills to determine that the seller actually owned a gun store in Van Buren, Tx.   On their website they offered 1,000 124 gr RN bullets for $71.80 (http://www.thebulletworks.net/category-s/59.htm) but when you click through you get the message: "Sorry, the following item is currently out of stock: 9mm 124 Plated Flat Point Sized to .3555 priced per 1000pc"

If they are "out  of stock" I'm the Pope.  The manufacturers have ramped up production but the real "hoarders" in  this  fiasco  are the dealers who  aren't putting it  on the shelves but driving up prices by sustaining the appearance of shortages and then exploiting the situation they maintaining by using the online auctions.

Fortunately, dealers like MidUSA, Powder Valley,  Natchez and others are selling at pre-surge prices when they get stock in.  They will continue to get my business after this fiasco blows over.  But, dealers like theBulletWorks, CheaperThanDirt and the other gougers?   Never again.   Sheel's is on the line, from my POV.  Two months ago I bought 1,000 9mm dirty casings for $40.   Sheel's is selling 100 9mm casings for $25.   Supply and demand is one thing, holding back supply to increase demand to justify extortionary prices is unethical, even  if it is not illegal.

I've said it before and I will say it again, there is no such thing as a just price, other than that agreed upon by a willing buyer and a willing seller.

"Price-gouging" exists only in the minds of people who think they have some right to other people's property.

[GreyGeek]

"Price-gouging" exists only in the minds of people who think they have some right to other people's property.

Or, when someone puts their "finger on the scale" and tips the "free" market into being not so free?  Graft and corruption doesn't keep a free market free.

[metaldoc]

I've said it before and I will say it again, there is no such thing as a just price, other than that agreed upon by a willing buyer and a willing seller.

"Price-gouging" exists only in the minds of people who think they have some right to other people's property.

This is just too 'harsh' for me to agree with.   There is a concept of FAIR pricing which is incompatible with GREED.   

IMO, there is indeed such a thing as 'price-gouging' or charging what the market will bear.  Unfortunately, we are seeing way too much of it now, along with the general decline of morality and common sense.
 

[CitizenClark]

Or, when someone puts their "finger on the scale" and tips the "free" market into being not so free?  Graft and corruption doesn't keep a free market free.

Putting your finger on the scale would be fraud. You'd be intentionally deceiving someone about an objective, quantifiable datum re: the thing that you are selling them.

Saying that you will only sell your widget for $1 million, even though everyone else is only willing to pay $1000, is not immoral or unjust, and I don't see how it could possibly constitute fraud. There is no objectively correct price, such that setting another price is somehow deceptive. Free-floating prices based entirely on the voluntary choices of buyers and sellers is the principal market feature enabling capitalists to make rational economic calculations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

[CitizenClark]

This is just too 'harsh' for me to agree with.   There is a concept of FAIR pricing which is incompatible with GREED.   

IMO, there is indeed such a thing as 'price-gouging' or charging what the market will bear.  Unfortunately, we are seeing way too much of it now, along with the general decline of morality and common sense.

Please read Laurence Vance's short article, "The Myth of the Just Price."
https://mises.org/daily/2918

We should all be glad when prices rise in a shortage situation, because that motivates entrepreneurs to devote additional capital to satisfying that underserved sector of the market (as we are seeing now, with ammo companies working to expand their production capacity, running factories around the clock, etc.).

[bullit]

And for those STUPID (harsh word, eh) enough to pay these "high" prices makes it possible for folks like me to come in a year or two later and pay below pre-panic prices for "items of topic" because they need the money .....

As an aside, if you think folks MAY be paying too much for ASKING too much in this area, join Oklahama Gun Exchange on Facebook.  There are some real dopes down there (and yes I went to school at OU) asking and getiung.

[gigabelly]

I thought you were a Texan, bullit.  No respectable Texan goes to OU. 

 I jest, of course, and realize this is off topic.  We did an internship and residency at OU Tulsa, so I really have no room to speak.

[GreyGeek]

Putting your finger on the scale would be fraud. You'd be intentionally deceiving someone about an objective, quantifiable datum re: the thing that you are selling them.

Exactly.   When they claim on their website that they are "out of stock" on a specific item yet are offering it at inflated, FIXED prices on an online forum they are deliberately lying.

[Gary]

There are still good deals, just purchased a handgun on this site for a good price for both buyer and seller.  Likewise, GunBroker also has good prices on some things, purchased a Henry Mares leg for well under retail.

The dust will settle, ((or not, if a big storm is hiding in that dust cloud)) and things will return to normal. 

I would say if you are low on food, water, ammo, arms, do what you need to do, at whatever the price, to stock up to be as self reliant as possible.   

[Gary]

Years ago, I was a pawnbroker.  Had a nice big shop.  Lots of jewelry, musical instruments, guns, tools, CD's, movies, cassettes, lots & lots of everything.   

If I were a pawnbroker today, I would have zero in inventory for retail in my store, nothing.  Things that come out of pawn, not claimed, would go on eBay, GunBroker, and sell to the highest bidder and be done with it.  Less overhead, faster turnaround, less employees, less employee shrinkage, and a thousand other reasons I could think of to simplify my business and increase profits.

[gsd]

And when the dust settles...so will the business those people have depended on. Something comes to mind about the hand that feeds you...

Best hope the profits you made will hold you until you find something else to make money off of.

[abbafandr]

Interesting discussion.   

Fair price.  Who determines a fair price?  A seller can't force anyone to buy anything ( except Obamacare, which is way off this thread).

If you feel you have been ripped off or treated poorly by a business, don't deal with them again.  Remember, fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

There are 4 gun shops I have bought from recently and one of them will never get a dime of my money again.  That is my choice, but I will not deal with them for inflating prices. 

Hopefully, things will settle down and we will look back at this thread and wonder what all the fuss was about.

[unfy]

Don't want the widget at the price asked, don't buy it.

Didn't have a workable stock pile before things got nasty ? That's your fault.

Didn't get into things until things got nasty ? Nice timing .

Basically, I look at all of the folks paying 3-5 times 'regular' price and laugh at them... and makes me wish I had a small horde to sit on and sell.  I prolly shoulda sat on those lead bullets I sold Ron


As far as entrepreneurship in regard to ammo shortage - that's a game you CAN'T get into.

Getting the Class 6 license to make components for ammo ? Easy enough.  And relatively cheap ($30? $10? something like that).

But these days, you also have to deal with the DDTC.  These folks want a ~$3,000 check PER year and have some rather stringent paper work / paper trail stuff ya gotta do.

But the DDTC only covers trade / doing business with foreign countries!  Nope, they've decided that being an all powerful gov't body that even local businesses have to comply and such.

I would love to sell 2,000 - 5,000 powder coated lead bullets a month to NFOA members (not loaded rounds, just the lead) - but that aint gonna happen due to DDTC stuff.