CHP Student At Big Shots Shoots Himself Sunday.

[Gary]

Gary as a NE CHP instructor myself please clarify what your are"taking" to get your certification???

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[Bucket]

One of the More Dangerous Acts in Concealed Carry Range Qualification.........

Involves holstering a loaded firearm.

So---we holster semi-automatics only with an empty chamber in my CHP classes.   We start with chambers empty, insert the magazines in the mag wells, come to the ready position, and then holster without racking the slides to chamber rounds.   In this way we holster all semi-automatics on an empty chamber.   On the "Draw and Fire"  command, students first draw and only then rack the slide to chamber a round into battery so that they can fire their qualification series.

Nothing in the NAC Title 272, Chapter 21 administrative rules requires holstering a semi-automatic with a round in the chamber, so we don't do it.   Which adds enormously to safety on the firing line during range qualification.

Can't do the same on revolvers.   Have to holster them w/loaded rounds in the cylinder.  But....just taking the semi-autos out of the equation is a huge safety factor.

FYI,

sfg

Don't get me wrong, I understand the safety aspect, but I do have question the value of the training if it doesn't include the do's and don't's of carrying a weapon with a chambered round.  Admittedly, I'm new to this business but EVERYTHING I've read and most logic points to the fact that if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.

Wouldn't it be better to add that to the overall training program rather than turn people loose on the streets who are "qualified"?

[unfy]

but EVERYTHING I've read and most logic points to the fact that if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.

Some folks are uncomfortable with a round in the chamber.

Some folks are uncomfortable with a cocked & locked 1911 on their hip.

Carry the weapon in a way that you feel safe and comfortable.

Just do realize you'll have to rack the slide when drawing (or whatever is appropriate for your carry weapon).

I personally carry my Sig P229 with a round in the chamber (and has no external mechanical safeties)... but couldn't fathom carrying a C&L'd 1911

[GreyGeek]

if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.

Carrying a round in the chamber will make the  weapon ready  to fire when it is drawn.  Racking a round before you can fire can give away your position and the fact that you are armed if a perp  isn't looking right at you.  Racking destroys any advantage not being the the perps view might bring.

[rudy]

I think it has been summed up pretty well already: likely a combination of poor trigger discipline and a crappy holster.  In my class I saw lots of soft nylon holsters being used.  I'm of the opinion that holsters should be made of leather or kydex and be specifically designed for a particular pistol, not a "one size fits all".  A couple of my leather IWB holsters even have a steel reinforced mouth that make for easy one handed reholstering.

[Chris C]

I didn't see it posted skimming through the responses but did he pass?  I mean come on getting shot with a .22 (probably down the side of the leg) he could have just wrapped it up with newspaper and a little duct tape and made it through the rest of the class.   

[Gary]

I didn't see it posted skimming through the responses but did he pass?  I mean come on getting shot with a .22 (probably down the side of the leg) he could have just wrapped it up with newspaper and a little duct tape and made it through the rest of the class.   

I wonder if the people around him passed?  If you are on a buss, and it crashes for one buss passenger, it crashes for everyone. 

Class of 25 or so, one would think someone from that class would be a posting member here. 

Anyone here at that class Sunday?

Tuff situation for everyone, but worse for the one with the lead weight in his leg. 

[unfy]

Racking destroys any advantage not being the the perps view might bring.

If you're drawing you're weapon, you are more than likely going to discharge it.  For me, drawing it means firing it.... old school mentality of the only reason to point a gun at someone etc.  Having two parents that served in the military prolly has something to do with that mentality heh.  If the weapon's off your hip, it's less than a couple seconds of being discharged (granted, if the BG immediately stops/drops weapon... yay for them, they don't get holes).  It is the *VERY* last resort (drawing it).

By no means am I attempting to sound belittling or anything... but ya aint playing Metal Gear Solid or a Tom Clancy game (and yes, I realize with your age group, you probably have no clue what I'm referring to heh). If your weapon is drawn, it'd be hard to imagine it being in your hands isn't inconspicuous, or the whole drawing it movement, etc.  I will agree that the extra noise is a technical disadvantage but that, by no means, should be the basis for the proponent of carrying one in the chamber.

Much more valid stances would be:

a) no possibility of FTF problems when racking the slide during the short window that first shot is so critical

b) less steps involved during an adrenaline rush (ie: a possibility to skip practice/training learned movements of draw & simultaneous rack)

c) some slides are downright difficult to rack.  the recoil spring on my p229 is beefy

... etc ...

[RedDot]

Don't get me wrong, I understand the safety aspect, but I do have question the value of the training if it doesn't include the do's and don't's of carrying a weapon with a chambered round.  Admittedly, I'm new to this business but EVERYTHING I've read and most logic points to the fact that if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.

Wouldn't it be better to add that to the overall training program rather than turn people loose on the streets who are "qualified"?

I took SFG's CHP course and back the method used for a couple of reasons.  Many people in these classes are taking their "first" range instruction whether or not they feel they have a "working knowledge" of firearms.  We had one guy who assumed he knew what he was doing repeatedly ignore range commands even after several corrections. (I was kinda hoping SFG would give the guy a little "Come to Jesus" talk, Marine Corps style  )  He repeatedly covered the poor guy in lane 8 enough times that he kept flinching and stepping back.  Wife & I standing behind waiting for our turn on the line gravitated over to wait behind lanes 1&2.  I wanted her concentrating on the range instructions and what SHE was doing, not worrying over what the person to the left would do.  Advanced training course? Go ahead and holster a live round.  First time course? You're not really gaining anything extra other than the risk of an accidental/negligient discharge.  No offense but some of you "old guys" hear suggestions not instructions.     We all passed, no one limped away, I'd say SFG's method is sound.

[HuskerXDM]

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Could I get in on the PM too... I'm an instructor and didn't have to "take" anything....

[RLMoeller]

Could I get in on the PM too... I'm an instructor and didn't have to "take" anything....

Same here.  I would like to hear about this too.

[Gary]

Could I get in on the PM too... I'm an instructor and didn't have to "take" anything....

PM sent

[Gary]

Same here.  I would like to hear about this too.

PM sent.

[Gary]

Some folks are uncomfortable with a round in the chamber.

Some folks are uncomfortable with a cocked & locked 1911 on their hip.

Carry the weapon in a way that you feel safe and comfortable.

Just do realize you'll have to rack the slide when drawing (or whatever is appropriate for your carry weapon).



I personally carry my Sig P229 with a round in the chamber (and has no external mechanical safeties)... but couldn't fathom carrying a C&L'd 1911

I am uncomfortable with a Glock with one in the pipe, so always keep a Glock doubled down, a Safe T Blok and in a holster that completely covers the trigger.   Yes, one is enough, but double safe, safer.             

[zofoman]

I didn't see it posted skimming through the responses but did he pass?  I mean come on getting shot with a .22 (probably down the side of the leg) he could have just wrapped it up with newspaper and a little duct tape and made it through the rest of the class.   

I fail to see humor in light of this person's misfortune.   It's also obvious that more people need to have respect for any weapon of any caliber....they're all deadly.

[Gary]

The owner of BS had knee replacement done on Thursday, so on Sunday morning he was no where near work I am sure.  Imagine the horror of answering the phone next to your bed, and having someone from work, inform you, someone has been shot in your CHP class, and you are laid up in bed .   

Very sorry day for all involved.  So,so glad no one was killed, or more seriously hurt.

Is it possible, all range time on these basic CHP classes should be limited to small caliber weapons?

Not my opinion, but it might make for good banter.

I qualified on my personal gun of 20 years, that I shoot pretty well, a Glock 10mm.   But for new shooters, is it reasonable to expect them to fire .357, 9mm, and the like, at a range where they are saturated with instructions, and more than likely, a little overwhelmed?

[HuskerXDM]

From my perspective, the caliber of the handgun is less at issue than the experience of the people signing up for CHP classes.  I will agree, though, that firing a 22 would be less intimidating for new shooters... It's just I'd rather see folks get some quality beginning instruction (and it doesn't have to be an official class) before coming to my class.  I would say at least 30-40% of those I've seen this year have never drawn from a holster before.  Throw in a cheap nylon holster and that can add another element of danger.

[Gary]

Safety First

[GreyGeek]

is it reasonable to expect them to fire .357, 9mm, and the like, at a range where they are saturated with instructions, and more than likely, a little overwhelmed?

IMO, it all depends on the instructor and how he/she runs the class.   My instructor had only 5 people at a time on the range, and before he let anyone shoot he personally checked their weapon and holster.   AND, he wasn't the only one watching.  There was a second individual, also a qualified instructor, who assisted, and he was also watching me and the other four very closely.   He also demonstrated how to prevent most semi-auto pistols from racking a second round if you happen to be close enough to the perp to grab the gun.   My Nano came with two six shot magazines.  When he saw me using a Lula to load one he came over and loaded the clips himself in seconds without using any device.  Just plugged them in like he was putting Mentos back in the roll.  I still cannot put the last two or three rounds into the magazine without great effort.  Having two instructors there  was a definite advantage.

[dcjulie]

Gary -

Can you send me the PM you are sending requiring the CHP instructor requirements?


I'll note that we teach various levels of students from brand new "holy cow I've never touched a gun before" to "I've been shooting tin cans in my grandpa's field since I was a child" and we've never had any problems.  We discuss safety, demonstrate safety, and practice safety.  We also stress proper equipment.  If your holster is unsafe, you will be unsafe holstering your gun.  If your finger is off the trigger, the gun will not fire (given that there is nothing wrong with your holster).  The nylon floppy holsters just aren't safe and should not be used at all for the CCW classes.  Similarly, there is no reason to holster quickly, so safety should always be carefully recognized and practiced.

I know that most people on here know this, but it is true -- a gun will not fire unless the trigger has been pulled/squeezed.  Simple.  If your students learn this immediately, there shouldn't be any AD/ND issues during the class.