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Author Topic: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation  (Read 5297 times)

Offline Sandhillian

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Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« on: June 14, 2013, 10:06:01 AM »
I haven't seen a thread about this article yet.  What are peoples' thoughts?

http://www.1011now.com/home/headlines/Explosive-Targets-the-Cause-of-Loud-Booms-in-Kearney-211136271.html

Offline M7025-06

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 10:24:21 AM »
Wow...I had no idea you had to have a permit to even mix them. Interesting. 

We've shot a couple of different brands of explosive targets but we always made sure we were a long ways from any neighbors cause they do make a pretty good racket. 
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Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 02:51:42 PM »
I wonder what type of 'explosive targets' they were using.  I would have serious doubts about a commercially available explosive target being as powerful as they are talking about.  But I have no experience with them, so that's just off the cuff.
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 04:23:37 PM »
I suspect that the two fellows were using a binary explosive called Tannerite.  It is a mixture of powdered Ammonium Nitrate with Aluminum powder as the second component, about one tablespoon of Al per pound of AN, well mixed.   Simple to make but detonated only with a blasting cap or high velocity bullet.  .22 rimfire or centerfire handgun rounds won't set it off.  Neither will it being in an automobile collision set it off, which was an episode of Myth Busters.

In Nebraska Tannerite is illegal without obtaining a permit, and from my reading of the regs using it as an explosive target   Title 272:
Quote
006.05G
Has no reasonable, educational, industrial, commercial, agricultural, recreational, or other legitimate need for a permit to store or use explosive materials. Recreational use shall be defined as the use of explosives for public display.
https://statepatrol.nebraska.gov/media/10448/title_272_explosive_regs.pdf
Not being a lawyer I can't say if "public display" includes setting off explosive targets with your high powered rifle.   Maybe a lawyer reading this topic may comment.

Offline RLMoeller

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 04:39:56 PM »
Are you sure about that?

There is the exception for:
002.06 The storage or possession of or dealing in black powder used for
recreation purposes by a sportsperson.

and Tannerite is classified by the atf as black powder after it is mixed.

Plus, with most gun shops selling it. . . . . 


Offline Chris C

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 05:00:45 PM »
"Residents nearby said the blasts shook their brick and concrete homes, knocking over pictures"

Oh come on!  ::) And this is coming from a Mason.  I'm also with Rod.  With as many places selling Tannerite I don't see how it's illegal in NE.  With that said IMHO it's just a matter of time before "they" take it away from us just like all the other cool things. 

Offline NENick

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 06:25:44 PM »
"Residents nearby said the blasts shook their brick and concrete homes, knocking over pictures"

Oh come on!  ::) And this is coming from a Mason.  I'm also with Rod.  With as many places selling Tannerite I don't see how it's illegal in NE.  With that said IMHO it's just a matter of time before "they" take it away from us just like all the other cool things. 
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Offline FarmerRick

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 06:47:28 PM »
I'm pretty sure Cabela's wouldn't risk selling it in Nebraska if it wasn't legal, and they sell A LOT of it.


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Offline sidearm1

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2013, 10:02:45 PM »
State Statute 28-1213 (4) states explosive devices is any device containing more than 130 milligrams of an explosive substance.

28-1241 defines "recreational fireworks" as those containing 50 milligrams for ground based and 30 milligrams for air-based items.

As the guys on TV say:  Don't try this at home unless you have the proper permits and training."

I really think that they used something other than tannerite.  It would take a huge amount to have the blast felt as far as it was.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2013, 12:23:16 AM »
Are you sure about that?

The two fellows were cited for using explosives without a license.   What else  do you need to know?  I suspect that the NHP  is turning a blind eye to the use of exploding targets.

Here's  the Nebraska Law definition:
Quote
003.04
"Explosives" shall mean any chemical compound, mixture, or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion,  including but not limited to dynamite and other high explosives, black - 3 - powder, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cord, igniter cord, and ignitors, and fireworks or devices containing more than one hundred thirty milligrams of explosive composition, but shall not include permissible fireworks as defined in Section 28-1241, Neb. Rev. Stat., gasoline, kerosene, naptha, turpentine, benzine, acetone, ethyl ether, benzol, fixed ammunition and primers for small arms, safety fuses, or matches.

Federal Law allows you to store up to, IIRC, 20 lbs  of powder for reloading purposes without a license.  Nebraska Law follows suit, but to play with explosives, as the law I quoted shows, you must apply for a license and pay the fee, of course.   Or, limit your use per device to 130 mg or less.   

I don't know how much tannerite (ANAL) is in an  exploding target, but from what I've seen 130 mg of Tannerite will produce quite a bang when hit with an HV bullet.  It produces a lot of smoke as well.  My understanding of the law is that if your exploding devices contain more than 130 mg you need to obtain a license to explode them.   The fellows in Kearney were obviously setting off 250 gram charges of Tannerite, or larger,  which can shake windows a mile away and be heard three to 5 miles away, or more.

Tannerite is a mixture of two chemical.  It is not as powerful, pound per pound as C4 or dynamite, but it is considerably more powerful than black powder or even nitrocellulose. Here is what the FBI says about it:
http://info.publicintelligence.net/FBI-ExplodingTargets.pdf
Quote
(U) The individual components of ETs are not regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) because they do not meet the definition of “explosives” outlined in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 27 §555.11. Once the binary components are mixed, the result is an explosive material and subject to ATF regulatory requirements.

(U) Persons manufacturing explosives for their own personal, nonbusiness use only (e.g., personal target practice) are not required to have a federal explosives license (FEL) or permit. However, individuals or companies must obtain a federal explosives manufacturing license if they intend to engage in the business of manufacturing binary explosives for sale or distribution or for their own business use, such as targets for demonstration or product testing.

(U) Currently, anyone can purchase ETs without an FEL and have them shipped without expensive hazardous materials shipping fees or placards. This makes ETs relatively easy and cheap to purchase in gun stores, sporting goods stores, online marketplaces, and auction houses. ETs are also available online directly from manufacturers. Many retailers sell ETs in individual half-pound containers, which cost approximately $5 each or $10 per pound. Some manufacturers sell bulk bags of up to 50 pounds at a cost of roughly $3.50 per pound.

By comparison, fertilizer-grade ammonium nitrate retails for 19 cents per pound.
...
(U//FOUO) Individuals have attempted to acquire ammonium nitrate by removing it from cold packs, a nonregulated commercially available product. In 2010, a Knoxville, Tennessee, resident was arrested and subsequently convicted for constructing an IED using this method. Among the recovered evidence were three cold compresses and three cold compress boxes from three well known drug stores, according to FBI information.
There are videos on YouTube showing how to make Tannerite using cold packs.  The FBI report includes several incident reports that led to arrests and prison terms for abusing Tannerite.

A half pound charge of Tannerite on a car will blow the hood tens of feet into  the air.  The FBI is rightly worried about terrorists using Tannerite with blasting caps triggered by cellphones to destroy targets.  It is the explosive of choice by terrorists in Afghanistan when C4 is not available.

A 50 lb drum of Tannerite properly placed could bring down just about any building in Lincoln, destroy a power station, or a water pumping station, a wind turbine, the roof of a colosseum,  or the control room of a nuclear power station.   Tannerite doesn't burn fast, it detonates, so it doesn't need to be confined like a pressure cooker bomb would.  Had the Boston bombers used Tannerite in those devices instead of fireworks powder the death and injury count would have been a LOT higher.

Several states have outlawed Tannerite specifically because of its potential danger, and many have outlawed purchase of Ammonium Nitrate because it can be used to make so many kinds of explosives, including tannerite.   I think it is only a matter of time before most states, including  Nebraska,  make Tannerite illegal to make or possess without strict controls.    In 1970 I drove to a construction site in Council Bluffs and purchased a box of 50 sticks of 40% AN Dynamite, with a dozen electrical blasting caps to blow a dozen tree stumps out of the ground.  My only ID was the credit card I used to pay for it.  No license, no forms, nothing.   You can't do that today.

However, AN is easy to make from Urea, obtained from dried urine. Household Ammonium Hydroxide can also be reacted with urine or urea, or oxidized by itself to make AN. A determined terrorist could easily make all the AN and AL they need to construct a Tannerite explosive device.  They'd still need to find a blasting cap stronger than a No. 8 which can be set off by a cellphone answering a call.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 01:11:26 AM by GreyGeek »

Offline RLMoeller

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2013, 06:21:12 AM »
The two fellows were cited for using explosives without a license.   What else  do you need to know?

I'd like to know what explosive they were shooting.   The article does not say it was tannerite.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 07:44:41 AM by RLMoeller »

Offline CJP55401

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2013, 08:21:27 AM »
So here is a little info for all.  I live about five miles from were the 50# of tannerite was shot.  Yes it was 50# of tannerite! I live in a solid concrete house and it sounded like someone was coming through the roof.  I have a buddy that lives about six miles away in town and was standing on the deck when it went off.  He felt the shockwave before the boom at six miles.  I know one of the guys that got cited but haven't talked to him yet. >:D  I wish I knew how to post a picture of the Crater this made because it is scary.  If someone wants to PM me a cell number I will happly send them this picture.  I highly doubt that any of they people there were wearing ear muffs but I'm sure there ears are still ringing.  I tried to post the picture not sure if it will work or not.

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2013, 08:32:59 AM »
the death and injury count would have been a LOT higher.

A Chevy pickup driven into the crowd could have caused more damage. (just a matter of time until those are outlawed).

I fully support 2nd A, but have a hard time with people playing with explosive devices. Although some will play responsibly, others may not, exposing innocents to their ignorance or disregard. Rights are universal and apply to all that follow the rules. Even at that, I don't believe taking away access from law-abiding people solves a criminal use. Similar to gun control where criminal act is used to leverage general access into an overall ban.  The law makers will eventually attempt to control everything since there is only more law to make after passing another.

Offline NENick

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2013, 09:16:13 AM »
They committed a crime apparently, and were cited. The system did it's job and punished them. We're back to normal. No need to ban anything.

Offline UPCrawfish

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2013, 10:38:42 AM »
Interesting.........   I had this ad pop-up on my FB page.  Wonder why they thought I might be interested in something like this??

Business is located in Fargo, ND according to phone number search...

https://www.midwestexplodingtargets.com/index.php?route=common/home

Offline CitizenClark

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2013, 12:05:40 PM »
So here is a little info for all.  I live about five miles from were the 50# of tannerite was shot.  Yes it was 50# of tannerite! I live in a solid concrete house and it sounded like someone was coming through the roof.  I have a buddy that lives about six miles away in town and was standing on the deck when it went off.  He felt the shockwave before the boom at six miles.  I know one of the guys that got cited but haven't talked to him yet. >:D  I wish I knew how to post a picture of the Crater this made because it is scary.  If someone wants to PM me a cell number I will happly send them this picture.  I highly doubt that any of they people there were wearing ear muffs but I'm sure there ears are still ringing.  I tried to post the picture not sure if it will work or not.

At this scale, the Tannerite is not being used as a target indicator, the intended purpose of an exploding target.

Practically speaking (this is NOT legal advice), I think in a rural area you are going to be fine popping off at exploding targets that use the typical 1/2 lb quantity of... ahem... active ingredients.

Offline CitizenClark

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2013, 12:38:39 PM »
I fully support 2nd A, but have a hard time with people playing with explosive devices. Although some will play responsibly, others may not, exposing innocents to their ignorance or disregard.

And themselves. The guy I bought my house from lost both hands as a teenager due to a homemade pipe bomb blast. His femoral artery was damaged too, but he was blessed to have an ER nurse as a next-door neighbor and survived.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 03:05:45 PM by CitizenClark »

Offline Chris C

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2013, 02:27:30 PM »
OK 50lbs explains it a little better.  The news didn’t do to good of a job getting all the facts.  Should have also done their due diligence in getting crater shots like posted above.  I have seen homemade Tannerite recipes online.  I wonder if they used one of those or bought the pre made stuff which would have been really expensive. 

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2013, 10:35:28 PM »
https://www.midwestexplodingtargets.com/index.php?route=common/home

Wow!   Explosive targets add $5 to $7 per shot!   With prices like that the cost of bullets  is immaterial.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Exploding Targets Lead to Citation
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2013, 11:10:46 PM »
A Chevy pickup driven into the crowd could have caused more damage. (just a matter of time until those are outlawed).

Not even close. 

First, the supersonic pressure wave would kill everyone standing within 50 feet, perhaps farther.   Secondly, as per the Boston bomb, the surrounding shrapnel would be sprayed in all directions and be lethal up to 100 yards.   Placed in the same position as the pressure cooker bomb, a 50 lb tannerite bomb would probably have killed 50 or more (compared to 3) and injured as many, more likely more, than the pressure cooker bomb.

While Tannerite can not be detonated with less than high  powered rifle rounds, it can be detonated with primers and booster charges; Picric Acid, Ammonium or Potassium Perchlorate, various fulminates, etc...   All easy to make.   I suspect that even Nitrogen Tri-Iodide would set Tannerite off because it detonates, but it is as dangerous  as Acetone Peroxide (TCPA).  However, NI3 is stable when wet,  TCPA is not.

Even if Tannerite were outlawed it would have been a waste of legislative time.  It would be easy to take ordinary household Ammonia and add Epsom Salts to it.    2NH4OH + MgSO4 --> (NH4)2SO4 + Mg(OH)2 (which precipitates out).  Then,  pick the Ca(NO3)2 from Drano (the solid version with Sodium Hydroxie pellets and Aluminum chips in it) and add the Calcium Nitrate to the Ammonium Sulfate.  Calcium Sulfate precipitates out, leaving Ammonium Nitrate.  With that you can make any Ammonium based explosives.  BTW, I'm not giving away any national secrets or divulging sensitive information to terrorists.  They have PhD is Chemistry and Physics among their numbers who disseminate this information to their fellow terrorists.   

Forty years ago the "Jolly Roger Cookbook", a variation of the "Anarchists Cookbook" contained a lot of this and similar information in it.  Most people ignored  it, as they do Tannerite today, but a lot of immature people and kids played with the info in those books, most of it dangerously wrong, and did damage to themselves.  The kids didn't know, for example, that while making Nitroglycerine,  the temperature has to  be kept below 10C or volumes of poisonous Nitrogen  Dioxide would be generated, damaging their lungs and eyes permanently.   Or that if they were able to produce Nitroglycerine they weren't told to neutralize  the acidity of it with Sodium Bicarbonate to make it stable.  They also weren't told that a single drop of it was more powerful than an M80.   Lot's of fingers and eyes disappeared while playing with it. 

I suspect that sooner or later some bozo is going to kill themselves or someone else playing with Tannerite.