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Author Topic: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?  (Read 10909 times)

Offline JTH

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At the NFOA meeting, during the Defensive Shooting workshop, one of the things I talked about was "recognizing the situation in time to get your gun out" and how that meant "having a quick and solid draw" in terms of fundamental shooting skills.  Remember that?

Read this:   http://pistol-training.com/archives/8501

New research, studied over 1100 cases of police reactions in lethal-level altercations.  And you know what?

Two seconds.

In over 90% of lethal-level altercations, police officers had 2 seconds or less in which to react.  In other words, not 2 seconds to determine it was lethal-level, but after that determination, 2 seconds to react effectively to it.

So---what's YOUR draw time?

(I note:  I have NOT read the study referenced there.  I've seen the abstract, but I don't have access to the original article.  I'm debating buying it...  And, I'll note, there is a difference between law enforcement needs, and standard citizen needs.  That being said---what IS your draw time?)
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 07:43:04 AM »
At what distance?  I assume this is the time needed to put one shot into an 8" circle. 

At the NFOA event I managed 2.3 something.  I think that was at 7 yards?
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 01:03:35 PM »
At what distance?  I assume this is the time needed to put one shot into an 8" circle. 

At the NFOA event I managed 2.3 something.  I think that was at 7 yards?

12" plate, 10 yards.

Due to the fact that the research was done on law enforcement altercations, and (in general) the mean distance is about 9-15 feet, my take on this is that officers had to get their first shots off at 4 yards (average!) in two seconds from a retention holster once it went lethal-force level.

Those carrying concealed have a plus there without the retention.  :)

While a lot of people use an 8" circle for "accurate enough for self-defense," personally I'd say to get a realistic idea of what you can do, use a 6" circle at 3 yards, or an 8" at 5 yards.  (I'll note that I don't think that this is really stringent enough for effective shot placement in actual stress situations, but it'll at least get you on target in the basic area and give you an idea.)

Don't only practice "draw to one shot", but instead practice draw to four shots (or three, or five---vary this) making sure you get all shots in the circle, and THEN check your draw-to-first-shot time.

Do I think that having a fast draw makes you safe?  Nope.  Do I think that having a fast, practiced draw gives you a better chance?  Certainly.

If you have a 5 second draw (or more), you might think about this.

(Lorimor, are you still going with Glock?  Or have you moved back to 1911?  You liking that new holster?)
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Offline bullit

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 02:40:21 PM »
Who was running the stop watch in the a fore referred to gun fights?

Offline JTH

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 03:11:52 PM »
Who was running the stop watch in the a fore referred to gun fights?

I'm pretty sure you are going to have to read the original research for that answer.  :)
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 05:34:41 PM »
I'm pretty sure you are going to have to read the original research for that answer.  :)

Probably cruiser cams?

Fly
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Offline AWick

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 06:22:14 PM »
The afternoon Steel Challenge at the NFOA meeting was my first timed firing run and as I don't have the shot timer, I do have a GoPro and editing software to isolate each frame. For my first go at the Steel Challenge I managed a 1.8 second "beep-to-bang" reaction, with an average of about 0.8-0.9 between shots on a new steel target. This of course was with my best couple of runs, but my first time shooting my new pistol. I hadn't had a chance to get out to the range before the meeting and the Steel Challenge course was literally the first time I put a round downrange.

This definitely was a learning experience and I am REALLY looking to make some time to do more practice and hopefully attend a training class from PRT AND MWTS!
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline JTH

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 07:55:17 PM »
For my first go at the Steel Challenge I managed a 1.8 second "beep-to-bang" reaction, with an average of about 0.8-0.9 between shots on a new steel target.
That's quite good for a first-time attempt, particularly the draw-to-first-shot.  There is a 6-stage Steel Challenge match coming up at ENGC in October, by the way....  :)

...and there is also a full 8-stage official Steel Challenge match in Grand Island on the 15th of this month.  (Have they advertised that here yet?)

Shooting steel is addictive.

Quote
This definitely was a learning experience and I am REALLY looking to make some time to do more practice and hopefully attend a training class from PRT AND MWTS!
:)

{brief advertisement}We have an HT class (working shooting skills) coming up on Sept 20-12.  See the post in the Firearms Training sub-forum for details...{end brief advertisement}

Back on topic...

Claude Werner, just today on Facebook, said:
"The Dunning-Kruger Effect; something firearms instructors deal with on a regular basis. It's one reason I like to introduce a skills based performance test early in my classes, although I usually do it informally. Without being subjected to some kind of performance standard, many people, including the vast majority of men, will continue to wallow in their own incompetence."

One of the comments added to that was:
"I've noticed instructing at the local range that being born in America with a penis automatically makes you a capable shooter."

...it is amazing how many people think that.    Apparently many males think that, by virtue of their gender and having watched lots of action movies, they automatically both know how to shoot, AND are really really good at it.

(The Dunning-Kruger Effect:  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect    --this article references "Unskilled and Unaware of It" which is an article/research study that I have my advanced science students read every year.)

Why do I push competition so much?  (Other than because it is a ton of fun?) Because for most people, it is the FIRST clue they are ever going to get that they are not as good as they think they are---AND that getting much much better is possible.

Plinking at soda cans at 10 feet with a .22 doesn't make you a good shooter.  And getting a 4-inch group at 10 yards with a revolver shot single action doesn't mean you have sufficient skills for effective self-defense.  (And it certainly doesn't mean you have the knowledge.)

Competition is one way to find out---it gives you a metric against which to measure your shooting.  Taking a class from someone (not the state class, that isn't a technique class) regarding effective techique for CCW is another way.  Getting yourself a timer (or downloading the Surefire Shot Timer free for your iPhone) and running some range tests is another way.

What's your draw time, from concealment, to a 6" plate at 3 yards?

(I note:  if you just shoot for fun, and you aren't interested in pistol skills for self-defense, keep plinking at cans.  It's a good time.  :)  )

Hmm...you know what?  I don't actually know what my time is right now for that particular skill.  I know what it USED to be---but I haven't timed it recently.  I may have to do that.  And yes, I'll post what it looked like and how much I screwed up.
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Offline greg58

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2013, 10:53:11 PM »
My time at the NFOA meeting was my first experience with timed shooting as well. I have always been a backyard plinker, shoot some bluerocks etc.
I found out I was not as competent as I would have liked with my concealed carry gun, I was much better with my 22 target pistol.
I have been thinking about trying steel challenge again, and would like to build some steel targets for home practice.
Thanks for letting me try something new and fun.
Greg58
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Offline bullit

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 06:33:10 AM »
Why do I push competition so much?

Because you like to argue with Shawn???

Back to the article, the scientist in me always gets a little skeptical when spouting a "firm" statistic like "2 seconds" when in reality they have no idea because they weren't there ((that's called hearsay in the courtroom), especially as referenced in the article you linked.  I am NOT discounting the premise of your topic mind you....fast and ON TARGET matters.  "There are no missed, only unintended hits". -Tom Givens 


Offline JTH

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 08:51:10 AM »
Because you like to argue with Shawn???

I do like to argue.  But I also happen to think that Shawn is completely wrong on that topic.  :)  (Particularly given stats on what really happens in the majority of defensive gun uses.)

Quote
Back to the article, the scientist in me always gets a little skeptical when spouting a "firm" statistic like "2 seconds" when in reality they have no idea because they weren't there ((that's called hearsay in the courtroom), especially as referenced in the article you linked.  I am NOT discounting the premise of your topic mind you....fast and ON TARGET matters.  "There are no missed, only unintended hits". -Tom Givens 

Understandable, and I'd have to see their actual research data to say whether or not it has much basis in fact.  That being said, the original was "less than 2 seconds" and "90% of the altercations" which makes it a little less strident and absolute as a statement.

Someone earlier here made a good comment that in this day and age, dash cams and microphones actually can give us a good idea of the time frame, as opposed to later guesswork based on hearsay.  Like I said, I'll be interested to see what their actual data is based upon.  However, given current technology, I'm thinking that at least some of their data should actually be factual, as opposed to anecdotal.  I wonder how much?  1100 lethal-level altercations is quite a lot, so I'm also curious as to the range of their data.  (Both in time, and in area.)

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Offline wusker

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 09:00:49 AM »
great video on the draw stroke. when he puts Cory under pressure for the first time he hits under 2 seconds and it looks slow, within a couple minutes of instruction, Ron Avery gets him on target, live fire in under a 1 sec! Good video and travis haley or his instructors usually teach me something
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 09:12:08 AM by wusker »

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 09:49:11 AM »


(Lorimor, are you still going with Glock?  Or have you moved back to 1911?  You liking that new holster?)

Still have the 19 but I haven't got the front sight height nailed down just yet.  I put a 10-8 Performance rear on it but I haven't decided on the front and have yet to determine the proper height.  I have the plastic "file down" to fit front sight on hand but haven't gotten around to setting it up.

Besides, I have the Vickers 1911 class coming up later this month, so I'm obviously concentrating on the 1911 right now.  :)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 11:27:42 AM »
Still have the 19 but I haven't got the front sight height nailed down just yet.  I put a 10-8 Performance rear on it but I haven't decided on the front and have yet to determine the proper height.  I have the plastic "file down" to fit front sight on hand but haven't gotten around to setting it up.

Plastic front sights shear off very easily....that's pretty much the real reason I detest Glock sights.  The rear--isn't great, but I can live with it. (Yes, I know, it is ALSO plastic.  But it tends to run into things less, and most holsters don't touch the rear sight.) That stock front sight, though, gets thrown off the minute I get something else that isn't plastic.

Are you having significant trouble with the front sight height making your aiming point off?  (I've used standard Warren Tacticals on four different Glocks now--34, 17, 19, and 26---and haven't had any issues with POA/POI differences, while just throwing the sights on and calling it good.)
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Offline bullit

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 12:28:09 PM »
Still have the 19 but I haven't got the front sight height nailed down just yet.  I put a 10-8 Performance rear on it but I haven't decided on the front and have yet to determine the proper height.  I have the plastic "file down" to fit front sight on hand but haven't gotten around to setting it up.

Besides, I have the Vickers 1911 class coming up later this month, so I'm obviously concentrating on the 1911 right now.  :)


Oh Brother....Lorimor shooting a Glock?  Might as well give the guy the keys to the USS Kitty Hawk.....

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 04:47:21 PM »
Oh Brother....Lorimor shooting a Glock?  Might as well give the guy the keys to the USS Kitty Hawk.....

It's dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!

Fly
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Offline abbafandr

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2013, 06:41:49 PM »
Oh Brother....Lorimor shooting a Glock?

Is that a bad thing? :-\

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2013, 08:05:53 PM »
Plastic front sights shear off very easily....that's pretty much the real reason I detest Glock sights.  The rear--isn't great, but I can live with it. (Yes, I know, it is ALSO plastic.  But it tends to run into things less, and most holsters don't touch the rear sight.) That stock front sight, though, gets thrown off the minute I get something else that isn't plastic.

Are you having significant trouble with the front sight height making your aiming point off?  (I've used standard Warren Tacticals on four different Glocks now--34, 17, 19, and 26---and haven't had any issues with POA/POI differences, while just throwing the sights on and calling it good.)

The "file down" plastic front sight I'm referring to is another 10-8 product, designed to be a temporary install and sanded to fit so that the proper height can be determined.  With the 10-8 rear sight (a nice rugged, 4140 damn near bulletproof hunk of steel with a great "shelf" built-in for one handed manipulations) the original (I think .215" front) shot high for me.  I got a taller one but it's too tall. 

I read that Glock sights generally print 2" high at 25 yds.  I'd rather my POI be dead on there if possible.  I like the "combat sight picture."   

But never fear guys, I'm merely toying with the Glock.  No matter what I try, it just doesn't give me that "where have you been all my life" feeling when I grip it.  I think I could learn to live with it, if I had to... I guess.


But the CQB just feels like it belongs in my hand. :)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bullit

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 07:17:35 AM »
abbafandr...you are not privy to our history, Lorimor and me.   He correctly believes that the 1911 is THE epitome of handguns for self defense.  I for one happen to agree, although for the past 3 years my daily carry has been either a G19 RTF or G23 RTF.  That being said, I continue to bust his chops because of his staunch and unrelenting beliefs (until now maybe ?).  Furthermore, his wardrobe consists mainly of Thunder Ranch t-shirts, Ho Chi Minh flip flops and a WWCD (What Would Clint Do?) bracelet......and he's a fellow Navy ship mate....he just might cave in and sell me that worthless Wilson he owns too.....Did I mention he has a poster of the Columbus Police Chief above his bed?

Offline JTH

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2013, 03:02:11 PM »
He correctly believes that the 1911 is THE epitome of handguns for self defense from 1911 until 1985 or so, though not really after, in part due to improvements in bullet technology.

Fixed that for you.  :)

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I for one happen to agree, although for the past 3 years my daily carry has been either a G19 RTF or G23 RTF.

Because you prefer to carry a non-optimal pistol instead.  :P 
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