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Author Topic: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?  (Read 10686 times)

Offline JTH

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2013, 11:22:47 AM »
People are using all sorts of different distances and targets---and that's fine.  This isn't a competition, so we aren't trying to see how can crowd the timer the most.  :)

The point is, how can you make good defensive choices if you don't know your draw?  A guy is 15 feet away and starts moving toward you with an impact weapon.

Do you draw? 
Draw and move?
Flat-out run away?
Do you close and work empty hand defense?

Which do you choose?  How's your sprinting ability?  Do you have any empty-hand practice?  Is your draw fast enough to make a difference?  Is your shooting on the move accurate enough?

Working shooting skills on a timer won't tell you how you will do under life-and-death stress, of course.  (And hopefully, you'll never need to find out.) But it WILL tell you if you don't have any chance at all.

If the guy has a baseball bat, is starting to accelerate at you from 15 feet away, and your draw (whether moving or not) is 3 seconds----then you need to either close and work empty-hand, or you need to flat-out run.  Maybe you can draw as you run, but your normal draw is just too slow.  Unless the guy stops on seeing your hand movement, he is going to reach you before you get the gun out---and there you will be, with your hands occupied at waist level when he is swinging a bat at your head.

If you don't know your skill level, then you can't make appropriate defensive decisions---unless purely by accident.  And personally, I don't like to leave my life to chance.

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Offline abbafandr

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2013, 06:26:31 PM »
If the guy has a baseball bat, is starting to accelerate at you from 15 feet away, and your draw (whether moving or not) is 3 seconds----then you need to either close and work empty-hand, or you need to flat-out run.  Maybe you can draw as you run, but your normal draw is just too slow.  Unless the guy stops on seeing your hand movement, he is going to reach you before you get the gun out---and there you will be, with your hands occupied at waist level when he is swinging a bat at your head.

Not a pleasant scenario.  The truth of the matter is your chances (mine at least) of stopping someone at that distance with a handgun are slim and none and Slim may be on his way  out of town.  You would have to sever the spinal cord with a bullet to stop him.  Most self defense ammo is designed to stop IN! the body to prevent collateral damage from over penetration.  (Ask NYPD or any agency that has had problem with ball ammo injuring bystanders ) :o

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2013, 07:20:59 PM »
According to most anti-gunners you should just take out your cell phone and dial 911.

Offline abbafandr

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2013, 07:29:46 PM »
According to most anti-gunners you should just take out your cell phone and dial 911.


Let me know how that works out.  :laugh:

Offline kozball

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2013, 09:49:15 PM »
According to most anti-gunners you should just take out your cell phone and dial 911.

Jimmy Johns?
\"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn\'t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.\"

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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2013, 05:46:16 AM »
15 feet away, armed with a baseball bat, even a semi-athletic dude has the upper hand on you in that situation, regardless of your skills and/or armament.   

It's not an unwinnable situation but darn close to it. 

They've planned a very good ambush or you weren't paying attention.  Or both.

At my age, I don't believe I'm going to outrun most folk but I can become a moving target.  I guess I'd start sidestepping as fast as possible, drawing, yelling and hopefully bring the gun to bear in time and shoot if necessary.

But I just don't know if there would be time for all that if he's that close, moving fast and closing. :( 

Hopefully the act of engaging in a defensive posture and starting a draw stroke alone would put them off. 




"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline SeanN

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2013, 09:26:16 AM »
Not a pleasant scenario.  The truth of the matter is your chances (mine at least) of stopping someone at that distance with a handgun are slim and none and Slim may be on his way  out of town.  You would have to sever the spinal cord with a bullet to stop him.  Most self defense ammo is designed to stop IN! the body to prevent collateral damage from over penetration.  (Ask NYPD or any agency that has had problem with ball ammo injuring bystanders ) :o

I don't know of any self-defense ammo that I would trust that is designed to "stop in the body of a bad guy." All of the ammo I would trust has made the FBI recommended penetration depth of 12" in properly calibrated ballistic gel. I wouldn't trust any ammo designed to "stop overpenetration." Decades of ballistics testing has taught us that any round that will not "overpenetrate" through interior walls or other "soft" barriers will not penetrate enough to reliably physiologically (in contrast to psychologically) incapacitate a target.

The reason NYPD or other law enforcement agencies have a problem with collateral damage isn't because of overpenetration. It's because the average police officer misses 80% of his/her shots when looking at officer involved shooting statistics. Whether that's because of inadequate training or lax qualification requirements is another discussion entirely.

I also disagree that your chances are slim to none... If you move away from your attacker and get the gun out fast and get shots on target, your chances are pretty decent. Obviously more range is preferred. But this is why we should all practice drawing from concealment and using a timer to get it to be FAST. Research has shown that to "win" in a self-defense scenario you really only need to do three things: React quickly, get the gun out fast, and get shots on target fast.

I know I need a lot more work. My average draw from concealment to first shot is around 1.3-1.5 seconds at a close range target... My holster is great for concealment but it holds the gun to my body so tightly that getting the initial grip on the gun is a challenge... It may be time to research a new holster.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 09:28:25 AM by SeanN »

Offline SeanN

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2013, 09:28:54 AM »
Jimmy Johns?

They'd probably get there faster!

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2013, 10:54:52 AM »
They'd probably get there faster!
As long as there's bacon on the sammiches.  Bacon makes everything better.

I really need to invest in a training system like the LASR system.  Practicing drawing from concealment and dry firing is great, but some target feedback would be immensely helpful.  Just like in competition, you can't miss fast enough to win.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2013, 11:49:37 AM »
Bacon makes everything better.

Agreed.  Stealing a partial quote from King of Queens..."I'd eat my own foot if it had bacon on it".

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline abbafandr

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2013, 06:24:01 PM »
I also disagree that your chances are slim to none... If you move away from your attacker and get the gun out fast and get shots on target, your chances are pretty decent. Obviously more range is preferred. But this is why we should all practice drawing from concealment and using a timer to get it to be FAST. Research has shown that to "win" in a self-defense scenario you really only need to do three things: React quickly, get the gun out fast, and get shots on target fast.

To clarify my view.  In this situation, the dude with a baseball bat 15 feet and closing fast, if your only plan is to draw your handgun and shoot and stop him, I don't like the chances for most people. 
1) Most people couldn't even draw the gun fast enough in that time, let alone under this situation.
2) Unfortunately, people don't drop like steel poppers when they are hit by a bullet.

That being said, I would have no intention standing there, doing my best baseball imitation :)

Offline AWick

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2013, 04:41:53 PM »
For the scenario you listed, JTH, one must take evasive maneuvers while drawing or run, REALLY FAST! Maybe a tactical ground roll somersault... you should probably make sure you are as tactical as a tactical operator can be, in beast mode!

All joking aside though, learning to draw on the move (side step, backing up, lunging out of the way) I think would be an important skill for such a situation.
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline abbafandr

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Re: Remember at the NFOA meeting when I said "get the gun out in time"?
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2013, 06:03:48 AM »
Went to the range and tried drawing from concealment, two types, pocket and IWB hip.
The wife was timing me with the downloaded timer apps.  This almost caused serious relationship strain... until I figured out that the timers were picking other shots.  I asked her to stop after 4 or 5 shots and when I checked the string there would 7 or more.  She insisted that she was hitting the button.
One of them kept showing an ad saying the phone was infected and I needed to download something to cure it. 
I tried all 3 apps I downloaded.  They would probably be fine IF I was the only one shooting.
Basically, I got what I paid for.  So I didn't really learn squat about draw times.  A timer is in order.