Hot water options for Off grid/SHTF

[ProtoPatriot]

Here is a great way to have hot water and maximize resources, instead of doing to old pot-over-the-fire deal that would require a lot more time and a lot more wood.

I saw this video and found it a nice setup, though maybe some form of insulation around the water pipes to minimize heat loss during travel.

This is a low volume system, though with the water heater being used to store the water, you could probably use a windmill system to increase the flow (though of course you would then need some kind of elevated water supply such as a water tower).




Any other ideas people have had or came across?

[GreyGeek]

The key to it is that highly efficient "Rocket stove".  Those stoves are easy to make, essentially smokeless, and very efficient -- less heat is wasted going out the stack and volatile gases are burned as well as the charcoal.   YouTube is filled with videos of DYI rocket stoves, and commercial ones as well, like the one used in your video.

One should  be  careful in that setup to avoid steam formation, which means that dissolved solids are precipitating out inside the pipe to form scale.  If the scale blocks the pipe an explosion will result.    One can add a DC powered water pump inline with the copper tubing to circulate the water between the tank and the coil, stopping the process when the tank temperature reaches 110F or what ever.   The water pump can be powered by a electric thermocouple attached to the side of the stove pipe to draw energy from the heat of the flue gases.

[ProtoPatriot]

Good points GreyGeek...especially the scale buildup issue, though no matter what you will have to deal with some buildup, but best to deal with it in the storage container than the piping... maintaining some pressure in the system would help with some of it, enough so no steam occurs in the pipes. Though I think he had it like that for demonstration purposes, he said he had modifications and finishing touches (tweaks) to make. I do think a horizontal coil would be much better than a vertical (less fighting with gravity).

Was thinking of what can be made easily on the fly out of household items... a thermoelectric generator capable of running much (let alone one to run a decent enough pump with good flow rate) is not exactly an item easily made at home by most people, where as a windmill would be much simpler. So, unless you have found a way to do so out of regular home supplies and generate enough voltage/amps/watts (most homemade DIY TEGs only getting around 6 volts and 1 watt from what I can find), I don't see it as much of a viable option as charging the battery would take a long time.

Yep, you can make a "rocket stove" relatively easily and they are great.

Though the whole "rocket stove" thing brings to mind of possibly using a Franklin stove design (in order to more effectively trap the heat longer...not to mention less noticeable smoke coming out) -- could maybe run the coil directly through the actual system instead of just around the outside (though soot buildup may become an issue, will have to look more into this...).

[Mudinyeri]

I have plans for a much larger "rocket stove" wood-fired water heater but have yet to build it.

You can be off the grid and use propane to heat water.  Much easier.

[GreyGeek]

One can attach a TEG to the side of the stove pipe.
http://tegpower.com/

There are cheap ones at Amazon for under $10 that generate 90W at 12 volts, but they aren't built very well and don't last long.  Call them experimental units.

[ProtoPatriot]

One can attach a TEG to the side of the stove pipe.
http://tegpower.com/

There are cheap ones at Amazon for under $10 that generate 90W at 12 volts, but they aren't built very well and don't last long.  Call them experimental units.

That is true...but what I was meaning was DIY homemade (meaning no purchasing, make things put of materials already in homes).

Anything is possible when you have the option to purchase, but for those that dont have the money to spare or there is no longer any way to purchase things...its best to be able to build it yourself out of things you already have.

self-reliance is key.

[ProtoPatriot]

I have plans for a much larger "rocket stove" wood-fired water heater but have yet to build it.

You can be off the grid and use propane to heat water.  Much easier.

and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?

[GreyGeek]

and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?

Probably  the best source of methane known to man -- manure.    Human, pig, cows,

[ProtoPatriot]

Probably  the best source of methane known to man -- manure.    Human, pig, cows,

Well that could work if you have a compost waste system instead of septic...just have to have a way to trap and pressurize it.

[Mudinyeri]

and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?

You said "off grid" not "end of the world as we know it, no way to replenish resources".

[Phantom]

and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?

Use a Solar Water heater maybe ?

[ProtoPatriot]

You said "off grid" not "end of the world as we know it, no way to replenish resources"

I also said SHTF....good luck replenishing resources during that. So, yes, propane great as long as everything stays up and running. Though, I guess it's just me, I don't want repetitive costs... don't want to have to keep spending money to replenish things I could provide, make, or repair myself. Hence why GreyGeek's suggestion of methane would be great since you solve 2 issues in one: fuel and waste disposal through a anaerobic "compost" system (compost systems are aerobic thus require air, to generate methane, air must be minimized/removed)...however, I wonder if the quantity of gas being generated would be high and fast enough. (of course, as I think of this, you would also need someway to seal things off, because the smell will be horrible..not to mention the waste left over afterward would need disposal, might be able to use it as fertilizer, but not sure.)

EDIT: I found this article/video that shows how someone did it, but they don't go into quantities: http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/methane-biodigester-how-to

Don't you find we pay entirely too much time after time? Just really don't like "subscription"/"rent" type things.

Also, isn't the whole point of going "off the grid" to save money, be more self-reliant, self-sustainable and stop having others provide things for you thus creating an unhealthy dependency? So, I would say, use of propane would make it so you would still be "on the grid."

Use a Solar Water heater maybe ?

That is definitely another, less noticeable way...though only really effective during the day, making night time bathing/cleaning difficult (but I guess you could just boil as you need over a regular fire and bath during the day). Simple to make too: some wood, glass, pipe, maybe some aluminum foil to increase effectiveness.

Probably comes down to a need for a hybrid of systems. A wood/matter burning stove and a solar system....though someway to generate electricity would be useful; maybe by windmill, hydroelectric, steam-turbine...something.

[Mudinyeri]

I also said SHTF....good luck replenishing resources during that. So, yes, propane great as long as everything stays up and running. Though, I guess it's just me, I don't want repetitive costs... don't want to have to keep spending money to replenish things I could provide, make, or repair myself.

OK, for the sake of discussion, let's say that SHTF means no more propane - even though current propane storage would last for years - and you have to fuel your water heater with wood.

How much wood have you processed without the benefit of gasoline?  Do you own a two-man felling saw, two-man crosscut saw, splitting wedge and have the time to make kindling as small as that in the photo in your OP?  Do you have any idea how much wood you would use in a day?  Do you also plan to use wood to heat with in the winter?

Hot water, for bathing or washing clothes or dishes, can easily be produced by putting a pot on top of the wood heating stove while heating your home during the winter.

Solar is OK, but - unless you utilize it to produce electricity to power an electric water heater - isn't going to produce particularly hot water.  Anyone who's ever owned an electric water heater knows how (in)efficient that is.

In-line propane-powered water heaters are exceptionally efficient.

[ProtoPatriot]

OK, for the sake of discussion, let's say that SHTF means no more propane - even though current propane storage would last for years -

SHTF = No utilities, no access to stores of any kind (no groceries, no gas stations, no clothing stores, no restaurants, etc.), no gasoline, no propane....all the luxuries we have enjoyed go bye bye.

Ok, so you will be stockpiling propane?

Do you know how much propane you would use in a day? How about the increased amount during the winter? How will you gain access to such storages of propane if they were accessible at all?

Also, how will you transport said propane from the storage location, they weigh quite a bit? Not to mention, how many others are you going to have to fight off going after the exact same thing? And last, do you believe you will be able to afford it?

and you have to fuel your water heater with wood.

And?

The water heater is just being used as a storage container, the stove does the heating. Not a big deal.

How much wood have you processed without the benefit of gasoline?  Do you own a two-man felling saw, two-man crosscut saw, splitting wedge and have the time to make kindling as small as that in the photo in your OP?  Do you have any idea how much wood you would use in a day?  Do you also plan to use wood to heat with in the winter?

How many years was wood used before gases and such came along?
How many years was wood gathered before two-man saws and such came along?

I have cut down plenty of trees over the years with an axe (and yes, if need be an axe can be made in the home easily enough and so can a basic saw). Does a chainsaw make it easier, sure...but necessary it is not.

When you are supplying only wood for yourself/family and a small shelter, it doesn't take much to heat the place (also, if need be, gather everyone into a single room and you will be able to extend your resources). Also, using a rocket stove or other such efficient stoves, it doesn't take much wood to make a lot of heat.

An axe/hatchet/handsaw can easily produce the the kindling that size... in fact I did so just the other day, they don't have to be all perfectly straight or equal thicknesses, just small enough to fit several in there. Also, a good bayonet/kabar is great for splitting wood into smaller pieces.

All the same things you would do during the rest of the year you would still do during the winter. Now, of course, to ease the winter, it would be wise to have a large pile of wood on hand, which is easy enough to do.

People are way too dependent on technology, they can no longer see past it or doing anything without it. People survived many years without such unnecessary luxuries...

Hot water, for bathing or washing clothes or dishes, can easily be produced by putting a pot on top of the wood heating stove while heating your home during the winter.

Yes, it can as recognized earlier, would it be as quick or efficient...no it wouldn't. But the rest of the year do you really want that wood stove running? Winter sure, it's already running, but the rest of the year it would smother you out of the house/shelter.

Solar is OK, but - unless you utilize it to produce electricity to power an electric water heater - isn't going to produce particularly hot water.  Anyone who's ever owned an electric water heater knows how (in)efficient that is.

Sure, solar won't make the hottest water, but it will be hot enough to bath comfortably in and clean things...and as recognized, has it's limitations as heating stops at night and has to start all over the next morning, plus you have account for ambient temperatures.

Solar electricity...great as it is, not able to build in your home and also limited during winter/overcast days.

So, yes, a combo system. Solar Water Heater for use during the day (late spring through early fall) and a wood stove water heater for night and the winter.

In-line propane-powered water heaters are exceptionally efficient.

No one said they weren't, but you are still dependent on the "grid" (or would you rather the word "system" be used instead?) and others providing you resources.

[GreyGeek]

EDIT: I found this article/video that shows how someone did it, but they don't go into quantities: http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/methane-biodigester-how-to

There is so much wrong with what that guy  was trying to do it is hard to know where to being....

First, one pound of dry manure will supply between 2 and 8 cubic feet of Methane, depending on its quality.   About 10%  of manure is "ash", and of the remaining "volatiles" only about half is digested to Methane.    The slug buildup in the digester shown  in the video would shut it down within a few months.   There is no way to tear it apart for cleaning.   The guy learned quickly that there is a ratio of Carbon and Nitrogen that must be maintained for proper digestion.  It is the same ratio that goes into making good compost piles.   A compost pile would be good for a Methane digester except that it doesn't have sufficient Methane producing bacteria and it needs to be ground into almost dust and mixed with water.  That's why cow, pig and chicken manure is the best material to use.  Here is a table I found which gives the approximate Methane producing capabilities.  A "unit" is 1,000 lbs of animal. From the table the manure most efficient in generating Methane is chicken manure.

Code: [Select]

Animal units MBTU/yr MBTU/yr/unit
Fattened Cattle 9.6 89.9 9.3
Milk Cows 12.3 92.1 7.5
Swine 8.5 124 14.6
Poultry 6.1 125 20.5

The gas produced in a Methane generator usually contains 60-70% methane, 30-40% carbon dioxide, and 1-2% hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic.   A  leak of biogas into living quarters  could silently kill the occupants because H2S anesthetizes the nose at lethal concentrations, so one wouldn't want a pilot light burning.

H2S burns to form Sulfur Dioxide gas, which reacts with moisture in the air to form Sulfuric Acid, the principal component of acid rain.  It is very corrosive to metals and lungs.  To scrub the H2S from the biogas in a SHTF scenario the easiest way to make a scrubber would be to bubble the biogas through a solution of white ash made  from burned wood, which  contains Lye.  That would also remove the CO2 from the gas.  Boiling a solution of white wood ash and animal fat produces "Ivory" soap.   White ash  is the white powdery remains of a wood fire that doesn't contain unburned Carbon, i.e., charcoal.   A Warm Morning wood burning stove creates good piles of white ash, more like a gray talcum powder.

My family and I lived out in the country, 5 miles from the nearest village of 500, where I taught science and math.   When the Arab oil embargo hit in 1972 Propane became so expensive that I switched to a coal burning stove, which was almost a disaster.  Too hard to control the temp.   Switching to wood and using a 21" chain saw my son and I would cut dead wood every Wednesday and Saturday, filling the trunk of a Ford Fairlane 500 junker that I drove specifically for that purpose.  The house we lived in was the oldest in Merrick County, built in 1887, mainly out of Cotton Wood.   It was not insulated.  Four Mesquite logs about 5-6" in diameter and 18" long would keep the two story house warm all night in the middle of January.  About 250 of those logs make a cord.    In my experience burning wood from October to March I burned about 2 to 2 1/2 cord of  Mesquite.   Ash was good (3 - 3 1/2 cord),  Chinese Elm acceptable (took 4 - 4 1/2 cord).   Chinese Elm was the most common wood, besides Cottonwood.   Ceder was poor because it had too much hydrocarbon volatiles and burned up too quickly, leaving a lot of soot in the stove pipe.   Cottonwood was terrible, and it is impossible to split.   Using just 6" diameter branches it would take, I'd guess, 10 - 15 cord to heat the house.   You'll use Ceder and Cottonwood only once.    Mesquite is very hard, and after cutting though an 18" diameter log three or four times I'd have to get out the sharpener and sharpen the chain.

I had an advantage because a LOT of farms had tree lots behind their houses, or nearby, which were planted when farmers heated and cooked with wood and had to keep a nearby supply handy.  After propane arrived the wood lots were neglected and were full of a lot of dead, dry wood.  Just perfect for me.   I was often asked to come by and "clean out" an old wood lot.   However, after about five years a LOT of folks were beginning to burn wood and those wood lots were seen as another income source.  That was about the time I quit teaching and started my computer consulting business.

[Mudinyeri]

SHTF = No utilities, no access to stores of any kind (no groceries, no gas stations, no clothing stores, no restaurants, etc.), no gasoline, no propane....all the luxuries we have enjoyed go bye bye.

Ok, so you will be stockpiling propane?

Do you know how much propane you would use in a day? How about the increased amount during the winter? How will you gain access to such storages of propane if they were accessible at all?

Also, how will you transport said propane from the storage location, they weigh quite a bit? Not to mention, how many others are you going to have to fight off going after the exact same thing? And last, do you believe you will be able to afford it?

And?

The water heater is just being used as a storage container, the stove does the heating. Not a big deal.

How many years was wood used before gases and such came along?
How many years was wood gathered before two-man saws and such came along?

I have cut down plenty of trees over the years with an axe (and yes, if need be an axe can be made in the home easily enough and so can a basic saw). Does a chainsaw make it easier, sure...but necessary it is not.

When you are supplying only wood for yourself/family and a small shelter, it doesn't take much to heat the place (also, if need be, gather everyone into a single room and you will be able to extend your resources). Also, using a rocket stove or other such efficient stoves, it doesn't take much wood to make a lot of heat.

An axe/hatchet/handsaw can easily produce the the kindling that size... in fact I did so just the other day, they don't have to be all perfectly straight or equal thicknesses, just small enough to fit several in there. Also, a good bayonet/kabar is great for splitting wood into smaller pieces.

All the same things you would do during the rest of the year you would still do during the winter. Now, of course, to ease the winter, it would be wise to have a large pile of wood on hand, which is easy enough to do.

People are way too dependent on technology, they can no longer see past it or doing anything without it. People survived many years without such unnecessary luxuries...

Yes, it can as recognized earlier, would it be as quick or efficient...no it wouldn't. But the rest of the year do you really want that wood stove running? Winter sure, it's already running, but the rest of the year it would smother you out of the house/shelter.


Sure, solar won't make the hottest water, but it will be hot enough to bath comfortably in and clean things...and as recognized, has it's limitations as heating stops at night and has to start all over the next morning, plus you have account for ambient temperatures.

Solar electricity...great as it is, not able to build in your home and also limited during winter/overcast days.

So, yes, a combo system. Solar Water Heater for use during the day (late spring through early fall) and a wood stove water heater for night and the winter.

No one said they weren't, but you are still dependent on the "grid" (or would you rather the word "system" be used instead?) and others providing you resources.

I guess you could say that I've stockpiled propane.  I have a 500 and a 1000 gallon tank on the farm.  I have several 20 lb tanks and two 100 lb tanks at my house here in Omaha.  I know that the farm house can run the heat at a comfortable level, without the assistance of any wood heat, on less than the 500 gallon tank holds.

I wouldn't even use the word "inefficient" to describe felling trees and processing wood with an axe.  I grew up in a home heated primarily by wood.  We had chainsaws and a huge buzz saw that was mounted to and driven by a tractor.  Even with those "modern conveniences" it took me and a couple full-grown men to process enough wood to heat the house through the winter.  I was swinging a Monster Maul by the time I was just a little taller than the maul itself.  I have decades of experience with the amount of work involved in heating water and the inside of a home with wood.  You'll need a big, strong family to do it with an axe.  As GreyGeek pointed out, very few native Nebraska trees are ideal for wood heat.

Solar works exceptionally well at producing direct current (with can be transformed into alternating current).  The time of year has nothing to do with it - especially if you have a panel array that can be tilted and turned to follow the sun.  An overcast day or two shouldn't be a problem if you've built a decent batter bank to store the power.  There is a considerable up-front investment necessary and, of course, batteries will eventually deteriorate and die leaving you with only direct DC current (no storage).

Our ancestors heated water and their homes primarily with coal, wood, buffalo chips and other combustible materials.  Returning to those days is beyond the understanding of most folks because they have no frame of reference.  For better or worse, like Grey Geek, I have that frame of reference. 

[ProtoPatriot]

I guess you could say that I've stockpiled propane.  I have a 500 and a 1000 gallon tank on the farm.  I have several 20 lb tanks and two 100 lb tanks at my house here in Omaha.  I know that the farm house can run the heat at a comfortable level, without the assistance of any wood heat, on less than the 500 gallon tank holds.

I wouldn't even use the word "inefficient" to describe felling trees and processing wood with an axe.  I grew up in a home heated primarily by wood.  We had chainsaws and a huge buzz saw that was mounted to and driven by a tractor.  Even with those "modern conveniences" it took me and a couple full-grown men to process enough wood to heat the house through the winter.  I was swinging a Monster Maul by the time I was just a little taller than the maul itself.  I have decades of experience with the amount of work involved in heating water and the inside of a home with wood.  You'll need a big, strong family to do it with an axe.  As GreyGeek pointed out, very few native Nebraska trees are ideal for wood heat.

Solar works exceptionally well at producing direct current (with can be transformed into alternating current).  The time of year has nothing to do with it - especially if you have a panel array that can be tilted and turned to follow the sun.  An overcast day or two shouldn't be a problem if you've built a decent batter bank to store the power.  There is a considerable up-front investment necessary and, of course, batteries will eventually deteriorate and die leaving you with only direct DC current (no storage).

Our ancestors heated water and their homes primarily with coal, wood, buffalo chips and other combustible materials.  Returning to those days is beyond the understanding of most folks because they have no frame of reference.  For better or worse, like Grey Geek, I have that frame of reference. 

Off the Grid = No outside connection of any kind (no water lines, no power lines, no gas lines, nothing), no relying on others to provide things necessary for survival, only having to leave your property because you want to and not because you have to, etc...living only on the resources you/your family gathers, no one else.

Ok, so you run all those tanks to heat, cook, and such with. So, that's gets you how far? Then what? Sure since you already have it, it gets you a head start and you can start working on harvesting wood or other methods. But what about others that don't have such things already setup to go and SHTF hits tomorrow?

With solar, time of year does have something to do with it.... having 18 hours of sun vs 10 hours is pretty big deal (unless of course you are in TX, AZ, NM, NV, southern UT, etc... then you have all the sun you ever could want), regardless of the battery bank you have. Also, as I said with solar, you can't make those panels yourself out of materials already in your home or most homes. So, it doesn't quite work. Having only DC to work with is not a big deal, better than nothing.

My point was that propane is not "off the grid" as people may want to believe nor is it a very long term, viable option. You are still dependent on the "grid"/"system", unless you have your own propane refinery and such in your house. As GreyGeek pointed out, propane will become extremely expensive should anything happen, so good luck refilling let alone transporting it.

I know plenty of people that go harvest their own wood solo or in pairs (father-son, brothers, etc.) and they gather enough for the year and winter just fine; all while still going to work, tending a garden, etc. It can be done. Would it be completely easy? No, not at all but doable.

The point of the whole post was to provide ways for people to become self-reliant in terms of hot water (or as it has gone broader, no big deal there). Propane is not as you have to depend on others to acquire it and process it, where as harvesting trees yourself is self-reliant.

Sure most people can't comprehend doing things as they were back in those days, but they can learn from others or learn from trial and error as people did in the first place... or they will perish.

There is so much wrong with what that guy  was trying to do it is hard to know where to being....

First, one pound of dry manure will supply between 2 and 8 cubic feet of Methane, depending on its quality.   About 10%  of manure is "ash", and of the remaining "volatiles" only about half is digested to Methane.    The slug buildup in the digester shown  in the video would shut it down within a few months.   There is no way to tear it apart for cleaning.   The guy learned quickly that there is a ratio of Carbon and Nitrogen that must be maintained for proper digestion.  It is the same ratio that goes into making good compost piles.   A compost pile would be good for a Methane digester except that it doesn't have sufficient Methane producing bacteria and it needs to be ground into almost dust and mixed with water.  That's why cow, pig and chicken manure is the best material to use.  Here is a table I found which gives the approximate Methane producing capabilities.  A "unit" is 1,000 lbs of animal. From the table the manure most efficient in generating Methane is chicken manure.

Code: [Select]

Animal units MBTU/yr MBTU/yr/unit
Fattened Cattle 9.6 89.9 9.3
Milk Cows 12.3 92.1 7.5
Swine 8.5 124 14.6
Poultry 6.1 125 20.5

The gas produced in a Methane generator usually contains 60-70% methane, 30-40% carbon dioxide, and 1-2% hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic.   A  leak of biogas into living quarters  could silently kill the occupants because H2S anesthetizes the nose at lethal concentrations, so one wouldn't want a pilot light burning.

H2S burns to form Sulfur Dioxide gas, which reacts with moisture in the air to form Sulfuric Acid, the principal component of acid rain.  It is very corrosive to metals and lungs.  To scrub the H2S from the biogas in a SHTF scenario the easiest way to make a scrubber would be to bubble the biogas through a solution of white ash made  from burned wood, which  contains Lye.  That would also remove the CO2 from the gas.  Boiling a solution of white wood ash and animal fat produces "Ivory" soap.   White ash  is the white powdery remains of a wood fire that doesn't contain unburned Carbon, i.e., charcoal.   A Warm Morning wood burning stove creates good piles of white ash, more like a gray talcum powder.

My family and I lived out in the country, 5 miles from the nearest village of 500, where I taught science and math.   When the Arab oil embargo hit in 1972 Propane became so expensive that I switched to a coal burning stove, which was almost a disaster.  Too hard to control the temp.   Switching to wood and using a 21" chain saw my son and I would cut dead wood every Wednesday and Saturday, filling the trunk of a Ford Fairlane 500 junker that I drove specifically for that purpose.  The house we lived in was the oldest in Merrick County, built in 1887, mainly out of Cotton Wood.   It was not insulated.  Four Mesquite logs about 5-6" in diameter and 18" long would keep the two story house warm all night in the middle of January.  About 250 of those logs make a cord.    In my experience burning wood from October to March I burned about 2 to 2 1/2 cord of  Mesquite.   Ash was good (3 - 3 1/2 cord),  Chinese Elm acceptable (took 4 - 4 1/2 cord).   Chinese Elm was the most common wood, besides Cottonwood.   Ceder was poor because it had too much hydrocarbon volatiles and burned up too quickly, leaving a lot of soot in the stove pipe.   Cottonwood was terrible, and it is impossible to split.   Using just 6" diameter branches it would take, I'd guess, 10 - 15 cord to heat the house.   You'll use Ceder and Cottonwood only once.    Mesquite is very hard, and after cutting though an 18" diameter log three or four times I'd have to get out the sharpener and sharpen the chain.

I had an advantage because a LOT of farms had tree lots behind their houses, or nearby, which were planted when farmers heated and cooked with wood and had to keep a nearby supply handy.  After propane arrived the wood lots were neglected and were full of a lot of dead, dry wood.  Just perfect for me.   I was often asked to come by and "clean out" an old wood lot.   However, after about five years a LOT of folks were beginning to burn wood and those wood lots were seen as another income source.  That was about the time I quit teaching and started my computer consulting business.

That was just something I found on a brief search, I never meant it to sound like it was a sound method or not. From first looks, it seems like a decent premise, that is all. I was wondering about the leftover waste and cleaning the system as well.

[Mudinyeri]

I think your definition of "off the grid" is different from the definition in common use, Proto.  I know a number of people who live off the grid but they still go to the store to buy groceries and clothing.  They still purchase gasoline for their vehicles and implements.  In a SHTF scenario, resources will still be available.  The means of acquiring them may change, however.

If you think you can heat your water and home this way and aren't willing to listen to those with experience telling you how difficult it would be, why did you even ask the question in the first place?

[ProtoPatriot]

I think your definition of "off the grid" is different from the definition in common use, Proto.  I know a number of people who live off the grid but they still go to the store to buy groceries and clothing.  They still purchase gasoline for their vehicles and implements.  In a SHTF scenario, resources will still be available.  The means of acquiring them may, however.

If you think you can heat your water and home this way and aren't willing to listen to those with experience telling you how difficult it would
 be, why did you even ask the question in the first place?

Have you actually read every word? Because a single word changes an entire sentence.

Then they are not truly off the grid now are they...now do they have a head start? Yes, they do. Can they finish going off grid if need be? sure, they are already partly there. But are they off grid now? No, they are not.

Did I say it would be easy at any time? No, I didn't,... and I didn't ask any question of the sort that you seem think was asked. I already know how difficult it can be from my own experience. So, don't sit there lecture me. And if you think resources and such will be available during a true SHTF event to just wonder down to a store for purchase, you have another thing coming (sorry to tear down your fantasy).

But don't get all pissy because propane isn't what you and many others thought. Using propane is not off the grid, it is merely replacing a pipe with a delivery service or pick-up (which is actually worse since you are now using 2 kinds of fuels instead of 1 and the road grid, thus making you more dependent on the grid/system then you were before).

The problem here is that when people hear "off the grid"; they think just the power lines, water pipes, gas pipes, phone lines, etc...those grids (or in other terms: direct connect) and forget about the indirect (same issue is in many areas, people never want to look at the indirect). Having a cell phone is not being off the grid. Having internet is not off the grid. Having satellite is not off the grid. Being dependent on the grid/system in any manner, whether directly or indirectly, you are not truly "off the grid"...you may be partially off, but not completely.

And how many times do I have to say it: something you can build yourself out of materials already in home (no purchases, truly off the grid\system) with relative ease of construction and maintain it under your own skills/abilities, not purchasing things.... I did not say it would be easy to maintain....things that are truly worth while are never easy.  The question was whether anyone had other ideas that would meet the same criteria as that system above would.

[GreyGeek]

Any truly "off the grid" move would be equivalent to traveling back in time to pre-1887 days, before the use of electricity and gasoline, or any significant mass transit.    IF, after a national  disaster of any kind, if the power doesn't come back on line and the food and fuel deliveries do not resume with 3 months there will be mass starvations.   Between the onset of the disaster and deaths of untold millions of people would be civil chaos that even the federal government could not restrain or contain.  Just view some of the videos of the fighting in Damascus, Syria on Youtube.   (Damascus is the oldest continually inhabited city in the world.  Some think we are witnessing its final destruction as prophesied in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17&version=NIV ).   One can plainly see that even those who supported the FSA rebels capturing their towns left the towns as refugees because the infrastructure was destroyed and there was no way  to get food, water, electricity or fuel.

That means that were the "stuff" to actually hit the fan 99% of the people would not be prepared, even the heavily armed ones with 1, 2 or even 5 years of food and supplies stashed away.    Where would they seek refuge if it is  the same everywhere?   The most important long term survival (decades) resources they'd lack would be good dry land farm ground, seeds, farm implements and the animals to power them.  PLUS, the skill to use the equipment and feed and care for the animals.   VERY FEW people have that knowledge or necessary equipment or supplies.   Even if they did, they'd still face the problem of surviving until the threat posed by wandering throngs of armed people eventually died off.   Having firearms and a  sufficient supply of ammo is only a fraction of the materials and skill necessary to have for long term survival.  Especially if you are parents with children too small to contribute or even help defend.   Right now, how  many have the space or can even afford to keep seeds,  farming implements, tackle, horses or oxen around in case the SHTF?  Very, very few.   More than likely, any  who have thought about it will come to t he conclusion  that the only way to get that stuff is to steal it from those who have it after the SHTF.     Thus,  there will be a "me against them" mentality like you've never witnessed before.

More than  likely small rural farming communities, villages with 500 or less, will re-organize  into a self  sustaining "fortress", like medieval times, defending themselves against outsiders.   Solar powered motion detectors, lookout towers and walkie-talkie comm systems.  Their biggest problem will be obtaining fuel, but they'll probably modify their community sanitation system to create methane and fertilizer for their crops.   The village i lived near for 10 years, Clarks, Nebraska, is like that.   Two hundred hard working adults, and their children,  with a widely varying skill set, a machine shop, emergency power generator, and several thousand gallons of Propane that could be rationed out for generating electricity and gas powered machinery for farming a section of surround land for food.   Being in the Platte valley the water table  is less than 10 feet down.   The  surrounding country side could be "raided" for building materials from abandon homesteads, barns and out buildings, plus metal resources from discarded farming implements, etc.   Old windmills that pumped water could be restored to working condition and  moved to town for people  and animals and watering farm land.

Those hoping to forage for food will be disappointed.   During the first 90 days, after the grocery shelves have been emptied out, people will start shooting, trapping or seining everything that moves (but will  never touch worms, a major source of clean protein, or insects) on the ground, flies through the air or swims in the water.   Will wildlife enough survive to replenish?    Probably, in some areas, but it will take years for previous numbers to be restored, and for wildlife to migrate into areas that were cleaned out.   As I write, 90% of the fish stocks along most coastlines around the world are exhausted.   That's why farming will be so important.   

But, I'm 72.    For me, it wouldn't matter if SHTF or not, my days on this world are numbered.  I'm passed the "three score and ten" and am now taking the test of "by reason of strength" to see how many years I have left.   It's my children and grandchildren I fear for.   And, to be blunt, their hope is the same as the one I hold on to.   I've read the Book..  The guy on the White Horse wins.