Hot water options for Off grid/SHTF

[ProtoPatriot]

Any truly "off the grid" move would be equivalent to traveling back in time to pre-1887 days, before the use of electricity and gasoline, or any significant mass transit.    IF, after a national  disaster of any kind, if the power doesn't come back on line and the food and fuel deliveries do not resume with 3 months there will be mass starvations.   Between the onset of the disaster and deaths of untold millions of people would be civil chaos that even the federal government could not restrain or contain.  Just view some of the videos of the fighting in Damascus, Syria on Youtube.   (Damascus is the oldest continually inhabited city in the world.  Some think we are witnessing its final destruction as prophesied in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17&version=NIV ).   One can plainly see that even those who supported the FSA rebels capturing their towns left the towns as refugees because the infrastructure was destroyed and there was no way  to get food, water, electricity or fuel.

That means that were the "stuff" to actually hit the fan 99% of the people would not be prepared, even the heavily armed ones with 1, 2 or even 5 years of food and supplies stashed away.    Where would they seek refuge if it is  the same everywhere?   The most important long term survival (decades) resources they'd lack would be good dry land farm ground, seeds, farm implements and the animals to power them.  PLUS, the skill to use the equipment and feed and care for the animals.   VERY FEW people have that knowledge or necessary equipment or supplies.   Even if they did, they'd still face the problem of surviving until the threat posed by wandering throngs of armed people eventually died off.   Having firearms and a  sufficient supply of ammo is only a fraction of the materials and skill necessary to have for long term survival.  Especially if you are parents with children too small to contribute or even help defend.   Right now, how  many have the space or can even afford to keep seeds,  farming implements, tackle, horses or oxen around in case the SHTF?  Very, very few.   More than likely, any  who have thought about it will come to t he conclusion  that the only way to get that stuff is to steal it from those who have it after the SHTF.     Thus,  there will be a "me against them" mentality like you've never witnessed before.

More than  likely small rural farming communities, villages with 500 or less, will re-organize  into a self  sustaining "fortress", like medieval times, defending themselves against outsiders.   Solar powered motion detectors, lookout towers and walkie-talkie comm systems.  Their biggest problem will be obtaining fuel, but they'll probably modify their community sanitation system to create methane and fertilizer for their crops.   The village i lived near for 10 years, Clarks, Nebraska, is like that.   Two hundred hard working adults, and their children,  with a widely varying skill set, a machine shop, emergency power generator, and several thousand gallons of Propane that could be rationed out for generating electricity and gas powered machinery for farming a section of surround land for food.   Being in the Platte valley the water table  is less than 10 feet down.   The  surrounding country side could be "raided" for building materials from abandon homesteads, barns and out buildings, plus metal resources from discarded farming implements, etc.   Old windmills that pumped water could be restored to working condition and  moved to town for people  and animals and watering farm land.

Those hoping to forage for food will be disappointed.   During the first 90 days, after the grocery shelves have been emptied out, people will start shooting, trapping or seining everything that moves (but will  never touch worms, a major source of clean protein, or insects) on the ground, flies through the air or swims in the water.   Will wildlife enough survive to replenish?    Probably, in some areas, but it will take years for previous numbers to be restored, and for wildlife to migrate into areas that were cleaned out.   As I write, 90% of the fish stocks along most coastlines around the world are exhausted.   That's why farming will be so important.   

But, I'm 72.    For me, it wouldn't matter if SHTF or not, my days on this world are numbered.  I'm passed the "three score and ten" and am now taking the test of "by reason of strength" to see how many years I have left.   It's my children and grandchildren I fear for.   And, to be blunt, their hope is the same as the one I hold on to.   I've read the Book..  The guy on the White Horse wins.

Which is exactly why I am talking about a truly "off the grid" and that propane does not meet that. Yes, very few have the skills to do most things....which is why I glad to have such skills as I was raised traditionally, worked on farms, and such...it gave the skills I will need to survive completely self-sufficient.

The problem with those small rural communities is that is the first place the flood of all those in the cities will strike. Yes, people will need to band together a bit in order to stand a fighting chance for the long term. What I am looking at is to be able to survive until those "fortress" communities can form up, which could take quite some time to do and even then some will be over run in the early stages.

Foragers will be doomed from the get go, that is for sure. However, can someone take materials others have left behind and make things out of them? Yes, for instance: take a good metal car hood and form a farming plow with it.

As you point out, most of the so called "preppers" out there will not survive as they fail to take into account such things as the gangs/pillagers to the level in which they will be. It won't be until after many have died of either starvation or pillaging that the strong holds will be properly formed and stand a complete chance.

Severing dependence on any such systems is a major necessity to avoid what is happening in other places. By being completely self-sufficient, you won't be one of those refugees... but again one must band with others to be able to fight back attackers effectively...but that does not mean one has to give up complete self-reliance.

[Mudinyeri]

Again, "off the grid" - in the sense of common usage - means disconnected from the electrical grid and other utilities.  Of course, the phrase can also carry with it the connotation of being disconnected from modern communication as well.

Using that as my definition (and that of thousands of others) being off the grid does not mean that one has to sacrifice all the modern conveniences.  At our farm, we could disconnect from the grid and live quite comfortably for 2-3 years without having to sacrifice anything except Internet access (if you want to include that in being off the grid).  We could run lights and electrical conveniences off of our solar array.  We could heat and cook with propane (supplementing with wood if desired).  We probably wouldn't run the air conditioning off of the solar array - too heavy a draw.  We'd probably also dry clothes on the line rather than in the electric dryer.  Not much would change - SHTF or not.

If we didn't want to purchase more propane, or if propane wasn't available, we could heat the house with wood and heat water for washing (dishes, clothing & people) on the wood-fired cook stove.  Eventually, we might run out of gas for chainsaws and buzz saws, but we have a two-man felling saw and a two-man crosscut saw (MUCH faster than an axe), saw sharpening vises and files and plenty of practice using and maintaining them.  I could always go back to swinging a Monster Maul to split wood if I had to.

In the final analysis, I with Grey Geek.  I know where the members of my household and I will end up for eternity so I'm not overly concerned with dying ... but I'd sure rather it be quick and painless than slow and painful.

Edit: We still have a pretty fair compliment of antique farm machinery in working condition as well as the horses to pull it.  We have heirloom seeds.  We have a fertile dry land farm with a nearby pond.  Maintaining the equipment could be a challenge.  We'd have to find a blacksmith to trade with.  We'd also need to find a stallion to breed our mares and produce foals because the mares would eventually die.  We'd have to start harvesting a few eggs each week to hatch rather than eating them all or giving them all away.

A few things would change, but I think you're right, Proto.  VERY few people are prepared to live like I did growing up.  Most don't have the knowledge and skills.  Many simply don't have the "gumption".

[ProtoPatriot]

Mudinyeri...just because you want to use a partial definition and claim so many others use it (WHICH I HAVE ALREADY RECOGNIZED AND EXPLAINED, which shows that you didn't actually read everything I wrote...or just didn't understand it... or just disregarded it). You can try and play word games and use fragmented definitions all you want...they won't work with me, I use complete definitions which are in "common usage" as you like to claim.

Off the grid is simply that, leaving the infrastructure behind... including all of its conveniences and comforts... all of it. No utilities (water, sewage, gas, electricity, etc.), disconnected from the infrastructures that makes life convenient (including roads, banks, schools, doctors, stores, etc.), no internet, no phone, none of it. Yes, one must give up all the unnecessary conveniences/comforts that have created such an unhealthy dependency on each other and organizations to be truly/completely off-grid.

Can someone be partially off-grid (i.e. solar/wind/water electricity, septic/outhouse, etc. but still have internet, phone, have a gas line or get propane)? Of course. But propane is not an off-grid option as I have explained a few times already.

To use propane at all requires one use the road grid. Then it requires one to utilize the consumer grid (stores, which get their propane from the gas company, thus you are back to using the gas grid). Then you must use the financial grid (even if you pay cash). Then you must utilize the road grid to get it back to your property. (if delivered, only the names change, same process.) So, do tell how propane is off-the-grid? Again, all propane does is change you from using one kind of grid to using another... you are still dependent. And on top of that, in order to use said road grid, you are being forced to use the government grid... thus increasing your dependency further.

The moment you can procure (meaning gather, pressurize, bottle, etc.) propane yourself from your own resources on your property ... then you can claim it to be off-grid.

As I already recognized, you and many others may be PARTIALLY (or at least heading in that direction) off the grid and have a head start in some areas and ways that buy you a bit of time....but you are not off the grid, not truly or completely.

Basically, if another person must continually provide it for you (i.e. someone must gather, refine, bottle, pressurize, ship, etc. the propane), you are on a grid of some kind if not multiple grids. Again, you as so many others are failing to see are ALL the grids that are really involved... again, there is direct and indirect, but grids all the same.

Can you utilize the grids in order to move towards going off-grid? Of course (buy what you want... if you can... personally, I don't have the financial resources)...how you get there is of no real importance... maintaining the off-grid status after the switch is what makes it truly off-grid. But this post was for those that either have no money or it's too late to purchase...something simple that can use the resources already in their homes and can be maintained by THEIR OWN abilities/skills/efforts.

Do you have to go off-grid completely and immediately? No, not until one absolutely must. But until that time, they are not truly and completely off-grid. You can be partially off-grid for time being.

You are only partially off-grid, but propane is not off-grid.

VERY few people are prepared to live like I did growing up.  Most don't have the knowledge and skills.  Many simply don't have the "gumption".

And those people are not yours nor my problem, if we want to help we can...but we don't have to...and they can perish, it's their problem. But those that are looking for a way and have a desire to learn or "gumption" but are just overwhelmed or not sure where to begin, just need a little nudge.

Basically, it's like those living in the areas hit by Katrina or Sandy, or other natural occurrences (I don't call them disasters, they are normal things to happen, not somethings so strange and out of the norm)...I have no pity for them, they had warnings days/weeks in advance (especially in this day and age). They know they live in a such zones. If they fail to prepare themselves and have suitable supplies/means, that's their problem and they can deal with it. It was their CHOICE to not prepare and ignore warnings, they can deal with the consequences.

I have told many people not to waste money on buying name brand shoes/cloths, candy bars, sodas, and such; buy a pair of cheap stuff (they tend to last about just as long, popular fashion is simply not important) and then put the rest of the money towards buying supplies like a few cases of bottled water.

[Mudinyeri]

I'm reading what you wrote.  I'm understanding it.  I'm not disregarding it.  I'm debating it.

Here's what comes up in a Google search for "off the grid": Not dependent on public utilities, esp. the supply of electricity.
"people living off the grid had begun using wind turbines"

Sound familiar?

So, if I pull a propane trailer with a horse, off road and I barter for the propane rather than pay money for it ... I'm "off the grid" (in your mind)?

I think, perhaps, the term you're looking for is "self-sufficient".

[ProtoPatriot]

I'm reading what you wrote.  I'm understanding it.  I'm not disregarding it.  I'm debating it.

Here's what comes up in a Google search for "off the grid": Not dependent on public utilities, esp. the supply of electricity.
"people living off the grid had begun using wind turbines"

Sound familiar?

So, if I pull a propane trailer with a horse, off road and I barter for the propane rather than pay money for it ... I'm "off the grid" (in your mind)?

I think, perhaps, the term you're looking for is "self-sufficient".

Then what are you not understanding?

I have searched but as seen and recognize: people fail to see all the grids that are actually involved. As I already explained and recognized, most people only say its the disconnect from the direct connection to the utility companies...but there is more to it than that, they are disregarding the indirect grids.

Even one of the primary, off-grid sites recognizes what I am talking about.
http://www.off-grid.net/2012/02/11/what-is-living-off-grid/

Again, most only think about the direct connect and the utility companies. I am talking about something much deeper.

Being self-sufficient and self-reliant are necessities of going off-grid, without self-sufficiency/reliance it is impossible to go off-grid.

Again, that is only a single grid and a single kind of grid... you are only using a portion of the complete meaning, not its entirety. There are more grids than those provided by the utility companies.

There is simply a larger meaning. To have a grid does not require a physical connection.

Using propane you are still dependent on a utility company, just in a different way....as explained already.

But you have yet to explain how propane is off-grid (using the full meaning, not just a portion of it) when you are merely placing a store and road between you and the gas company or different gas company, rather than a gas company pumping it right to you. Switching companies or where you get it is not going off-grid, it's how you get it.

And as stated, propane is not viable option as when SHTF hits either, it won't be available and any supplies that can be found will either be exuberantly high cost or you will be lucky to survive getting it back to your property.

So, if I pull a propane trailer with a horse, off road and I barter for the propane rather than pay money for it ... I'm "off the grid" (in your mind)?

No, you can do that to gain the components to be able to set something up to procure the propane yourself. Basically, any re-occurring costs (if you have to give something to another to get something else) will connect you to a grid of some kind (all it takes is 2 points to create a grid, that is after all how all grids start). If you have to return to get more gas over and over, they become your utility company.

Again, it's not the use of propane that makes it not off-grid; it's the re-occurring costs, the continuation (in other terms, dependency) of connection to others that creates the "grid" (and if you haven't figured out, "grid" is not always in the literal sense).

Using propane is the same as bartering/buying batteries over and over again to power your house instead of having a cable from the "traditional" electric company (it only takes 1 person to be a company and if another individual is providing your fuel/electricity/water/etc. they are a utility company) provide it. It's also the same as buying/bartering for your food instead of having it delivered to you.

No, you must be the provider/producer of the expendables to be off-grid.

I think you are just caught up in the whole "traditional" or "common use" aspect...well the use of propane is quite "traditional"/"common use" now days.

Also, "traditional" or "common use" as in getting it from someone else instead of procuring it yourself.

[Mudinyeri]

I think you are just caught up in the whole "traditional" or "common use" aspect...well the use of propane is quite "traditional"/"common use" now days.

You're probably right.  I'm "caught up" in the meaning that millions of people recognize rather than an expanded meaning perhaps recognized by hundreds or thousands. 

Definitions are important.

Just as important is realizing that, in all likelihood, you'll eventually need to rely on others in a true SHTF scenario. 

[ProtoPatriot]

Just because the masses recognize something or do something, doesn't make it correct or right... not everything is up to a vote or popular belief, in fact very few things are (i.e. rights are not open for voting and are not based on popular belief, they exist and there is nothing anyone can do about it).

Just as important is realizing that, in all likelihood, you'll eventually need to rely on others in a true SHTF scenario.

There is no doubt there. That is how everything started, no one wanted to leave others well enough alone. Also, that is recognized in the Declaration of Independence.

But you can limit how much you rely on each other by limiting the connections you have...hence the full off-grid meaning. You can band together for mutual security (on your own, not hiring someone to do it for you, your [and your immediate family's] safety is your concern and yours alone and no one has any business/right putting someone else in harms way for their sake) without being dependent on each other for security or anything else at all. Maintaining that independence, that freedom, that self-reliance/sufficiency is paramount.... if you want to be free.

Basically, we must maintain our distance from each other and sever all of our dependencies from each other in order to be able to breath the fresh air that is freedom. There is a reason why the cities have such problems...too many people too close together too dependent, not enough space and independence.

[Mudinyeri]

Just because the masses recognize something or do something, doesn't make it correct or right... not everything is up to a vote or popular belief, in fact very few things are (i.e. rights are not open for voting and are not based on popular belief, they exist and there is nothing anyone can do about it).

No, but if you start calling the color red "blue" you're going to have a hard time getting along in this world.

[ProtoPatriot]

calling the color red "blue"

For some people that is 100% true... (not important, just being a smartass)

As for getting along, did I say anything that went against the definition? No, I just used actual complete definition most people don't even know of. Just because I reveal and utilize information others simply don't have, does not mean I'm wrong or anything. It just means I am more informed.

Also, really going to try and play that game? Edison, Tesla, Jefferson, Madison, Adams, Socrates, Plato, etc. all went against popular belief and popular thought because they knew they were right and they knew the current beliefs in the world were wrong... Just as the current POPULAR beliefs today are completely wrong.

What is right, moral, and just is rarely if ever the popular thing to do...but it is what must be done and should always be done...regardless of any law, popular belief, or popular demand. Popularity means nothing.

There are more important things in life than "getting along".

I found an interesting quote the other day...(though at the moment I can't remember the person's name)...

it goes something like this:
"If you find yourself agreeing with the majority, you better think twice to see if they are in the wrong."