What I have experienced at shooting matches

[OnTheFly]

Let me preface this rant with a few statements...

• I DO appreciate all the participation from the area shooters in local matches
• As far as RO's go I am relatively inexperienced
• My intent here is not to embarrass or discourage anyone from shooting these matches
• I am ONLY asking people to take the RO's suggestions to heart and improve their level of safety
• I made the same errors, maybe even worse, two to three years ago when I started shooting the local matches

I was putting in my time to help RO at a local match.  There were a few shooters who had minor safety infractions.  A few were "younger" shooters who I had not met before, and they were receptive to my input.  Those were positive experiences that I hope were taken the right way.

The negative experiences were only negative because I KNOW several of these shooters have frequented the same match I was RO'ing.  They have had multiple comments from RO's cautioning their bad habits or lack of attention to their actions.

One of the gentlemen that sticks out in my head was at the last match I RO'd several months ago.  I was recording the scores while a very accomplished shooter who I have great respect for was running the timer.  After the aforementioned individual shot, we were down range scoring when one (or both) of us got fouled up on the count.  I advised the other RO that something was amiss.  He stepped over to me and quietly said “I DON’T want to run this guy again because he scares the CRAP out of me”.  Point taken and his score was finalized.  Was it fair?  Probably not.  Was it prudent? I think so considering that sometimes the best way to keep things safe is to reduce exposure with the hopes that the RO’s suggestions will be taken to heart.

Fast forward to the recent match I RO’d.  The same gentleman was at this match.  I knew how he had performed previously, so I kept my eyes glued on what he was doing with the gun.  I would say that there was some improvement until after the course of fire when it came time to secure the firearm.  He unloaded the firearm, but as he was reaching forward to get his gun bag, he swept his forearm with the muzzle...TWICE.  Once he had the gun bagged, I pointed out what he did.  In what I perceived as a slightly annoyed tone, he asked “You mean after the gun was unloaded?”.  Which I took to imply that this was an acceptable act considering that the gun was unloaded.  I replied with “Treat every gun as if it is loaded...right?!”.  He mumbled an acknowledgement, but it was not the positive, “I made an error and will do better next time” enlightenment that I was hoping for.  This has apparently been the unwavering pattern for the shooter.

Do I have a point?  This is NOT an attempt to embarrass any shooter(s).  It is a plea to anyone who shoots (competively or otherwise) to put serious thought into practicing safe gun handling.  Especially when you receive suggestions from an RO. This is not to say that an RO is always right.  However, I would suggest that MOST RO’s are in that unpaid position because they are devoted to running a successful and fun, but more importantly, SAFE match.  The RO’s job is not to just run the timer and score the hits.  Their primary job is to ensure the safety of the shooter and others around.  The best way to do this is for the RO to actively watch the shooter's hands.

As I said in my initial statements, I have made the same, maybe even worse errors.  Occasionally I still do, but what I don’t do is disregard my errors.  I accept critique from others.  Even if I didn't receive critique from others, I know that I need to be honest with myself about my performance if I want to get better.  Often my self-critique is more critical than any I receive from others.

So how about you?  Do you...

     ...treat every gun as if it is loaded regardless of what you “know”?

     ...keep your finger completely outside the trigger guard when loading, unloading, moving or when the firearm is not pointed at the intended target?

     ...ever sweep yourself with the muzzle?

     ...know the rules of the match before you show up?

     ...accept critique from others?

     ...self critique?

     ...strive for perfection?

You NEVER know it all, you can NEVER have sustained perfect technique, but you CAN and SHOULD strive for those goals.

Fly

[gsd]

Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?

I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?

[dcjulie]

In the example given, this shooter should have been DQ'd.  The safety rules of USPSA are very clear in this.  Even though the gun was cleared, he should still have been DQ'd due to sweeping himself.  I am one of the ROs who will usually give a "warning" to a newer shooter for an infraction such as mentioned, but I only give one warning.  The next time its done is a DQ.  I, however, DO NOT give warnings for situations that are likely to cause harm -- 180 breaks, ADs that go outside/over the berms, etc.

We RO's do volunteer our time, some of us A LOT of time, to be sure that our sport is allowed to continue in a safe manner.  My thoughts on a DQ is this "if you get DQ'd, treat it as a learning experience, and don't do it again!"  Is it fun to get DQ'd?  NO!  However, pitching a fit, arguing about it, or just plain being mean about it makes you less of a sportsman, and, frankly, less of a human being in my book.

Having said all of that -- we NEED MORE RO'S!  Anyone who is shooting the matches with the ENPS at ENGC and are not ROs really should take the class.  We are planning another one this spring, so if you are interested, please let me know and I'll put you on the "tentative" list.  Once we get the date set from the NROI, I'll let you know and get your registration.  You can messenge me on here, or send me an email letting me know you are interested in the RO class at:  enpsinfo@gmail.com

[NENick]

Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?

I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?

Have you ever driven home, but couldn't remember what you did to get there? When your mind kicks into auto pilot, it follows the things you have or haven't practiced. If you don't follow the safety rules every time, what will you do when you're distracted?

Public shame goes a long way towards correcting bad behavior. If people know you're the unsafe guy that everyone needs to worry about, you'll be very uncomfortable. Whether that goes towards correction your actions or sending you on your way, we'll be safer.

I'm not a RO, but that guy needed to be DQ'ed, so that he could be publicly embarrassed.

[jonm]

I watched a buddy get dq'd for that exact thing. no matter how silly it is, it's still a rule

[OnTheFly]

In the example given, this shooter should have been DQ'd.  The safety rules of USPSA are very clear in this.

This wasn't USPSA.  If it was, that would have been an easy call.  This is a match with a great foundation, but not nearly the established rules of USPSA.

Fly

[abbafandr]

In my limited experience at ENGC I have found the RO folks to be generally helpful.  I was DQ'd once and it was well deserved, but I learned from it.  I have received some helpful hints from some and encouragement from most.  I am one shooter that appreciates the time and effort put in by all.

[JTH]

Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?

I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?

Because it should have been a DQ under the rules.  At any USPSA, Steel Challenge, or Multigun match, if you sweep yourself it is a DQ.  We aren't going to check to see if the gun is loaded first, nor do we care.   If you can't control the gun well enough to make sure that it doesn't point at your body, we aren't going to wait until you load it and point it at your body to say "Ok, time to stop!"

Similar to reloading with the finger on the trigger.  If you do this but don't pull the trigger, the gun won't go off.  However, we are going to DQ you anyway---because if you keep your finger on the trigger while reloading, you WILL pop one off sometime.  And we aren't going to wait until that happens to tell you that you aren't being safe.  (Nor are we going to wait until you put one over the berm into someone's field.)

If you do something unsafe, we are going to stop you before "unsafe" becomes "medical emergency."

Additionally:

How many times have you heard about someone getting shot by accident when the guy holding the gun later said "I thought it was unloaded!"

It is amazing how many people get shot by unloaded guns each year.  Matter of fact, just Google "accidental shooting" and see how many people are shot each year by people who are just SURE the gun is empty.

If you don't ingrain safety habits such that you use them ALL of the time, you WILL end up in error.  In USPSA, Multigun, and Steel Challenge matches, you don't sweep yourself.  Period.

If you never sweep yourself, then you'll never shoot yourself.  Especially with an "unloaded" gun.

I've seen a LOT of people who think that the safety rules change as long as you have an "unloaded gun".  I find that most of those people are NOT safe when the gun is loaded, either.  (Because they've been sloppy in their practice, and they have NOT ingrained safety as an automatic, normal matter of course.)  These are the people that make you cringe every time you see them at the range.

If people think this is too much Safety Nazi stuff, that's fine---go ahead and do what you want, safety-wise.  You won't be able to shoot any competitions, though.  And I won't want to ever shoot with you, either.  If a person decides that safety is something that they can be lax about, then at some point in time, they are going to shoot someone.

If they shoot themselves, that's pretty much a logical consequence.  But I don't want to be around them and have them shoot ME.

Quite frankly, I don't think this is a silly rule at all.  Again---if you don't have sufficient muzzle control to not point the gun at yourself, why should we wait until you actually shoot yourself to point out your safety issue?

[JTH]

Here's a good place to link this:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8672

(Different case, but similar topic.)

[OnTheFly]

I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?

gsd,

Your attitude is the EXACT thing I am trying to change with my post.  At a USPSA match, I watched a normally safe shooter, after given the "If you are finished, unload and show clear..." command, quickly rack the slide without dropping the magazine, pull the trigger, and bounce a round off of the floor.  That disqualified him as it would in the other style match I was RO'ing in my example.

The point being, no person (RO, competitor, or shooter) is perfect.  If you practice safe gun handling ALL OF THE TIME, this becomes second nature.  Errors will be made, but they will be considerably less.  How many negligent discharges have you experienced or read about where the person activating the trigger stated "...but the gun was unloaded!"?

So are you telling me that you would actually point the muzzle of a gun at something you wouldn’t want to shoot (your dog, family member, or your own body part) because it is empty?

Fly

[OnTheFly]

Because it should have been a DQ under the rules.

See my post (Reply #5) above.

Fly

[OnTheFly]

I watched a buddy get dq'd for that exact thing. no matter how silly it is, it's still a rule

Ok...maybe I'm just a fanatic, or it is my OCD surfacing, but HOW IN THE WORLD is this "silly"?  The first rule of gun safety, "ALWAYS treat a gun as if it is loaded". 

Maybe this is the most upsetting thing about what I have experienced.  People show up at the match and learn the "silly" rules of the sport, but don't carry those over to their day-to-day gun handling.  WHY?!  These rules aren't ridiculous idiosyncrasies, they are common sense.

Fly

[OnTheFly]

I'm not a RO, but that guy needed to be DQ'ed, so that he could be publicly embarrassed.

I would agree that there are a few things in life that "teach" us what to do and what not to do.  Embarrassment and pain can make a lasting impression.  However, a match DQ is done first and foremost to keep the sport safe, and so that the shooter never gets to the more extreme teachings of pain.  The second purpose of the DQ is to teach.  Getting DQ'd means no more shooting, no ranking for the match, no scores posted, and no money back.  This will make you want to avoid a DQ in the future.

The embarrassment part of the DQ is not (and IMHO should NOT) be any part of the intent.  However, if you are at all a conscientious person, the embarrassment will be all internal.  THIS is the sign of a person who is truly concerned about safety and who seeks improvement. 

If you shrug off your unsafe act as "no big deal", then you need to find another sport AND you need to seriously reconsider your gun handling.

Fly

[wallace11bravo]

This is where I very much want someone to yell at me if I muck up.

I *used to* (ahem, still surfaces from time to time) have a "bad habit" of securing and clearing the top of my holster with my support hand before holstering. Obviously, dependent on the exact setup of the holster, this can mean sweeping one's own support hand while holstering.

Now, this was ingrained and motivated from back in the day when I was "forced" to use crappy holsters, with crappy mounting systems, and crappy (snap-backstrap) retention devices, often in brush and weeds. I developed this as muscle memory because, quite frankly, it was the lesser of two evils. The risk of shooting myself in my support hand was negligible compared to the risk of shooting myself in the leg while reholstering if I didn't physically move to clear my holster of the backstrap, weeds, brush, or whatever may get into my trigger guard while reholstering. And if I didn't physically secure my holster, it would flop about, and function as another unstable element in this math equation of danger.

Now you might say "why didn't you just look to check the holster?" Quite frankly, no. Without the ingrained habit of actually moving to clear it, "looking" just wasn't going to cut it. "Looking" is quite different from "observing and making a decision based on what is observed" and if I am going to define a habit, I will define one for the worst case scenario. (And for the record, I saw at least one person shoot themselves in the leg, partially due to one of these crappy holsters... luckily with simunitions, but still enough to get him kicked out of the course we were in)

For the most part, this bad habit is gone, but every once in a while I'll use a different holster (such as a bladetech) for some reason (practicing for an upcoming steel challenge), and this now bad habit resurfaces. I say *now* bad because I do still believe it was a "good" habit, at one time, but those days are gone.

Luckily, someone else spotted it, and corrected me on it. I then told him to continue to correct me on it. I also was very slow and deliberate about my reholstering for the rest of the day, hoping to not ingrain a now bad habit on this setup anymore than it already is. I am glad he spotted it so I could correct it, and had I been unwilling to correct it, he would have been more than justified to be more aggressive about his correction.

The moral of the story is: "See something? Say something." Regardless of the setting, this is not just a match RO's job, but our job as responsible firearms owners.

Also, if I seem to be very slow and deliberate on reholstering at the SC match, now you know why

[OnTheFly]

Also, if I seem to be very slow and deliberate on reholstering at the SC match, now you know why

Speed re-holstering.  Now THAT is a whole other barrel of monkeys.  Oy vey!

Fly

[gsd]

No. I would never point a firearm at anything I did not intend to destroy.

And your intimation that I would is offensive.

[abbafandr]

Also, if I seem to be very slow and deliberate on reholstering at the SC match, now you know why

The good thing is your reholstering and magazine changes aren't on the clock.   Just shoot the steel real fast 

[JTH]

No. I would never point a firearm at anything I did not intend to destroy.

And your intimation that I would is offensive.

Not sure who that is directed to, since a number of people have posted in this thread.  If it was me, though....

....my use of the word "you" was generic, and not particularly pointed at anyone.  I do note, however, that since you were the person who said:

Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?

I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?"

...my simple reply is:  Because he swept himself.  And again, as I said, we aren't going to wait until someone shoots himself before we stop him for unsafe handgun handling.   

Considering you said the above, the assumption that you don't think it was a big deal seems pretty straightforward, whereupon the assumption that you WOULD (under those circumstances) point a firearm at something you weren't willing to destroy seems also pretty straightforward.

Or did you mean "why did you do that, even though I understand it was a safety issue?"  Because that certainly isn't the way it came across.

It came across as a "why did you do that, the GUN was UNLOADED, so it wasn't a big deal"  ---- which is precisely what this thread is about.  If you meant something else, please clarify.

[gsd]

It was not meant for you jth. I asked for clarification in my original post and received it from Julie. If I asked in a manner that came across differently oh well.

I take offense to Flys post.

[OnTheFly]

No. I would never point a firearm at anything I did not intend to destroy.

And your intimation that I would is offensive.

gsd...I'm sorry that you take offense to my question, but you need to help me understand why someone shouldn't be corrected for breaking THE foundation of gun safety.  Are the rules...

• Treat every firearm as if it is loaded, unless you are sure it isn't.
• Don't point a firearm at anything you don't intend to destroy, unless it isn't loaded.
• Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, unless the gun isn't loaded.

So help me understand your question...

I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?

As an RO, why wouldn't I correct the shooter on their unsafe acts?  Or are you saying their actions were safe?

Fly