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Author Topic: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...  (Read 3295 times)

Offline shooter

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 10:50:57 AM »
 along the lines of a weapon mounted light for home defense. when I built my house, I put a switch in my bedroom, that turns on a light in the kitchen, this lets you back light who ever might be in the house,
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Offline NENick

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2014, 11:17:43 AM »
Thomas, when are you going to setup a low light no light course?

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2014, 05:38:58 PM »
Thomas, when are you going to setup a low light no light course?

I simulate low light conditions in his classes by keeping my eyes closed. 
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2014, 07:29:09 PM »
I simulate low light conditions in his classes by keeping my eyes closed. 

That.....actually explains several things.

 :P
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2014, 07:43:00 PM »
That.....actually explains several things.

 :P


Yes it does! :)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2014, 12:06:55 PM »
So what do people think about lasers for SD guns?  Not light/laser combos, but just lasers?  Thoughts?  Do you use one?  Hate 'em?

Me personally......I'm solidly on the fence on this one.  Or rather, in my opinion there are only a couple of situations in which I think they would be helpful at all, and in those situations, I don't necessarily see them being incredibly useful---but they might be helpful.

To my way of thinking, the only guns I'd ever put a laser on would be small pocket pistols, for situations in which I am shooting at serious close range one-handed.  (I have a couple of j-frames, and a .32 Tomcat.  I never carry them.  But if I did, or ever thought I would, I would probably put a laser on them.)

Cases where you have to shoot one-handed, at close range, with a tiny pistol with poor ergonomics, snappy recoil, and a average-to-bad trigger---in those cases, having a visual POI reference would probably be helpful.  If the attacker is that close, I'll be really pressed to keep my eyes on them, instead of on sights.  And while many lasers tend to be hard to see in daylight at any distance, up close it would still be useful. 

That's the same kind of reason I'm fine with using sights like the XS Big Dot on small pocket pistols---you need something you can pick up quickly and immediately under stress.  And you aren't planning on taking 20 yard ocular window shots with them.  (Maybe YOU are, but I wouldn't.)  I wouldn't put a Big Dot on anything bigger, though, because it IS harder to be precise with them compared to other types of sights (ex:  Warren Tacticals, Heinies, or Dawsons).

So why not lasers on full-size carry guns for similar close-range reasons?  Well, holster fit is an issue for some of that.  But for me, at least, the main reason is that full-size pistols are ergonomic enough, and I have enough practice with them, that my accuracy from retention 2 (in other words, with having the gun nowhere near my sight line) is pretty good out to 5-7 yards, even under some stress.     And a laser IS just something else that can go bad, or be annoying to deal with. 

With a tiny pocket pistol I don't practice with that much, comparatively speaking, with a poor trigger?  Might be worth it. 

Maybe. 

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Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2014, 12:22:08 PM »
Real handy if you are the shield man on an entry team.

Lasers are very handy in certain situations, and with proper initial, and sustained ongoing training. The problem is, just like with the guns themselves, the VAST MAJORITY of folks buy em, install em, and never ever ever practice or train with them. Like many other things in the gun world, people think that equipment=proficiency. Equipment, be it high quality glass, a tricked out AR, or a laser on your carry gun, is just a tool, and a tool cannot be proficient. Only the user can, and because lasers are not a be-all/end-all, you would have to maintain proficiency on two different sight systems, effectively doubling the amount of training time to be required.

I have literally heard this sentence: "I have a laser on my gun so I don't need to practice as much." More than once.

Other thoughts on lasers:
-Useless in well lit areas
-Detriment in the dark (POO bullet magnet)

All just off the top of my head, I'll probably come back and add some stuff later when I've given it some thought.


Offline jFader

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2014, 12:32:35 PM »
along the lines of a weapon mounted light for home defense. when I built my house, I put a switch in my bedroom, that turns on a light in the kitchen, this lets you back light who ever might be in the house,
Great idea...I added hardwired emergency lighting in my hallway, my stairway, basement room where we'd go for a tornado, & I plan on adding one above my gun safe....when I sell my house buyers are gonna wonder what I was thinking! I think that They look nice & blend in well...
My main reason was because I'm an electrician & I was bored one Saturday....& I wanted them for the fam in case of power outage....I could imagine a professional home invader taking the extra step to remove an electrical meter outside, it would take all of 30 seconds & leave a homeowner in the dark to defend his home...

I bought a laser for my carry gun, so far I like it but I've only had it a few weeks.... It adds almost no weight or size with the one I got, a crimson trace grip that slides onto my xd subcompact....& its still fits great in my supertuck & feels good in my hand...oh, I can turn it off easily as well so I don't see any disadvantages to it so far.
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Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2014, 12:53:12 PM »
For lights, I am limiting the discussion to practical carry options: (to avoid writing a book)

Here is something to consider:

In a typical urban environment, indoor or outdoor, that you find yourself in, and you would be most likely to have an encounter in, when/where is it so dark that you cannot see well enough with natural vision to ID a threat? For me, I honestly can't think of anywhere that I have ever been within Lincoln city limits that would fit that discussion, although I'm sure if you look hard enough, there are places.

(Now, if you're like me, and you carry in very rural areas, and you are also thinking about coons with distemper, mountain lions, etc, then the discussion changes, but for now, lets limit the discussion to human threats and urban areas)

The big myth in white light is blinding/distracting an attacker. While you can blind or distract a person that you caught off guard, briefly, an actual attacker, a real threat, is not likely to be delayed much, if at all. And consider this: If someone is flooding you with white light, how hard is it to shoot or charge THE ONLY THING YOU CAN SEE? I have a mountain of evidence that it is not difficult at all, even in high stress, including a surefire that is permanently stained from probably close to 40 direct hits from UTMs and Simunitions from several different training events.

White light is only used to ID a threat (including purposes of engaging). That is its only practical proven use against an actual threat.

This same point is one of the reasons to not use a weapon mounted light. A handheld can be dropped, held out away from you, etc to lessen the chances of you receiving a lethal dose of lead. You can also use the light to see, without pointing your weapon at everything and everybody.

The advantage of a weapon mounted light is quick accessibility, and the ability to maintain a two hand grip on the weapon. Now... what distance to CC encounters tend to happen? Is the latter really that valuable? And with the point at the beginning of the post, is the former really that valuable?

These are questions that only you can answer. I have no idea on the specifics of your situation/environment. Just meaning to give folks some things to think about in their equipment selection.

Get trained and keep practicing, on whatever light system you choose. Make spotting/painting and displacing an ingrained habit, that you do automatically.



Now, in the off chance I am carrying my LC9 (without a light), and I do find myself in needing white light to ID a threat, I do have a backup: My phone. A reasonably bright LED flashlight is built into most modern smartphones. I have practiced a few times with this, and while it takes me a couple seconds to get the phone out and the light on, it is a valid backup option, should I need to ID a threat in near total darkness. It is by no means ideal, especially with the backlighting on me from the screen, but better than nothing should I need to illuminate a situation.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 02:47:14 PM by wallace11bravo »

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2014, 03:42:29 PM »
I carry a light 'cause I don't think it will hurt anything.  Yeah, it will draw their attention to you, no one WANTS to turn on a light in a bad situation, but no one WANTS to biff an innocent either.   

I hold no illusions that my 300 some odd lumen flamethrower will paralyze anyone's trigger finger.  I just want to better my odds of ID'ing the threat in less than optimal lighting conditions.  Even in dim light, it makes picking up the sights much faster. 

I guess what I'm saying, that given the choice, I'd rather get hit than hit an innocent bystander. 

Lasers.  Again, I see no harm as long as they're not used as a crutch.  The ability to use the sights is paramount.  Looking for that dot takes too much time.  Index needs to be developed.  There's no substitute for that. 

Where the laser shines, at least from I read, is shooting at moving targets in low light.  And shooting from awkward positions.  There may be a deterrent factor too, but I wouldn't/don't rely on that.  If it works, great!  If not, again, I'm not out anything. 

So again, aside from the expense, I don't really see a downside to lasers as long as the shooter understands that they are no substitute for good body index* (which translates to the rapid acquisition of the sights) which is only acquired through hard work. 

*And magnificent trigger control!!!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 04:00:01 PM by Lorimor »
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2014, 03:56:55 PM »
Great idea...I added hardwired emergency lighting in my hallway, my stairway, basement room where we'd go for a tornado, & I plan on adding one above my gun safe....when I sell my house buyers are gonna wonder what I was thinking! I think that They look nice & blend in well...
My main reason was because I'm an electrician & I was bored one Saturday....& I wanted them for the fam in case of power outage....I could imagine a professional home invader taking the extra step to remove an electrical meter outside, it would take all of 30 seconds & leave a homeowner in the dark to defend his home...

I bought a laser for my carry gun, so far I like it but I've only had it a few weeks.... It adds almost no weight or size with the one I got, a crimson trace grip that slides onto my xd subcompact....& its still fits great in my supertuck & feels good in my hand...oh, I can turn it off easily as well so I don't see any disadvantages to it so far.

I wired Claymores up to a switch in my house.  :)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2014, 04:12:40 PM »

White light is only used to ID a threat (including purposes of engaging). That is its only practical proven use against an actual threat.



A good light also makes a terrific people whapper should it come to that.  :)  I can drive nails with my old Surefire M2 Centurion. 


« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 04:20:18 PM by Lorimor »
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline AWick

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Re: Weapon-mounted lights, hand-helds, and self-defense use...
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2014, 10:05:24 PM »
The big myth in white light is blinding/distracting an attacker. While you can blind or distract a person that you caught off guard, briefly, an actual attacker, a real threat, is not likely to be delayed much, if at all. And consider this: If someone is flooding you with white light, how hard is it to shoot or charge THE ONLY THING YOU CAN SEE? I have a mountain of evidence that it is not difficult at all, even in high stress, including a surefire that is permanently stained from probably close to 40 direct hits from UTMs and Simunitions from several different training events.


Any elaborations on this? I tested out a bright 500 lumen LED going from dark to flashlight and I really couldn't look at it. Granted I wasn't in the mindset of a person breaking into a house or hopped up on God knows what, but my eyes physically hurt after that...

Thanks for your analytical approach too.
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