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Author Topic: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....  (Read 1811 times)

Offline JTH

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How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« on: April 11, 2014, 02:15:02 PM »
...that their safety discipline sucks?

Lomshek wrote this over at pistol-forum.com:

"The funny thing is when I've tried to correct "experienced" (read done it for years not done it right for years) shooters on proper hard trigger finger index I get ignored or told the finger was off the trigger (1/4" forward of the trigger face). The only shooters I've had luck convincing are novices who know they don't know anything.

Experienced shooters with bad habits are the most dangerous creatures out there because they know everything and it's worked fine all this time. Those are also the types most likely to decide AIWB is for them because they're "expert" shooters."


http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11928-Analyzing-the-Front-Sight-ND-reports&p=214425&viewfull=1#post214425

He later says:
"There are tons of folks who have been shooting for years or decades and violated every safety rule in the book but because they haven't shot themselves or someone else yet (by the grace of God) there will be no convincing (and even after they shoot themselves if the chief of police video is any indicator). Some folks just are determined to prove they are infallible by ignoring all the warnings."

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11928-Analyzing-the-Front-Sight-ND-reports&p=214458&viewfull=1#post214458


I find that I completely agree.  I see this in competitions (USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, GSSF), in classes (both classes I've taught and classes I've attended) and on the range (where the guy in the next bay over is "teaching" someone how to shoot, when their own safety discipline is an dangerously incompetent or non-existent.

This is like the people who tout their experience in surviving armed encounters---just because you survived doesn't mean you did it right.  It is entirely possible that either 1) you just got lucky, 2) the other people with you saved your butt, or 3) your opponent/attacker was a complete and utter idiot.

"…they know everything and it's worked fine all this time…" --- having not shot yourself due to luck isn't the same as having adequate safety discipline.

So---how DO you help an "experienced shooter" who isn't safe, to become safe in their gun handling?  In competitions it is easy---they break the safety rule, they get DQed.  This doesn't make them safe, but it does mean that won't shoot anyone/themselves that day.   But then you see someone on the range showing someone else how to shoot, and what they are teaching is straight-out dangerous, from a safety discipline standpoint.

What do you do?  How do you approach them to make a difference? Remember, this is an "experienced shooter."
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Offline on the fritz

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 04:20:06 PM »
If you were good enough, you could get a pic with your phone or camera and show them that they were not as safe as they thought they were. 

Otherwise, constantly saying "finger off the trigger" would be annoying to both parties but they might at least leave; leaving you safe(er). 

Good question, but I don't think there is a good answer (unfortunately). 

Offline NENick

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 05:08:55 PM »
Politely interrupt, and let the trainee know that you've been observing the most dangerous training you've ever seen. State why, and then let them know that it's so dangerous that you're leaving the area in fear for your safety.

Offline bullit

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 05:16:25 PM »
I confront them in a respectful manner and could care less if it seems offensive.  That being said I try not to throw stones at glass houses....case in point I shot an idpa match last weekend and came very close to breaking the 180 rule.....I ...me...experienced shooter, instructor, idpa safety officer.   The original poster was kind enough to inform of my almost dq moment.  I took it  humbly and beat myself up mentally all the way home...in short they (me) will either appreciate the correction (me again) or they will be a jerk and you will not want to hang around them in the future. The best teachers are always the best students first.

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 05:48:51 PM »
Quote
I took it  humbly and beat myself up mentally all the way home...
   

Been right there and done that.   And Likewise Felt Stupid All the Way Home.

These kinda folks are not the Problem Folks.

It's the Other Kind of Folks.   The Know-It-All Shooters.

Sometimes they are Instructors: "Ah bin teechin' this here class for twenny-fahve yeers and Ah've seen it all.   Especially awl the dumb thangs You are gonna do on the range taday............"   

[Might as well mention Husband/Wife combos at CHP Range Qualification......   Trying to get the wife through the process and Hubby keeps jumping in.]

OK--back to Know-It-All "Experienced" Shooters.

sfg 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 05:51:00 PM by SemperFiGuy »
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Offline gsd

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 05:51:49 PM »
One instructor I know seems to think a smack in the back of the head works. That being said, my opinions do NOT coincide with that belief. I usually try to politely say something to  them without sounding condescending.

I myself find my finger slipping into the guard from time to time, and after a few choice words tom myself, I correct the issue and move on.

it would be preferred that all shooters take constructive criticism with the acceptance that bullit mentioned, but we all know that will never happen.

Doesn't mean we cant try though.
It is highly likely the above post may offend you. I'm fine with that.

Offline Ronvandyn

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 06:34:49 PM »
There are very few “concrete” firearms safety rules.  Being an instructor does not make one a “guru” of safety, it means that one has the qualifications to teach safety.  Beyond those few you get into the realm of opinion. 

Yet those few “concrete” safety rules are broken all the time, we see it nearly every time we go to the range.  As a guy just out having a good day shooting it’s not my place to talk to the offending party, it’s my place to move to a safer location.  Depending on where it happens it might also be my place to advise an R.O., after I have moved to the next range.  In life I have found that attempting to tell someone that they are wrong is an exercise in futility.  And the more “experienced” the individual is the harder the brick wall is that you are pounding your forehead into.  Maybe this is where the “Old dogs, new tricks” saying came into being. 

I don’t hang around unsafe shooters, I go elsewhere.  Even if it means that I have to go all the way home.  But this is just my personal preference, other people have different ideas.
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Offline JTH

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 09:40:31 PM »
Here's the thing, though:  Most of the people who read my original post shook their head and thought about the other people they have seen at the range acting in an unsafe manner.

But---how many said to themselves:  "I wonder if I'm that guy sometimes?"  (Apparently some!  Good!)

Because none of these "experienced shooters" you've seen think that THEY are the problem, either.

If you were out shooting, teaching someone else how to shoot, and someone came up to you and said, "I'm sorry to interrupt, but please, even if the gun is unloaded and empty, PLEASE don't turn around and walk uprange (towards the open end of the bay) with it in your hand as you go back to your range bag" ----how would you react? 

Would you argue?  Or say "I didn't do that"?  Or say "It was unloaded"?  (Because they aren't going to say it unless they saw it, and it doesn't matter if the gun was unloaded, we don't point guns uprange.) 

(I bring up this specific example because I see this one all the time at the range, and even saw it during the IDPA classifier a couple of weeks ago when a local instructor was working with someone on a different bay while wearing no eye protection, and his student trotted back to his gun bag for more ammo/mags while holding a firearm.  Well, the instructor was waving his gun uprange as he pontificated also, so it wasn't as if the student was screwing up on his own.  But I'm sure it was unloaded.)

Or if someone said to you "Your finger was in the trigger guard when you loaded/reloaded/cleared your gun."  Would you say "It wasn't on the trigger"?

Because when I say "experienced shooter" I mean you.  (And I mean me, too.)  And if your reaction to that comment is a little indignation (because YOU have good safety practice, after all) ---why is that?  After all, in my original post I said "[you] know everything and it's worked fine all this time" ---isn't that how we all think?

Having a shooting partner periodically check your gun-handling safety is a good thing.  Even the most conscientious shooter can find themselves not noticing a gradual slide into "finger on the trigger" mode (or another safety error), without either harsh continual self-discipline or an outside eye paying attention.  We need to continually check ourselves on safety.  (And remember that humans aren't good at watching themselves when acting under stress.)

So if someone comes up and says "hey, there is a safety issue" we all need to hold back that knee-jerk reaction of "I did NOT!  I'm an experienced shooter!"  ---because they aren't going to come up and say it if they didn't see it.

While I really would like to have someone tell me a good way to go up to someone and tell them to fix their safety habits with firearms, especially when they are "teaching" someone else---all of us ALSO need to check our own

Because, after all, we ARE experienced shooters. 

...as a comment to the people who are saying "just move away" --- should we just let them continue to be unsafe?  Teach someone else to be unsafe?  Leave, so that the next person coming out to shoot still has to deal with them, who might not notice how unsafe they are being?

I'm not saying confrontation is the answer here.  But....I don't know if just walking away is the answer, either.  In a business like an indoor range (like Big Shots, Thunder Alley, or the Bullet Hole), you can say something to the guy, or just walk out and talk to the store RO, and they will hopefully handle it.

But at someplace like ENGC, or Ikes---it isn't like you can always find an RO to speak to.  I'm all for not being shot, but I don't want people to shoot themselves, either.  I'm thinking that I'm going to have to try to say something.  I'd just like to find a way to do it so that whoever I'm talking to won't automatically get all indignant that someone would even THINK that they weren't being safe.
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Offline AWick

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Re: How do you tell an &quot;experienced&quot; shooter....
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 11:33:11 PM »
Myself being an offender that once pulled a bone head move that was corrected by our very own jthhapkido, (btw, I checked that video and the range was indeed clear, but not yet announced... still not a big no no to have the pistol out then and I thank you for correcting me in a calm and understanding way) I can't really harp on others... or can I? I know that safety is something that we continually have to work on and improve and I freely admit that I have been rusty at times. Now I pose a harder question to you folks, with no intent to insult the older crowd here:

What do ya do when the man that practically beat gun safety into ya growing up starts to age and completely lose his understanding and implementation of gun safety? I was visiting over Easter and showing him a new AR build and my IWB CCW set up, because he's interested in getting his. There were muzzle issues, finger issues, and other blatant issues. He even flopped down a pistol on the couch so it bounced over a pillow and pointed right at my face! Thank God he didn't rack the slide before he did that. I just about lost my freaking mind!!! I was so mad at him and things nearly went nuclear! Of course all I got were excuses and the whole "I know what I'm doing!"... I immediately cased the guns for the entire rest of the trip, no range time was had at all...

Advice? I posted this here vs a new thread because it's in the same vein and this is still a recent thread.

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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2014, 09:57:32 AM »
I've had to do this in my own family.  I simply said, "I'm not going to shoot with you any more until you address these safety concerns."  I then outlined my concerns, packed up my gear and left.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2014, 10:11:51 AM »
I've had to do this in my own family.  I simply said, "I'm not going to shoot with you any more until you address these safety concerns."  I then outlined my concerns, packed up my gear and left.

I bet the holidays with your family are fun!  ;D

Seriously though, I have a relative that I have not shot with, but considering how they handle a firearm when we are playing "show and tell", I can see that I would be pressed to correct them at the range.  A contributing factor is that he is of a profession that can hold themselves above others which makes them less receptive to constructive criticism.  His wife, my niece, wanted to get a handgun so she asked if I would give her some instruction.  I jumped at the chance before her husband could instill her with bad habits.  I didn't say it that way, but that was my intention. So one afternoon I met with her to provide some basic dry-fire instruction on gun safety, loading/unloading, grip, stance, etc..  It went really well, but her husband was lurking/sulking in the background off and on.  It just about killed him that she came to me for the instruction.

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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2014, 01:23:47 PM »
I bet the holidays with your family are fun!  ;D

Fly

You can pretty much count on some kind of argument or fight. :D

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: How do you tell an &quot;experienced&quot; shooter....
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2014, 01:31:59 PM »

You can pretty much count on some kind of argument or fight. :D

So by my experience you have a normal family then.


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Offline CitizenClark

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Re: How do you tell an "experienced" shooter....
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2014, 01:35:43 PM »
I confront them in a respectful manner and could care less if it seems offensive.  That being said I try not to throw stones at glass houses....case in point I shot an idpa match last weekend and came very close to breaking the 180 rule.....I ...me...experienced shooter, instructor, idpa safety officer.   The original poster was kind enough to inform of my almost dq moment.  I took it  humbly and beat myself up mentally all the way home...in short they (me) will either appreciate the correction (me again) or they will be a jerk and you will not want to hang around them in the future. The best teachers are always the best students first.

100% agree with this.

A good person will recognize that you are speaking up out of concern for your own safety as well as for bystanders and for the shooter himself. If someone is rotten enough to be immune to correction, it is good to find that out so you can skedaddle before more negligence turns into a tragedy.