Switching from a full-size to a pocket gun...

[JTH]

Interesting article here, about self-defense weapon choices and how many people's skill level drops when they move from a full-size weapon to a pocket pistol.

Of course, my favorite part was when the results showed that people who participated in competitions regularly managed to shoot their pocket pistols (which they had not practiced with in the past year) pretty much just as well as their full-size pistols on the test, and were listed as "high skill" compared to the medium and low-skill folks who weren't.



"Shooters classified as “high skill” had taken more than one defensive pistol course in the last year, or were regular competitors in shooting sports. These shooters had an average skill loss of less than 3%, with all but one shooter passing the test with both guns. None of these shooters had done any practice with their pocket guns in the past year prior to attending the pocket gun class."

(The high skill guy who didn't pass the test with both guns actually missed passing by one point with his PRIMARY gun, and I bet he was pretty embarrassed about it, too, since he passed with the pocket gun.)

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/is-a-pocket-gun-enough/


The "Three Seconds or Less" drill he references is this one (or at least a variant of it):

http://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/Information/ThreeSecondsOrLess.htm

[Lorimor]

I've often thought about shooting a Steel Challenge with my j-frame.

Not! 

[bkoenig]

Interesting article.  My carry gun is a compact version of my competition gun, but it's still not a pocket gun size so this isn't directly comparable.  I have used it in competition a couple of times and I notice that my speed is almost exactly the same, but I'm a little less accurate with it.  My guess is it's because of the shorter sight radius.

I do have a pocket gun (S&W 642) that I carry when I need something REALLY small, but I really don't practice with it much.  I need to.  I should try these drills with both carry guns and see how they stack up.

[zebra]

Nice! Competition is good for you.

My carry gun (Kahr K9) has a fairly different trigger than my competition gun (Glock 34), as well as a different sight radius and "hand feel", yet the ability to hold the sights on target and pull a trigger straight back is pretty transferable.

I will say that I also have a PF9 that I avoid shooting in practice as much as possible. Ow.

[Mntnman]

I carry an M&P9 Shield. Now all of my handguns are M&Ps. It doesn't seem to make much difference which one I shoot affecting accuracy except the compact 9 seems to hit a little low. I know I need to get out and shoot more, though. I also need to get the wife more experience.

[landon410]

My carry is a pf9 and I struggle with it past 10 yards, but within that point and shoot range I'm as good with it as anything.

[GreyGeek]

My  10 shot pocket gun fits in the front pocket of my jeans and is totally invisible (doesn't print), even when I set down.  I carry 20-30 rounds in my  other front pocket.  (In case I needed some target practice ).

It is difficult, but not impossible, to pull while I am setting, especially with the seat belt on.

Standing ... 1 or  2 seconds to fire.  Setting ...  5 to 10 seconds.

In most situations I suspect that it will take more than 3 seconds for most people to realize that a situation exists where they might need to use their weapon.  However, after taking courses for my CHP I find myself constantly evaluating risks and dangers where ever and when ever I am out in public, just like my flight instructor taught me that part of planning a flight is making sure that you know at each instant of that flight where the nearest spot (within glide range) to land is.  I'm constantly scanning people who are wearing bulky clothing, especially around the waist,  for possible concealed weapons.  And yes, I profile.

[JTH]

Standing ... 1 or  2 seconds to fire.  Setting ...  5 to 10 seconds.

In most situations I suspect that it will take more than 3 seconds for most people to realize that a situation exists where they might need to use their weapon. 

Meant to reply to this awhile ago. 

I agree that for most people, given a defensive situation that isn't focused on them, it will probably take awhile to figure it out.  (Example:  person in a store, cashier two rows down being robbed at gunpoint.)  On the other hand, if someone is surprised at gun/knifepoint in a mugging, they'll probably realize it a lot faster.

That being said---that amount of time (three seconds or not) is actually a time that gets added to the draw time.  In other words, having a 1-2 second draw doesn't mean being able to draw within the notice/decision time, it means having a 4-5 second lag between the situation starting and an effective defense (assuming that a gun is the proper defense, and is going to be used effectively), because the "notice" time and the "draw" time both have to happen in that order.

That may be what you meant originally, but I wasn't sure, so I thought I'd mention it.

Secondly:  You can get a 1-second draw from a pocket?  When your hands didn't start in your pocket?  That's utterly amazing.  Seriously, I'd love to see that, because I can't get anywhere near that.  (Matter of fact, I don't know anyone who can do that.)  Thinking about it, a 2 second draw from a pocket (with hands not starting in pockets) is an exceedingly fast time, and something that not many people can do.  Matter of fact, without prepping the draw (bagging the pocket, making sure the gun is easily accessible and angled correctly, etc) I don't think I could do that consistently at all in 2 seconds. 

How do you do it?  I don't pocket carry, but I know several people who do, and when people ask me how to speed up their draw there isn't anything I know that will get them into play that fast---so I'd certainly like to learn.

[Gary]

The problem I see in most people relying on pocket carry is the tool in their pocket.  A sub compact 10mm is a vast exception to most guns that are small calibers of .25, .32 or .380.  These guns typically have a half a dozen rounds.    These guns are often times sub par as well as sub compact.  Low priced guns for your only source of protection is a licence to failure. 

I think any off duty police officer will tell you, it is not about being comfortable,  it is about being comforted.

Everytime I think about going pocket carry I get two images come to mind.  A group of gang members, or a group of LE like Ruby Ridge or Waco or the subject in my avatar.  These are all gangs we as socker moms and business folks always have to have in the back of our minds.   Do I want to face down credible threats with six rounds in a 2" barrel ?   No.

Guns are for counterbalancing tyranny as much as hold ups in family businesses.  Cant counterbalance very much tyranny on a pocket gun.

[GreyGeek]

How do you do it?  I don't pocket carry,

In every location (except while driving or riding in a car) I keep my hands in my pockets with the fingers of my right hand curled around the grip.   My thumbs are outside the pocket.   I am literally holding the gun, but it is not obvious or visible.  As the gun comes out of my pocket my right thumb pushes the safety off.  I couldn't get any faster using a hip holster from any concealed position.  I am not reaching around behind me, inside a jacket, or reaching through a flap of shirt, or trying to pull up, or out, a shirt tail so I can expose the gun and draw it.   My 9mm Beretta Nano required a concealing shirt or jacket to maintain stealth.

[wallace11bravo]

Thanks for the entertainment, Thomas.

[JTH]

In every location (except while driving or riding in a car) I keep my hands in my pockets with the fingers of my right hand curled around the grip.   My thumbs are outside the pocket.   I am literally holding the gun, but it is not obvious or visible.

Oh.  So that "1-2 second draw" assumes you are holding the gun already.  You are able to actually do this all the time?

I simply can't assume I'll be able to keep my hands on my gun all the time---often I have to carry things, hold stuff, open doors, etc.  (Like eating food, which I'm a big fan of... )  For any particular type of carry (and my lifestyle), I just can't assume that I'll already have my hands on my gun, particularly in a self-defense situation.  (Watching a movie, reading a menu, going to the restroom, unlocking my car, carrying groceries or anything I've bought from a store...)

What's the draw time when you don't have your hand on the gun already?

As the gun comes out of my pocket my right thumb pushes the safety off.  I couldn't get any faster using a hip holster from any concealed position.  I am not reaching around behind me, inside a jacket, or reaching through a flap of shirt, or trying to pull up, or out, a shirt tail so I can expose the gun and draw it.   My 9mm Beretta Nano required a concealing shirt or jacket to maintain stealth.

So---you have a pocket holster, with your hands in your pocket, but you also have a shirt or jacket over it?  Or are you talking about a different gun/carry situation?

[JTH]

The problem I see in most people relying on pocket carry is the tool in their pocket.  A sub compact 10mm is a vast exception to most guns that are small calibers of .25, .32 or .380.

Sub compact 10mm.  For pocket carry.  Yeah, okay.

These guns typically have a half a dozen rounds.    These guns are often times sub par as well as sub compact.  Low priced guns for your only source of protection is a licence to failure.

So, minimum-wage folks shouldn't buy guns?

I'm curious---do you have ANY data, research, or information on how low-priced guns have failed citizens in self-defense situations?  Do you have any information at all about how firearms are commonly used in self-defense, how many rounds are often fired, and what the effectiveness of various calibers are like, that you are using as the basis for your opinions?

I'll note that I personally don't carry pocket guns in minimal calibers with low capacity.  That's my personal choice, however, and plenty of people have managed to defend themselves with .38 snubbies, .22 Berettas, and other low-capacity small-caliber firearms.  And saying that people should carry 10mms as pocket pistols seems....unsupported by actual reality.

I think any off duty police officer will tell you, it is not about being comfortable,  it is about being comforted.

I doubt "any off duty police officer" would say that, though a former police officer DID almost originally say that since that is a misquote of Clint Smith.

Everytime I think about going pocket carry I get two images come to mind.  A group of gang members, or a group of LE like Ruby Ridge or Waco or the subject in my avatar.  These are all gangs we as socker moms and business folks always have to have in the back of our minds.   Do I want to face down credible threats with six rounds in a 2" barrel ?   No.

You.....plan on facing down a group of LE folks with your concealed carry pocket gun?  That is what you think about?

What is your lifestyle like, that this is the primary threat that you are thinking about defending against?

Guns are for counterbalancing tyranny as much as hold ups in family businesses.  Cant counterbalance very much tyranny on a pocket gun.

Right, right, because you only get one gun, and if that gun can't be used to defend against gangs, groups of LEs, and tyranny, it just ISN'T ENOUGH.

Seriously, Gary, do you and reality intersect at any point at all?

[JTH]

The problem I see in most people relying on pocket carry is the tool in their pocket.  A sub compact 10mm is a vast exception to most guns that are small calibers of .25, .32 or .380. 

Wait a second----Gary, aren't you the guy who carries with an empty chamber, AND puts a Saf-T-Blok in the gun? 

While now apparently pocket-carrying a 10mm?

For the sake of my curiosity, what holster do you suggest for a pocket 10mm?

[ILoveCats]

...
it is not about being comfortable,  it is about being comforted.
...

Meh.  Just because one guy making a living as an expert in modern times comes up with a catchy phrase doesn't mean I adopt it as gospel, or let it override the sum of my life experiences or my thoughts on risk mitigation. 

One of the biggest firearm-related epiphanies I ever had was when I got to spend a few days visiting museums in Dresden and spent an afternoon at the Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Rüstkammer.  Probably the best armory collection I've ever seen anywhere in the world. And the one thing I really walked away thinking was how far back firearms go in human history.  It's common to think of them as relatively modern inventions (and the American media certainly portrays them as such -- as some new affliction that has just occurred in the last few decades that require urgent political action to "fix".)  In reality they've been with us for many, many hundreds of years.  Yes, I understand in the earliest days they were only the possessions of the most rich and privileged, but their trickle down to common men over the centuries causally coincided with the eschewing of monarchy and adoption of democracy.   Personal firearms raised humanity up out of the muck of history, but no miraculous leaps of evolution have suddenly created 21st-century humans that don't mind being shot in the chest or head with a .38" projectile but will keel over instantly from a .45" one.

If someone wants to carry a Sig Sauer P232 because they feel it to be the most aesthetically beautiful and tactile gun ever made (which it is! ), or if it feels comfortable to carry, or if it conceals well with their wardrobe, or if there's simply some other emotional appeal that makes them want to have that gun with them, then they should do so.  That .380 (in combination with avoiding neighborhoods where groups of gang members roam, and staying out of religious cults) should go a long way in mitigating risk, just like similar firearms with similar power have done for a long, long time.

[abbafandr]

I have pocket carried.  It is not a bad way haul a PF9.  It doesn't print at all.  I haven't timed my draw with my timer so I don't know how quick it is.  An old dude with his his hand in his pocket isn't particularly threatening.

I also carry the PF9 in an ankle holster (only on long road trips since it is easy to access that way). 

I recently picked up a holster for appendix carry.  Surprisingly comfortable, agonizingly slow to draw so far.  Struggle to present it and hit the 6" circle at 7 yards in 2.5 seconds.  I've timed this so I know.  Think it is a combination of moving the shirt and the small handle being hard to grasp.  Putting in the biggest mag and will practice that way.

My Glock 17 I can draw from IWB behind right hip and put 5 shots in 6" circle in 4.2 seconds.  Timed that.

In an OWB holster I can draw and hit the 6" circle in 1.46 to 1.54 seconds regularly.

Course the better half gets testy (a tiny bit) when I carry both.  But what if the Zombies attack?

Whatever I carry is loaded and ready to fire.  NO empty chamber for me

[GreyGeek]

Oh.  So that "1-2 second draw" assumes you are holding the gun already.  You are able to actually do this all the time?

Yup.

I simply can't assume I'll be able to keep my hands on my gun all the time---often I have to carry things, hold stuff, open doors, etc.  (Like eating food, which I'm a big fan of... )  For any particular type of carry (and my lifestyle), I just can't assume that I'll already have my hands on my gun, particularly in a self-defense situation.  (Watching a movie, reading a menu, going to the restroom, unlocking my car, carrying groceries or anything I've bought from a store...)

That's what God gave us two hands, and a wife for.

What's the draw time when you don't have your hand on the gun already?

Don't know.  Never let the gun out of my hand when I'm armed.

So---you have a pocket holster, with your hands in your pocket, but you also have a shirt or jacket over it?  Or are you talking about a different gun/carry situation?

Nope.  No pocket holster.  Don't need it.  No jacket or shirt over it either.  It doesn't print, even if I left my hand out of the pocket, and with my hand in the pocket the outside of the pocket is flat.  I wear Levi jeans all the time.  The front pocket is big.  If any thing in my pocket prints it is the swiss army knife that sets in the bottom.

Equally import is the fact that one reason why I switched to a mosquito is because my wife can charge it, hold it, aim it, pull the trigger without flinching, and do those things relatively quickly.  The fact that it holds 10 rounds and I can carry an extra 50 in my other pocket without printing is a nice plus, although I don't imagine I'd ever get into an extended gun fight.

Someone mentioned a 10mm pocket pistol.   I know my wife couldn't handle that the way she does our pocket pistol, and even if she fired it once I doubt she could hang onto it.   I doubt I would want to.

[SemperFiGuy]

Pocket CHP Handgun Carrier Here:   Kahr 9mm, Glock 33/.357Sig.  Occasionally, a bitty Beretta 21-A mousegun.

I'm of the wife-in-left-hand-pocket handgun-in-right-hand persuasion.   Sorta like GreyGeek.

And I do not get into the lickety-split-second draw stuff.   [Except when fumbling around at IDPA and USPSA, when it gets downright pitiful.]

Frankly, Scarlet..........I don't give a damn about fast draw.   And might even be a bit concerned about whipping out a handgun and shooting too quickly, before fully assessing the threat.  There's a risk on that side, as well.

Also, I don't carry one in the chamber.   I carry Israeli Defense (IDF) Style.   Which means draw from the pocket and rack the slide.  Deliberately.  Not necessarily lickety-split.  But fast enough under the circumstances.

I respect all who carry their own way.  All who carry differently.  All who can draw from anywhere lickety-split and lightning-fast.  Different strokes for Different Folks.

And--oh, yes--all who think that shot placement matters with something as puny as a handgun. 

FWIW

sfg

[NE Bull]

^+1

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[wallace11bravo]

For the sake of friendly debate...

Frankly, Scarlet..........I don't give a damn about fast draw.   And might even be a bit concerned about whipping out a handgun and shooting too quickly, before fully assessing the threat.  There's a risk on that side, as well.

Do you have any statistical references or case examples of this? With 23,000 USPSA and 22,000 IDPA members, many of whom also carry concealed, where are all the stories of people whipping out their handgun and shooting too quickly?

You are also implying that you are drawing when you HAVEN'T yet accessed the situation to determine that deadly force is necessary? Talk about whipping it out too early. 

But fast enough under the circumstances.

How do you know what fast enough is? Do you have any case examples or statistical references? Some do exist, and I doubt they would say that whatever your draw time using pocket Israeli carry is, is "fast enough."

And all of the above assumes a WHOLE lotta things. That you are given enough time and/or distance to complete a pocket draw with charging the weapon without interference, when, again, the prerequisite to even beginning you draw is someone presents a real threat of doing death or great bodily harm unto you.

And--oh, yes--all who think that shot placement matters with something as puny as a handgun. 

Again, do you have any statistical references, or even case examples? And Again, some do exist. For purely shock and awe, I'll leave this as a reminder why accuracy matters with something as puny as a handgun.

I respect all who carry their own way.  All who carry differently. 

I agree. In fact, as long as they are safe, I am glad folk are exercising their second amendment rights, BUT, when someone who has a different "school of thought" on the subject is going to start making claims along the lines of some of the ones you did, I feel the need to: