Government thought control

[OnTheFly]

I was traveling home a few weeks ago and while waiting for a flight, I sought out an outlet to charge my laptop.  Sitting next to a lady, I struck up a conversation in which she stated that she was traveling to work as a fill-in TSA agent.  Because I was traveling in my pilot uniform, she obviously knew what I did for a living.

Our discourse eventually brought us around to aviation security, and I described a security requirement at an airport I frequent which could only make sense to someone working for the government.  Basically, the pilots had to be escorted for fear that they would do something wrong during their walk to/from the airplane.  I expressed that this was ridiculous because, once we were in the airplane, they would be sitting in the largest weapon that we had all come to fear in the aftermath of 9/11.

I had not even finished this thought when the lady said "Oh I know what your going to say, but don't say it".  Then proceeded to tell me how she had a pilot detained because he expressed how ridiculous it is to screen the pilots when they would be operating the very same type of weapon that the 9/11 terrorists employed.  The pilot was not saying anything like "I'm going to crash the plane...".  He was simply stating a fact.  This lady believes her job goes way beyond physical screening or pulling a person because they are making real threats.  She is apparently employed as the thought police. 

Now let me say I DO understand that the TSA job is unfortunately necessary in this new world we live in.  What I have a problem with is a person being detained for pointing out how a process is flawed, and being told to refrain from speaking, just fall in line and comply.

I must also say that pilots are not above reprieve.  Pilots can (and do) have mental issues.  Years ago a disgruntled FedEx pilot was riding jumpseat when he pulled out a hammer and attempted to bludgeon the crew so that he could hijack the plane and crash it into the FedEx headquarters.  Many people would use this as an example of why pilots should be screened.  However, when airplanes come with such things as crash axes accessible to the crew, the physical screening is not going to matter much with a person intent on doing harm.

Fly

[bullit]

Well you do wear a pretty lame vest at IDPA....

[OnTheFly]

Well you do wear a pretty lame vest at IDPA....

That's all you got?  Back to the "vest" thing?  I will remind you that I don't wear a vest at all for the IDPA matches.  Though this may soon become against the rules, which is just an attempt for some people to make their unwanted orange vests sell on local forums.   

Fly

[wallace11bravo]

"Security Theatre"

Its not about being safe or secure, its about putting on a show for the masses. A horribly inefficient show.

[bkoenig]

"Security Theatre"

Its not about being safe or secure, its about putting on a show for the masses. A horribly inefficient show.

Exactly.

[abbafandr]

"Security Theatre"

Its not about being safe or secure, its about putting on a show for the masses. A horribly inefficient show.

That's why we have so many repressive laws.  People demanding the government "do something" 

[OnTheFly]

"Security Theatre"

Its not about being safe or secure, its about putting on a show for the masses. A horribly inefficient show.

The funniest (in a twisted way) story I have about that occurred shortly after 9/11 when everyone was hypersensitive about security.  There is one airport which is the general aviation mecca in the northeast.  They have gated entry with a "guard".  For a while they would have you open the trunk of the vehicle so they could look in.  They would see giant pilot suitcases, boxes, whatever, and just waive you in.  Apparently if you had weapons and/or bombs, they would have been labeled as such.  What a futile, make-you-feel-good attempt at security.  Sheesh!

Fly

[ILoveCats]

.. proceeded to tell me how she had a pilot detained because he expressed how ridiculous it is to screen the pilots when they would be operating the very same type of weapon that the 9/11 terrorists employed.  ...

Unfortunately I'm seeing this sort of brain-dead thinking in all industries these days.   I really think humanity is getting more and more stupid as the decades go on.  It's not even a thought police or political correctness thing as much as it is a lack of creativity and imagination. 

Of course there have always been certain workers who are infamous for having no imagination -- or sense of humor.  Remember the 1980s commercial where the customs agent asks the traveler if he has anything to declare and he responds, "Diarrhea"?   Don't ever try that.   I know a guy who did once and it made his customs and admission process much longer and more involved than he'd bargained for.

[bkoenig]

Unfortunately I'm seeing this sort of brain-dead thinking in all industries these days.   I really think humanity is getting more and more stupid as the decades go on.  It's not even a thought police or political correctness thing as much as it is a lack of creativity and imagination. 

Of course there have always been certain workers who are infamous for having no imagination -- or sense of humor.  Remember the 1980s commercial where the customs agent asks the traveler if he has anything to declare and he responds, "Diarrhea"?   Don't ever try that.   I know a guy who did once and it made his customs and admission process much longer and more involved than he'd bargained for.

The movie "Idiocracy" is a prophesy.

The dumb people keep breeding while the smart people are too busy working.

[bullit]

Now let me say I DO understand that the TSA job is unfortunately necessary

Fly...  in your unadulterated opinion, do you believe they've made any difference?  I know of no MAJOR instance that TSA has stopped anything malicious from occurring .....

[OnTheFly]

Fly...  in your unadulterated opinion, do you believe they've made any difference?  I know of no MAJOR instance that TSA has stopped anything malicious from occurring .....

It is FAR from perfect.  I have seen plenty of 80 year old women have their knitting needles taken away.  The TSA function, in and of itself, is not the singular fix to security.  It is one tool in the tool bag.  I have used the swiss cheese analogy before, but like many systems, it has holes like swiss cheese.  You put up several layers of swiss cheese and hope that none of the holes match up.  I am also unaware of the TSA stopping any attempt of terrorism.  But then maybe that's the point.  Those with terrorist intent have decided that the TSA screening, combined with other security measures, are enough of a deterrent that they will pick other means of attacking the US.  As they say, no news is good news.

I don't personally think the terrorists are focusing on our aviation system for their next strike.  They had previously exploited a hole in our security, but we have made that prospect much more difficult.

Fly

[GreyGeek]

Fly...  in your unadulterated opinion, do you believe they've made any difference?  I know of no MAJOR instance that TSA has stopped anything malicious from occurring .....

Exactly!  IF there had been even ONE verifiable instance of the TSA stopping a bomb-toting terrorist from getting on a plane we would never hear the end of it in the PC media.   In fact, the TSA regularly and unknowingly lets people fly with dangerous weapons or even pretend bombs, but has at least on one occasion tried to stop and frisk a man AFTER he had arrived at his destination and was exiting the airport.   He told them to take a hike.  They called the police but they didn't come till 30 minutes after he had left.


But, the TSA isn't stopping there.  They have sent ViPR teams out to do warrantless stop and searches at bus stops, train stations, and various highways around the country, while guarded by swat teams equipped with MRAV's, helicopters and snipers.

[OnTheFly]

Exactly!  IF there had been even ONE verifiable instance of the TSA stopping a bomb-toting terrorist from getting on a plane we would never hear the end of it in the PC media.   In fact, the TSA regularly and unknowingly lets people fly with dangerous weapons or even pretend bombs, but has at least on one occasion tried to stop and frisk a man AFTER he had arrived at his destination and was exiting the airport.   He told them to take a hike.  They called the police but they didn't come till 30 minutes after he had left.


But, the TSA isn't stopping there.  They have sent ViPR teams out to do warrantless stop and searches at bus stops, train stations, and various highways around the country, while guarded by swat teams equipped with MRAV's, helicopters and snipers.

I guess I can't wrap my brain around that logic.  The TSA was set up as a deterrent.  It still has holes, but because they have not had any great save, this proves that their efforts are futile?  I guess I could apply the same logic and say that since we have not had anymore hijackings where planes have been flown into buildings, then the TSA security efforts are a complete success.

As I say, not a perfect system.  As with many government agencies, they employee people who don't have the capacity to reason or more likely are not given the latitude to apply common sense.  I DO think that there should be improvements.  They need to be called out anytime they overstep reasonable bounds in the name of security. 

I am very familiar with VIPR.  They randomly come to the general aviation side of the airport and demonstrate what they don't know.  One of our crewmembers was taking a nap in the plane while they waited for passengers.  He heard the door open slightly and then close.  He figured it was just the other crewmember starting to enter the jet, but then deciding differently.  Shortly afterwards he received a call from the company stating that the TSA wanted to fine the company $XXK for leaving the plane unblocked.  The dumhead nog-nogs just walked around the ramp checking to see if doors were unlocked, found one, and then left without asking the front desk where the crew was.

So, YES, there needs to be improvements.  We need to call BS when they overstep their bounds, such as in my example.  However, what is your alternative?  No screening? Screening by a different, but just as messed up agency?  Outsourcing to the private sector?  Whatever changes we make, there will still be screening.  Would you feel safe getting on a plane with no screening at all?

Fly

[Gary]

The employee at sams club that looks over your cart as they read the items on your receipt does what exactly?   Nothing.  But it makes you think they are providing some vital security process to curb unpaid for items leaving the store.   For fun, I have handed them the incorrect register tape and they still check it over, circle some stuff and hand it back. 

It is 99% illusion.

[Gary]

I put a tattoo on a TSA big wig a few years ago.  His job was to go from site to site and just report back to Washington how things were going. 

He was a lifetime postal employee. When TSA formed they put out ads in government pay slip envelopes for help wanted for new agency.  He applied.  They wanted LE expirence for the big promotion job he applied for.  He was a 34 year mail sorter. 

You know how he got the job?  At his interview, he told his potential boss,  he could take off all the time he wanted and he would make it his job to make him look good and watch his back.  He was hired instantly.    This guy asked me if I wanted a job.   I asked doing what?   He said, nothing, just like me.    He was being paid to get a tattoo.   I said no thanks. 

[GreyGeek]

However, what is your alternative?

That's easy.   Use the methods of the most successful airport security team in the world, the Israelis.


Since 9/11 we have spent approximately 30 billion dollars on the TSA and there have been well over 25,000 failures.  It is blind luck that an American airliner hasn't been blown out of the sky.  Because Obama is not enforcing our border security I have little doubt that Muslims will or have snuck Stingers into the country and will  probably shoot down an aircraft flying out of Reagan airport sooner or later.

The TSA is .   The only reason why the shoe bomber didn't blow the plane out of the air is because of his stupidity, not because security stopped him.  The same for the underware bomber and the printer cartridge fiasco, and God only knows how many squeakers the TSA aren't talking about.   

The Israelis require that their security  people have college education and are throughly trained in security.  They are professionals.  Not homeless people or HS drop outs given a  job, a badge, training on how to grope and permission to abuse the civil rights of citizens, if not stealing them blind.    Instead of groping or other violations of ones dignity,  every person wanting to fly in Israel is interviewed while on the way to the airport or waiting in the line by professionals trained to spot terrorists.    We hire just anyone off the street and give them training in groping, and enforce politically correct restrictions on NOT frisking people who fit radical behaviors because that would be "profiling".  God forbid we save the lives of hundreds to protect the civil liberties of someone who buys a ticket at the last minute, pays cash, has no luggage, all their body hair is shaved, etc...

Scanning and searching pilots is the height of TSA stupidity.  A pilot could walk on board an aircraft buck naked, after taking an enema and undergoing a full body CT scan and that wouldn't stop him from flying the aircraft into the ground or ocean.  The pilot brought the MH170 airliner down.

Now, what are the odds that if some TSA agent sees your pseudonym and identifies you they would ban you from piloting or flying because you are a member of this forum.  I'd wager the odds would be pretty high.

[OnTheFly]

I would agree that the Israelis are much more practiced in the skills of terroristic threat detection. We could and should take some pages from their playbook. Our system has flaws, and one of them is the standards of employment. While the Israeli system may be more effective, it still has flaws. They may be less restricted by political correctness, but be careful what you wish for.  While Islamic extremists are what you and I want to stop, the political leanings of the POTUS is what will influence who is being held in suspect. The government is already suspicious of "radicals" such as white males who are religious and have a firm belief in the fundamentals of the Constitution.

Fly

[GreyGeek]

the political leanings a of the POTUS is what will influence who is being held in suspect. The government is already suspicious of "radicals" such as white males who are religious and have a firm belief in the fundamentals of the Constitution.

Agreed, and THAT is exactly what is at the core of the problem with the TSA and its infamous ViPR teams.

[abbafandr]

That's easy.   Use the methods of the most successful airport security team in the world, the Israelis.

Minor problem here.  California alone has more airports than Israel.  Can we afford to do that level of security for every airport?  Every international airport?  Do we want to?

[Mntnman]

Whatever they do, the Patriot Act needs to go bye bye. It isn't even a law, Constitutionally speaking. Why do we let them use it as one? Someone says you are a threat and you can disappear without your rights protected by the Constitution? I don't thinks so! Either it protects us all, or it protects nobody.