IDPA BUG Match questions...

[JTH]

Aldo recently mentioned that the December IDPA match is going to be a BUG match....

So I'm curious---I've read the rules, and I've read the Enos forum, and I'm still not sure about one important thing:

Do we have to have a holster for the BUG?  Or are all starts from a table/low ready position?

There isn't anything in the rules about not having a holster, merely rules about what guns are legal in the BUG division.  But on Enos, several people were talking about how you don't need holsters for BUG matches, and it occurred to me that many people use pocket holsters, ankle holsters, or other deep concealment types of things for their BUG (which aren't legal for IDPA), so they might not HAVE a regular holster for them. 

Ex: I own a j-frame revolver.  (Weird, I know. And I'm horribly bad with it outside of 3 feet.) I don't own a single holster for it other than a Nemesis pocket holster.  (It is a great setup to drop into a parka pocket if you need to run outside for a moment.)

Friend of mine only has an ankle holster for his j-frame.  If he tries to shoot a BUG match, he is going to give up at least a full second versus anyone with a belt holster that works for their BUG.

So----do these people need to get themselves belt holsters (that conform to IDPA rules) for the BUG match?

I'm not actually asking for myself---my normal subcompact BUG is a G26, which will fit in any other belt holster I've got.  (Yay for Glocks!) 

...on the other hand, I did ask Aldo awhile back if we could shoot 2 guns for the match, and challenged folks to shoot their normal BUG, and a j-frame (which obviously I would do also) just for fun.

So if I need to get a j-frame holster, I need to know soon!

Concealment garments needed?

Mag pouches?

How many mags are we going to need per stage?  (Lots of bug guns only come with one mag, or at most two, and most people don't buy extras.  And for those shooting G26s, no, you can't use G19 or G17 mags in it--not legal in IDPA.)

I looked at the FAQs and such from the BUG Nats that just occurred, so I thought I'd ask.

http://www.matchreg.com/bug/info.htm

Their version (how it worked at BUG Nats):  You can have holsters (which must be IDPA legal) but they aren't necessary as no stage included drawing from the holster.  All reloads were off the clock.  No concealment garments were necessary as there were no draws and reloads were off the clock.

How is IDPA Nebraska going to run this? 

(And can we shoot two guns?    )

[mott555]

Slightly off-topic, but is there a calendar or schedule somewhere? I looked at the IDPA and IDPA Nebraska websites and they don't have anything listed for December.

[JTH]

Slightly off-topic, but is there a calendar or schedule somewhere? I looked at the IDPA and IDPA Nebraska websites and they don't have anything listed for December.

IDPA Nebraska gets updated when Aldo can solidly verify that matches will be held.  As such, just check back periodically on the website.  (And if you are on Facebook, like the IDPA Nebraska page to get timely updates.)

For the ENPS matches, there is a schedule page at:  http://www.easternnebraskapracticalshooters.com/schedule.html

There is also the schedule for the entire year at:
http://www.easternnebraskapracticalshooters.com/2014/2014-Schedule-1.pdf

Next year's schedule will probably come out towards mid-December.

[abbafandr]

I would like to know this since my pocket and appendix holster don't cut the mustard for IDPA

[redleg1013]

http://www.juliegolob.com/10-things-to-know-about-the-2014-idpa-back-up-gun-nationals

[redleg1013]

8.2.6.1.  Clubs may hold BUG matches where BUG guns compete in specially designed CoFs.  BUG matches are club level only unless approved by IDPA Headquarters as a Specialty Match.  To allow semi-automatic and revolver shooters to compete equally, all CoFs for BUG matches will be limited to five rounds per string, and firearms will start with five rounds maximum per string.  No reloads may be performed on the clock.

[JTH]

8.2.6.1.  Clubs may hold BUG matches where BUG guns compete in specially designed CoFs.  BUG matches are club level only unless approved by IDPA Headquarters as a Specialty Match.  To allow semi-automatic and revolver shooters to compete equally, all CoFs for BUG matches will be limited to five rounds per string, and firearms will start with five rounds maximum per string.  No reloads may be performed on the clock.

Yep.  But that doesn't actually quite answer my questions above.    The IDPA Nationals match FAQs (which I linked above) gave a number of good helpful hints, but the main question I still have is how many magazines are we going to need?

There is no reloading on the clock---but if a stage has 3 strings, people shooting semi-autos are going to need three mags.  (Which mean I'm either going to have to find more pocket-pistol mags or not shoot a Beretta Tomcat or a PF-9.)  We won't have time to have people reloading magazines between strings.  I may be shooting a G26, though it means I have to find and collect all of my G26 mags, which I don't normally need since I use G17 mags for backups---but you can't do that at a BUG match.

At BUG Nats (like I said above) you never drew from a holster, so certain issues were then moot---but you don't HAVE to do it that way, which is why I'm asking what are the conditions for the upcoming match (which instead of December, may be held in January.)

It'll be interesting---don't think we've ever had a match like it around here, so it should be fun.  But details help in terms of planning and being properly prepared. 

[redleg1013]

Well let's think about this... if there are no reloads on the clock, theoretically one could participate with one magazine, and reload in between strings; I mean how long does it really take to load five rounds? I understand the notion for expediency purposes, but then again we have had folks be johnny on the spot ammo hoppers for newcomers and I don't remember any matches going past noon.

Please note it is not my intent to be offensive in any way; it just seems that perhaps there is some over-thinking and fretting over a non-issue.

[JTH]

Well let's think about this... if there are no reloads on the clock, theoretically one could participate with one magazine, and reload in between strings; I mean how long does it really take to load five rounds?

Actually, quite a lot of time.  Most strings of fire (if only five rounds) are easily less than 10 seconds.  It'll take longer than that to load a magazine (compared to simply switching magazines), so you are (minimum) going to be doubling the time it takes to shoot a stage.

(If you don't believe me, try it.  Start with the gun empty and pointed, use a timer, and check how long it takes to simply insert a new mag and holster.  Then, using a timer, check how long it takes to remove the mag, holster the gun, get ammo and reload five rounds, draw the gun, make ready, and re-holster.  You'll be surprised how much extra time it really takes---particularly for people who AREN'T going to be trying to do it fast at a match.)

Recently, with over 20 people shooting two stages, we've already been running into time problems at the IDPA matches, as the range itself is supposed to be able to open up to general shooting by noon--and we have run past a couple of times now.

In general, for shooting matches, waiting for someone to load a magazine before each run simply isn't possible.  At the very least, having two magazines (one to shoot, and one to pass back to reload) will probably be needed. 

I understand the notion for expediency purposes, but then again we have had folks be johnny on the spot ammo hoppers for newcomers and I don't remember any matches going past noon.

So---two mags instead of one, bare minimum.  (And many pocket guns only come with one magazine.)  And it will still take extra time, because in the past when it has been done, the stage itself was longer, so the person loading had more time. 

And the last two matches I've attended went past noon both times.

Please note it is not my intent to be offensive in any way; it just seems that perhaps there is some over-thinking and fretting over a non-issue.

Oh, not offended.  But I've found that if the people shooting know what is expected of them, and know what to expect of the match, then you'll have many less issues during the match.

There's also a rather large difference between "preferring information and clarity" and "fretting".  I've been to enough matches where I had to go in fairly blind, I'm pretty solid on the difference. 

[redleg1013]

OMG mountains and mole hills bring what you have and make due.

[JTH]

OMG mountains and mole hills bring what you have and make due.

Purely for the sake of my curiosity, redleg, have you ever tried to host/run an action pistol competition match?  Or worked one?

Just curious.

[bkoenig]

Yeah, I think even reloading 5 rounds into a magazine would slow down a match to an unacceptable level.  It's one thing to stick another 5 into a revolver cylinder with a speedloader or speed strips, but ejecting a mag and manually loading 5 rounds would really eat up time.

I'm looking forward to this.  Can't decide if I want to use my J-Frame just for fun or use an autoloader which will make me (barely) more competitive.   

[redleg1013]

Yes I have. Not to be rude but I've got other things to do today beside getting into some "mine's bigger than yours" pissing match with you. You asked, I answered, I'm sorry that it wasn't to your liking. Try to have fun at your BUG match.

[JTH]

Yes I have. Not to be rude but I've got other things to do today beside getting into some "mine's bigger than yours" pissing match with you. You asked, I answered, I'm sorry that it wasn't to your liking. Try to have fun at your BUG match.

Not a comparison question---merely if asking you've had to deal with these sorts of problems before.    After all, IDPA isn't my normal competition sport, I'm simply looking at it from a USPSA/Steel Challenge point of view.

Matches such as Steel Challenge make it clear that you need at least two magazines minimum (preferably five) to shoot the match, as reloading a magazine by hand simply takes too much time between strings--and most matches don't have that kind of time.    (And as I've said, the last two IDPA matches did run over time, even though you mentioned that you don't recall any matches going past noon.)  I'm pretty sure that BUG Nats didn't allow people to reload magazines by hand during the stage---because it would take too much time.

If the matches you've worked/ran haven't had that problem, it would be useful to know how you've managed it, because others certainly do have that problem.

How did you manage it?

Going back to the original above statements, while IDPA BUG Nats didn't use holsters, the rules don't actually say that holsters aren't necessary, so a simple question asking about it seems reasonable.

If you think that is "mountains of out molehills" that's certainly up to you.  And if you don't care, that's certainly fine also.  Most people do, however, manage to let others think differently without issue instead of saying "OMG mountains and mole hills" while still saying "not to be rude" multiple times, which is normally a good sign that rudeness is going on.

I'm sure we will have fun at the BUG match.  After all, it is shooting.

[bullit]

THAT'S IT !!!!!  All this bickering...no BUG match until 2015 ....

[abbafandr]

THAT'S IT !!!!!  All this bickering...no BUG match until 2015 ....

 

[JTH]

...no BUG match until 2015 ....

Well, good, because I need to probably actually SHOOT my G26, PF-9, Tomcat .32, and j-frame at least once each before the BUG match so I remember how they work. 

I haven't shot that Tomcat in over 8 years.  PF-9, maybe two a year for about 20 rounds each.  J-frame-----um.  Twice?  Ever?

Man, I'd like to shoot the Tomcat, just for the heck of it.  It is a fun little gun.  Probably should OIL it, however.....