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Author Topic: What do you need to CCW?  (Read 2988 times)

Offline JTH

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What do you need to CCW?
« on: December 11, 2014, 06:43:30 AM »
Awhile back I had a discussion with several people about what they "needed" to CCW in Nebraska, and in that discussion they assured me that they were good shots, and knew how to defend themselves.  They just wanted to know what was needed from a CCW perspective.

I never did find out how they "knew" they were good shots, and why they thought they "knew" how to defend themselves. 

"Need" really is a short list.  But it is very different from what you WANT if you plan on CCWing.

http://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/what-do-you-need-to-ccw/

It does bring up the question---so what do YOU do to find out what all is outside of your circles?  How do YOU find out things you don't know, if you don't even KNOW you don't know them? 


What do YOU do to increase your circles, and decrease the area outside of your circles?  (The "YOU" keeps getting emphasized because I'm curious what you guys actually do to fix that.)
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2014, 01:55:56 PM »
What do YOU do to increase your circles, and decrease the area outside of your circles?

The diagram is logically flawed ... THIS I know.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2014, 02:21:37 PM »
You don't know "What you don't know".  You only know what you need to work on to improve.

Fly
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Offline JTH

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2014, 02:54:11 PM »
The diagram is logically flawed ... THIS I know.


Oh, yeah.  It has real problems.  The amusing part is that people realize what it MEANS really clearly---even if what it SAYS (from a logical perspective) doesn't make any sense.


Edited to add, because I started thinking about why this is clear to most people even though it is logically incorrect (since you can't know and not-know something at the same time): If you treat it from a statement case, instead of a meaning case, it really IS logically consistent.  After all, if there is something you know and you don't know, either:

1) you don't know you know it, or
2) you know that you don't know it

This diagram picks the first one of those to go with.   

In terms of meaning, then yeah, logically you can't know and not-know something.

You could think of it in terms of operators, instead of containers:  This circle contains a group of things.  The operation is that we know this group of things.  This other circle's operation is that we DON'T know this group of things.  If an item is in both circles, it depends on which operation we apply first: 

We don't know this thing, and we know it.  (don't know operates first)
We know this thing, but we don't know it.  (know operates first)

"Know" of course also meaning realize.  (We realize that we don't know this thing.  We don't realize that we do know this thing.)

That probably is why this diagram is so clear to people, even though from a meaning perspective it is impossible.  From an operation or status perspective, it makes perfect sense.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 03:21:37 PM by jthhapkido »
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2014, 05:21:53 PM »
Donald Rumsfeld, former SecDef, called them "Known Unknowns", which is a common term in project management parlance.

(Of course, the newsies freaked out and went crazy at that point.  Woulda been different if their very own SecDef, John Kerry, had uttered the very same expression.)

FWIW,


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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2014, 09:25:59 AM »
[Princess Bride Reference]
Inconceivable!

I do not think that diagram means what you think it means. :D
[/Princess Bride Reference]

The diagram is a good example/warning of looking at something and interpreting it within the confines of our own biases, prejudices and frame of reference.

Offline JTH

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2014, 11:38:30 AM »
[Princess Bride Reference]
Inconceivable!

I do not think that diagram means what you think it means. :D
[/Princess Bride Reference]

The diagram is a good example/warning of looking at something and interpreting it within the confines of our own biases, prejudices and frame of reference.

Is there something about the use of operators that is incorrect? 

As I said, obviously if it is taken as meanings for logical states, it is logically impossible.  However, what is incorrect about it being taken as operations?

Is there another aspect of this you'd like to discuss, as opposed to making oblique references without specifics?

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Offline DenmanShooter

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2014, 11:58:33 AM »
Really, whether the graph is correct or incorrect doesn't matter.

It conveys the idea behind the post in a visual way which is easy to understand.

We know some things, we don't know some things and there are things we don't even know that we don't know.

Great way to look at how we have to expand our horizons and look beyond our own small world to understand there are complexities to situations we aren't even aware of or cannot predict.

We can only be prepared for things we know and hopefully be able to evaluate and use the preparations we have made for the unknowns that may come up.

But we have to first admit there are things we don't even know we don't know.

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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2014, 11:58:59 AM »
Is there something about the use of operators that is incorrect? 

As I said, obviously if it is taken as meanings for logical states, it is logically impossible.  However, what is incorrect about it being taken as operations?

Is there another aspect of this you'd like to discuss, as opposed to making oblique references without specifics?



My Princess Bride reference was very specific.

For the diagram to work as "operations", as you suggest, we would need an order of operations.  Moreover, a Venn diagram is not an operational diagram.  It is a diagram that demonstrates logical relationships between data sets.

My reference above to interpreting things within the confines of our biases, prejudices and frame of reference was not intended to be "oblique" ... or ambiguous.

We all look at things through our inherent frame of reference.  It's human nature.  If you have little or no frame of reference for Venn diagrams, for instance, you may look at one and see "operations".  On the other hand, if you have spent years being educated on Venn diagrams, educating others on their use and utilizing them in your job ... you have a highly defined frame of reference.

With a highly defined frame of reference, one should be able to quickly look at something and immediately see what is right or wrong.  The risk of a highly defined frame of reference is that new data may be introduced causing that frame of reference to become largely invalid.

The risk of an undefined frame of reference is, of course, quite the opposite.

Apply to your own personal defense and what is "needed" for CCW as you will.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2014, 01:11:10 PM »
And yet another meandering thread. 

How does this apply to Zombie's?

Fly
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Offline AWick

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2014, 01:25:29 PM »
If there are variable parameters "A" "B" "C" "X" "Y" "Z" and I know the value of A and B  then yhey fall in the left. I know that C and X exist but don't know their complete value then they fall in the middle. If I'm unaware of Y and Z then they fall on the right.

Say a person is getting into CCW, if they KNOW that they have to use a specific holster but don't know how to use it,  wear it, or draw from it then it is sufficiently a known unknown. Say a person didn't know about having to announce ccw to an leo and then how to effectively and nicely inform the officer then then that would be a true unknown.


Edit: the value and parameters need to be adjusted, I might work on a better diagram :)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 01:36:59 PM by AWick »
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2014, 02:02:25 PM »
And yet another meandering thread. 

How does this apply to Zombie's?

Fly

Does this help?



Offline JTH

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2014, 02:34:53 PM »
My Princess Bride reference was very specific.

For the diagram to work as "operations", as you suggest, we would need an order of operations.  Moreover, a Venn diagram is not an operational diagram.  It is a diagram that demonstrates logical relationships between data sets.

Indeed.  But not every set of circles must be a Venn diagram.  (In a similar fashion, having a set order of operations might be helpful, but not necessary.  After all, the diagram isn't attempting to give people procedural rules, or even procedural outcomes given operating rules.)

Quote
My reference above to interpreting things within the confines of our biases, prejudices and frame of reference was not intended to be "oblique" ... or ambiguous.

We all look at things through our inherent frame of reference.  It's human nature.  If you have little or no frame of reference for Venn diagrams, for instance, you may look at one and see "operations".  On the other hand, if you have spent years being educated on Venn diagrams, educating others on their use and utilizing them in your job ... you have a highly defined frame of reference.

And yet, it is still possible to understand things from multiple reference frames.  (This is actually pretty common in a lot of different fields.)

Given a particular graphic, one of the useful aspects of the human mind is that we can indeed create multiple meanings from a single image.  In this case, that ability allows us to take something that has little logical meaning in one case, a different meaning in another---and for some people, there is a third in which it has no meaning as their reference frame does not include any of the above information.

Even for people who indeed use Venn diagrams in the manner you describe.  After all, mental flexibility isn't limited to people who don't use Venn diagrams.

Quote
With a highly defined frame of reference, one should be able to quickly look at something and immediately see what is right or wrong.  The risk of a highly defined frame of reference is that new data may be introduced causing that frame of reference to become largely invalid.

The risk of an undefined frame of reference is, of course, quite the opposite.

A risk of a defined frame of reference is that a person may attempt to make all things fit in that reference frame, whether it should be or not.

In common parlance, we of course say "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" or some variation.  In a similar situation, if a particular person spends a lot of time with Venn diagrams, they might assume that everything that resembles a Venn diagram is therefore a Venn diagram, only a Venn diagram, and nothing else is possible or permitted.

That, of course, is not only a risk, but a logical error.

Quote
Apply to your own personal defense and what is "needed" for CCW as you will.

Absolutely. 

In this case, we have a great example of how communication is not only based on how clearly a person speaks or presents, but the frame of reference of the person receiving the information.  If that person's frame of reference only allows for certain allowed modes, then no matter what mode is meant (particularly if it is multiple modes) then communication will be difficult.

(For example, if I required Venn diagrams to be precise and realistic, the Zombie one you provided is not logically impossible, but at the very least highly incorrect, as there are plenty of things to shoot in the head that aren't zombies----probably in a much higher proportion than there are things that look like zombies that need to be shot in the head.  But since my frames of reference include humor, I just find it funny.)
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2014, 02:40:40 PM »
Does this help?




LOL...NOW we are getting down to the important stuff.

Fly
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Offline bullit

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2014, 06:37:14 PM »
And yet another meandering thread. 

How does this apply to Zombie's?

Fly

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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2014, 08:50:44 AM »
In this case, we have a great example of how communication is not only based on how clearly a person speaks or presents, but the frame of reference of the person receiving the information.  If that person's frame of reference only allows for certain allowed modes, then no matter what mode is meant (particularly if it is multiple modes) then communication will be difficult.

Amazingly, you understand my initial point!  Although, my point was not limited strictly to communication.

Offline JTH

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2014, 09:26:10 AM »
Amazingly, you understand my initial point!  Although, my point was not limited strictly to communication.

Yes, what an amazing thing.
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Offline greg58

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2014, 06:51:35 PM »
You two are amazing!!

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Offline JTH

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Re: What do you need to CCW?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2014, 10:25:39 PM »
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