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Author Topic: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw  (Read 10908 times)

Offline JTH

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Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« on: January 08, 2015, 09:32:48 AM »
We've decided (we meaning Precision Response Training) to put up a series of short videos on various fundamental gun-handling skills--and more precisely, some of the common errors that are often seen regarding those skills, and what "fixes" said errors.

The first one we chose to talk about was the draw, specifically how many people perform fishing draws or bowling draws, and how NOT to do that.

The video isn't intended to be an instructional treatise on how to draw properly, merely a commentary on a common fundamental error that occurs frequently with that particular skill--and how to fix it. 

https://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/fundamental-gun-handling-videos-part-i-the-draw/

Over time (hopefully every couple of weeks) we'll put up another video about a different fundamental skills, with some simple fixes to common errors.

(If anyone has a particular gun-handling skill they want us to comment on, let us know!)
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Offline farmerbob

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 11:52:33 AM »
How about the mysteries of the consistent and proper trigger pull.....squeeze...press???
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

Offline JTH

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 01:23:11 PM »
How about the mysteries of the consistent and proper trigger pull.....squeeze...press???









(It's on the list.  :) )
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Offline farmerbob

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 01:56:55 PM »
I must say that was a very well put together and informative video, I didn't realize how much fishing and bowling I had been doing. Two thumbs up!!! :D
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

Offline David Hineline

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 03:24:06 PM »
As IPSC and IDPA RO/SO  the number of people that can not clear a live weapon at the end of shooting without either putting part of their hand in front of the muzzle or covering up the ejection port with their hand so I can't see what is going on. 
Machinegun owners blow thier load with one pull of the trigger

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 03:44:16 PM »
(It's on the list.   )

Add to the list "The combat roll" which is highly effective for entering a room full of bad guys.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline JTH

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2015, 03:52:25 PM »
As IPSC and IDPA RO/SO  the number of people that can not clear a live weapon at the end of shooting without either putting part of their hand in front of the muzzle or covering up the ejection port with their hand so I can't see what is going on. 

Hand in front of the muzzle = DQ, so I'd think it would be self-correcting, once people start getting DQed for everything. (Though I agree, people need to learn how to clear guns without sweeping themselves--matter of fact, people need to practice keeping their fingers off the trigger while doing all sorts of things, and their other body parts out of the way of the muzzle line, which makes it a good topic for a video!)

Covering the ejection port isn't against any sort of rule, and if the gun is presented with slide open so you can see the chamber, I don't understand the problem? 

I see that the IDPA rule is pretty much the same as the USPSA rule:
IDPA:  If the shooter is finished, all ammunition will be removed from the firearm and a clear chamber/cylinder will be shown to the SO.
USPSA: If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty.

...or did you mean keeping it covered when presenting to the RO?  Yeah, that would be annoying.

It is interesting how many gun owners don't actually know (and aren't competent with) the manual of arms for their firearms.  I'm not talking about grandmaster-level abilities, I'm simply talking about being able to load, reload, unload, and clear their handgun without doing something potentially dangerous with it.

You are right---that's a great topic for a video.  Thanks!
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Offline JTH

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2015, 03:55:12 PM »
Add to the list "The combat roll" which is highly effective for entering a room full of bad guys.

I can do that. 

It won't look THIS smooth, though.


(I have to admit, considering how easily he was "posing" as opposed to simply getting into a firing stance, I expecting him to start sashaying back up the runway at the end.)
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Offline Lmbass14

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2015, 04:11:17 PM »
Very good video.  I need more training, that's for sure.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2015, 05:21:42 PM »
I can do that. 

It won't look THIS smooth, though.

GOD...that man is my hero. He has the looks AND the skillz on both the range and the runway.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 07:38:35 PM »
Here's Expert Pistolero Jerry Miculek demonstrating the Draw:

http://bearingarms.com/quickly-draw-tactical-holster/

[He's also demonstrating re-holster.   In fact, he demonstrates re-holster even more than the draw.   But I digress........]

Anyhow, the first thing I immediately thought I saw him doing (wrong) with his draw was putting his shooting finger into the trigger guard at about 10 degrees or so from the vertical, as he is bringing his handgun up to shoot.

But then later in the video he says that the trigger finger must never be on the trigger/in the trigger guard until the handgun is level (90 degrees from vertical) and pointed downrange.

Would some of you much more expert trainers, examiners, and ROs please check out Mr. Miculek's technique in his video and report back here your findings??

Right now I'm kinda ready to promote our own local jthhapkido up a notch or so above the renowned Jim Miculek for practicing what he preaches on the range.  Provided that Tom doesn't raise his training class fees on account, that is.


sfg
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 07:41:19 PM by SemperFiGuy »
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Offline abbafandr

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2015, 08:20:21 PM »
I didn't know there was a name for those draws, but they seem appropriate.
I like the looks of that appendix holster, what kind is it?
Who did your voice over? :laugh:

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2015, 08:34:51 PM »
I can do that. 

It won't look THIS smooth, though.


(I have to admit, considering how easily he was "posing" as opposed to simply getting into a firing stance, I expecting him to start sashaying back up the runway at the end.)

That was one of the.....lamest things I've ever seen.

Offline DenmanShooter

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2015, 09:05:48 PM »
That was a very good video and explained the issues very well.  I was able to take away some good information.

Also, your comments on the site that you hadn't a script and your voice was failing, I did not notice at all.  You did a very good job presenting the information and I thought your voice held up well.

Very professional.

Thank you for the effort.  Looking forward to more.
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Offline farmerbob

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2015, 10:18:09 PM »
I have always been partial to the late great Bob Munden's draw, the fastest draw in the world, although not applicable for self defense.  R.I.P. BOB.


« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 10:28:51 PM by farmerbob »
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2015, 10:52:17 PM »
That was one of the.....lamest things I've ever seen.

This is the ugly face of jealousy.

Fly
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2015, 07:10:33 AM »
This is the ugly face of jealousy.

Fly

Hey, who are you calling jealous?

 ;D

Offline JTH

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2015, 12:05:34 PM »
I should note that before I say anything else, that:
1) I know Jerry, and I've shot both with him (on a squad),
2) and shot against him (in the same division, though thank god not in a man-vs-man steel knockdown competition because that would have been ridiculous), and
3) he's a good person who is remarkably patient with all the fans who bother him during matches,
4) while still being an absolute freak of nature in terms of speed, precision, and gun-handling skills.  (Much of which came from continuous, dedicated practice, but some of which is just because he is a freak of nature.)

Here's Expert Pistolero Jerry Miculek demonstrating the Draw:

I'm going to link directly to Jerry's video, because giving click-bait clicks to groups that merely show Jerry's video on their page annoys me.  (They are making money off his work.  While I'm completely good with people sharing his video and discussing it, in this case they aren't actually doing anything other than posting it for clicks.)



Quote
Anyhow, the first thing I immediately thought I saw him doing (wrong) with his draw was putting his shooting finger into the trigger guard at about 10 degrees or so from the vertical, as he is bringing his handgun up to shoot.

But then later in the video he says that the trigger finger must never be on the trigger/in the trigger guard until the handgun is level (90 degrees from vertical) and pointed downrange.

I agree that there is a certain amount of "do as I say, not as I do" here.  (Interestingly enough, he talks about the "Filipino draw" and the "American draw," suggests the American draw version as a better choice for most, but actually defaults to the Filipino draw style when pushed for speed on a close open target.  He does that in Steel Challenge, too.)

When I first watched the slow-mo stuff, it certainly seemed to me that he was putting his finger into the trigger guard REALLY early, and he certainly wasn't getting the gun pointed in the direction of the target until the end.

The slo-mo there, however, is a really good example of the difference between the "Filipino draw" and a bowling draw, though.  The "Filipino draw" goes up in an arc to the target, and while the sights aren't on target (or really in the eye-target view line at all) until the end, the gun itself acts in a smooth arc without any inefficiency or loss of direction motion at all.  A bowling draw, on the other hand, tends to include body english (that detracts from precision and slows down the draw), the extension of the arm and hand past the gun in the early parts of the draw (you can see that at 1:21 or 1:22 in my video) with the gun being "cast" toward the target so that there is significant wrist motion all through the draw.

You can see in the slow-mo part of Jerry's video how while there is some wrist motion in the beginning, the wrist is pretty much finished moving in the first 30 degrees or so, and the arms just arc the gun up straight into the aiming point.  Pretty much no wasted movement, which makes it very different from the bowling draw. 

So--back to the trigger finger thing:
He clearly says that the finger shouldn't be on the trigger until the gun is parallel to the ground.  And, he clearly is putting it in the trigger guard earlier than that himself.

Now, is it as bad as the video initially looks? (With the finger on the trigger pretty much right after it clear the holster?)

.....I don't think so.  I'm not CERTAIN, but I don't think so.

Jerry says:  "What you're seeing is just the camera angle. My finger is just bent along the frame and I don't actually start to put my finger in the trigger guard until it clears my body."

Looking at it...I don't see his finger actually moving into the trigger guard until the gun is about 30 degrees from vertical down (it was certainly bent, and certainly NEXT to it very early, though) ---but that may also be completely the camera angle with the finger beside-but-outside the trigger guard), because it is ALSO obvious that he doesn't actually take up any slack on the trigger until it is almost completely extended and on target.  It looks to me like his finger is IN the guard early on, but not putting any tension on the trigger till almost the end of the draw.

But---I dunno.  :/ I do know that camera angles make things hard to tell, I know that I don't draw in that fashion, and I know that neither I nor he suggest that other people draw that way.  :)

I also note that you don't have to draw in that fashion to get .75 second draws, either.  My speed limit (currently) consistently limits out to about .80 for a draw to an A-zone at 7 yards, though I've hit .76 before.  He, of course, can hit .75 all day.  However, plenty of people can also do that using the draw he says you should use (with the finger outside the trigger guard until the gun is horizontal) and manage those sorts of times.  (I've seen Matt Mink and Ben Stoeger both in a class demonstrate 0.75 draws on demand. I've seen Manny Bragg hit draws in .60s multiple times in a row in a class, which is fun to watch.)

Last comment:  Jerry has performed literally millions of draws.  I've never heard of him putting an ND into the ground, which makes me think he is getting his finger on the trigger later than it looks, because when you are practicing to push your speed, you DO sometimes pull the trigger early--and he hasn't shot himself. :)

I strongly suggest, however, that nobody performs draws like he does with respect to finger placement. 
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Offline JTH

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2015, 12:42:48 PM »
I didn't know there was a name for those draws, but they seem appropriate.
I like the looks of that appendix holster, what kind is it?
Who did your voice over? :laugh:

That one is the Dale Fricke Arachangel holster. That and my CCC Shaggy are the two main appendix carry holsters that I use. 

I did that video with a G19 I had around, because it was the only one that would fit in that leather Check-6 holster I wanted to use to show the bowling draw.  I used to love that thing--and right now, for the life of me, I can't remember why.  It binds the gun, requires a ridiculous amount of body english/reach to get the gun out and around the body, and would really hurt to fall on.

Why on earth did I like it so much?  Man, holsters have come a long way since then...(though I think that holster is still made!)

That was a very good video and explained the issues very well.  I was able to take away some good information.

Also, your comments on the site that you hadn't a script and your voice was failing, I did not notice at all.  You did a very good job presenting the information and I thought your voice held up well.

Glad it was useful!  I tried to cut out all the parts when my voice wasn't working or I was coughing.  When I was trying to put the clips together into a coherent format, I just kept seeing how many times I was searching for the right word to use for an explanation (and often failing!) but maybe I got most of those cut out so I didn't sound like an idiot.  Yay editing!  :)


I have always been partial to the late great Bob Munden's draw, the fastest draw in the world, although not applicable for self defense.  R.I.P. BOB.

Munden was just unbelievable.  Seriously ridiculously unbelievable in terms of the speed of his single-action-revolver draw/shoot ability.  He had a HUGE ego, and the talent and practiced skill to back up everything he said.  Watching him do various clips on Impossible Shots periodically was really cool.

The two-balloon shot was what I liked best--how it looked like only one shot, but when you slowed it down you could see it wasn't a trick, and he really did fire two shots at two different targets.  Love that clip.

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Offline farmerbob

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Re: Fundamental Gun Handling Videos, Part I: The Draw
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2015, 11:02:01 PM »
That's not fast, this is fast. :o





"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington