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Author Topic: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!  (Read 8015 times)

Offline ILoveCats

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2015, 04:07:14 PM »
Y'all have no idea the dangers we face when town is swarming with double digits in "the big city" for state high school something-or-other. Honest to God, I saw a lady going clockwise in a roundabout last weekend.
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Offline penname

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2015, 06:12:29 PM »
Honest to God, I saw a lady going clockwise in a roundabout last weekend.

Maybe she was from England or some other country where they drive on the wrong side of the road. I lived in England for three years and drove extensively in continental Europe too. Making the mental transition from clockwise in England to counterclockwise in Germany was sometimes mind bending, especially at the mini-roundabouts.

Offline DenmanShooter

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2015, 08:38:03 PM »
And a bit of that was sarcastic to make a point


Point taken and you are forgiven.  When growing up in 29 county and 31 county we used to make fun of the 1 county people who came out and thought they were "hunting" and would have pity on them when they left the gates open and broke down the fences because they didn't know any better.  After all, we were just stupid farmers to them. :)




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Offline ILoveCats

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2015, 08:47:58 PM »
Growing up out that way there was always the legend of some "Northern 1 County" guys who came out grouse hunting, and later proudly showed off the trunk full of meadow larks they bagged.
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2015, 08:48:52 PM »
Quote
Maybe she was from England or some other country.......

Maybe.....Australia.   You know:  Down Under

They've always said that cyclones, tornados, whirlpools, and sink drains swirl in the opposite direction Down There.

Dunno.   Never been there.

But have never known a Physicist to lie.   Weather People, yes.   All the time.

It does sorta make sense.   And it could explain the lady in the roundabout.

Was she driving a Holden????


FWIW,

sfg
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Offline DenmanShooter

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2015, 08:50:16 PM »
Growing up out that way there was always the legend of some "Northern 1 County" guys who came out grouse hunting, and later proudly showed off the trunk full of meadow larks they bagged.


That needs a thumbs up. 
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Offline ziggy

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2015, 10:03:59 PM »
Quote from: jthhapkido
True, it never occurred to me that someone wouldn't simply set up an auto-login for the forum, and come browse without being logged on.

Setting up auto log on's is a great way to open yourself up to a browser cookie stealing hack. Not much risk if you only accessing forums with your browser, but if you're also doing online banking, PayPal and credit cards auto log on's aren't such a great idea. Easier for me to just dump the cookies when I close the browser. Keeps the hacking exposure down.

Quote from: jthhapkido
Or ever posting.

I only post when I have something to say. You?

Quote from: jthhapkido
I ask again:  Did you even READ the article that I wrote?

Three times since you made your OP and then challenged me twice to "READ the article". I had the same issues with your blog post each time I read it.


First Issue
There's a common counter marketing approach called FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). When a vendor is having difficulty competing and isn't attracting customers with the value of their product/service, they use FUD to try to drive customers from other competitors. At the end of your blog post you said...

Quote from: jthhapkido-blog
People who are reading stuff like that?  You are going to want to disregard those, and look for after-action reports or class evaluations from people who actually know what they are talking about.

If that came from the "person on the street," it'd be an interesting opinion. Coming from a vendor, that's FUD. Instead of articulating the value you're bringing, you're creating doubt about someone else. It may not have been your intention, but that's FUD.


Second Issue
In your blog post you said
Quote from: jthhapkido-blog
People who say stuff like that?  Please stop, at least until you have enough knowledge to make a comparison to a class that had a good curriculum and was competently taught.

I'll say what I said in my first post in this thread. That sounds incredibly controlling. Who made you the judge of who's knowledgeable enough and who's competent enough to be able to express an opinion?

Third Issue
In your original post you said...
Quote from: jthhapkido-blog
Make sure you pay attention to the ratings and commentary from the people who CAN tell you if the content was any good.

Example:  Zeeb runs a GREAT class in Legal Aspects of Lethal Force.  A number of us who actually spend time thinking about and teaching legal aspects of use of force for firearms have taken the class, and uniformly think it is very well-done...

How are you suggesting identifying those people? By how they write their reviews? Unless you actually know the people posting the comments - all web reviews have an equally low value. Not zero, but really low. If you don't know the reviewers, it doesn't matter if someone says "It was a great class" or they go with your "Zeeb runs a GREAT class in Legal Aspects..." There's no way to know what the reviewer's background or experience is. Even if they list experience, just because it's printed on the web doesn't mean it's true.  There's no way to know if the people in a web photo are the same people that wrote the comments, even if they say "that's me in the photo." There's no way to know if someone making an individual comment ever even attended the training (companies hire "specialty" firms to create positive web images). What you can do is look at the gist of all the comments and see if overall they are generally positive or not. You can also assume reviews were mostly written by people the class was designed for. Pretty unlikely Paul Howe will be taking and commenting on a Nebraska Basic CCW class. More likely to be a new shooter.


Offline JTH

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2015, 05:57:34 AM »
There's a common counter marketing approach called FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). When a vendor is having difficulty competing and isn't attracting customers with the value of their product/service, they use FUD to try to drive customers from other competitors. At the end of your blog post you said...

If that came from the "person on the street," it'd be an interesting opinion. Coming from a vendor, that's FUD. Instead of articulating the value you're bringing, you're creating doubt about someone else. It may not have been your intention, but that's FUD.

Hm.  What an interesting idea.  Two people say the exact same thing with the exact same meaning (and the exact same level of truth) and yet, according to you, one is FUD marketing, and the other isn't.

What an odd idea.

Particularly when the entire idea is to get knowledgeable people to create helpful, intelligent reviews of a range of classes to help people, none of which is directed at any particular training group, but instead at all training groups.

Right, right, that's creating Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.  Right.

Quote
I'll say what I said in my first post in this thread. That sounds incredibly controlling. Who made you the judge of who's knowledgeable enough and who's competent enough to be able to express an opinion?

I'm curious if you think that saying "please don't talk about things you don't know about" and "you are not allowed to talk about things you don't know about" mean the same thing....?

Or in your life, has no one ever made a polite request for you to stop doing something that you didn't take as an autocractic "You are not allowed to do that ever!"

Quote
How are you suggesting identifying those people? By how they write their reviews? Unless you actually know the people posting the comments - all web reviews have an equally low value. Not zero, but really low. If you don't know the reviewers, it doesn't matter if someone says "It was a great class" or they go with your "Zeeb runs a GREAT class in Legal Aspects..."

Hence why I phrased my off-the-cuff suggestion the way I did.

Quote
There's no way to know what the reviewer's background or experience is. Even if they list experience, just because it's printed on the web doesn't mean it's true.  There's no way to know if the people in a web photo are the same people that wrote the comments, even if they say "that's me in the photo." There's no way to know if someone making an individual comment ever even attended the training (companies hire "specialty" firms to create positive web images).

Right, right, because here on this local forum, people will indeed spend the money and create a persona to do that.  If we have an area in which people can have a brief bio of their training and experience, and from that give reviews, obviously the people who do so will all lie.

"If you don't know the reviewers" --- yes, well, that's the handy thing about this forum.  Pretty quickly, people start to know each other.  So people who have been around for awhile actually WILL know if others are lying.  And new people will then know that there are checks on that sort of thing.

Quote
What you can do is look at the gist of all the comments and see if overall they are generally positive or not. You can also assume reviews were mostly written by people the class was designed for.

...which doesn't actually solve the problem in any way.   As my post pretty much clearly explained.

Quote
Pretty unlikely Paul Howe will be taking and commenting on a Nebraska Basic CCW class. More likely to be a new shooter.

Yep.  So the vast majority of the reviews of CCW classes, particularly ones from people who have only taken one class, actually contain almost NO useful commentary other than "I liked the instructor, he made me feel good."

There are cases where that isn't true, however, and THOSE reviews would be ones that it would be helpful to know.

Basically, what I'm getting from you is that you think that it is controlling and elitist of me to want to be able to tell which reviews come with a backing of knowledge and experience, and which don't. 

I don't recall ever saying "YOU MAY NOT POST" to anyone.  It would be nice, obviously, if people who don't know what they are talking about would stop talking on the topic that they don't know.  (Maybe you like reading that stuff, but I don't.)   That of course is not the same as saying "you CAN'T post."

In your world, does "please stop" mean "I'm not going to allow this"?



I note you seem to have dropped the "don't you have a moral obligation" thing---nice to see you finally figured that one out.
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Offline ILoveCats

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2015, 10:24:33 AM »
This is getting weird and troll-like.  The blog post was so innocuous, that I don't know how anyone could take offense to it (unless one were in a competing business in the same industry, and had low quality standards.)

The whole "FUD" thing a couple posts back could be a Philosophy 101 textbook chapter on logical fallacies.  The only thing the OP is championing is high quality standards.  The only thing the OP is denigrating is low quality standards.  No specific competing business was named. 

An analogy would be if the Honda dealership near me ran an advertisement encouraging new car buyers to consider reasonably scientific and credible sources (e.g. JD Power, Consumer Reports) when considering quality and longevity of your next new car.  No other make or model is mentioned by name, so nobody should get their panties in a bunch.  And hey, it's logical advice.  I as the consumer am better off if I ignore social media reviews like, "My frens un I LUV my new Volkswagon .. its soooooo cute 'n kool LOL" and I go to Consumer Reports and discover that, indeed, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt should be foremost in my mind if I'm considering buying a Volkswagon!  (My mechanic refers to them as, "absolutely the nicest car in which you'll ever be stranded by the side of the road.")

If jthapkido is the Honda of trainers, he has every right (and maybe the moral duty, in a safety-related industry) to shout from the mountaintops that his is a serious industry, we should all have the highest standards, and we should eschew trainers and student reviewers who don't take the issue seriously. 
"Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder." ~ FCK

Offline JTH

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2015, 12:24:55 PM »
This is getting weird and troll-like.  The blog post was so innocuous, that I don't know how anyone could take offense to it (unless one were in a competing business in the same industry, and had low quality standards.)

Thank you for saying this, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking it.

Quote
If jthapkido is the Honda of trainers,

Honda?  Honda.

[sigh]

Could I at LEAST be the Porche?  BMW? Audi? Lotus?

...fine.  Honda.


(The person who posted this picture called it "The Most Boring Car In The World."  However he also said: "Apparently they are the least likely to be stolen ...invisible to potential thieves" so I suppose that works from a crime-prevention viewpoint.  :) )
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Offline Mali

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2015, 12:55:15 PM »
This is getting weird and troll-like.  The blog post was so innocuous, that I don't know how anyone could take offense to it (unless one were in a competing business in the same industry, and had low quality standards.)

The whole "FUD" thing a couple posts back could be a Philosophy 101 textbook chapter on logical fallacies.  The only thing the OP is championing is high quality standards.  The only thing the OP is denigrating is low quality standards.  No specific competing business was named. 

An analogy would be if the Honda dealership near me ran an advertisement encouraging new car buyers to consider reasonably scientific and credible sources (e.g. JD Power, Consumer Reports) when considering quality and longevity of your next new car.  No other make or model is mentioned by name, so nobody should get their panties in a bunch.  And hey, it's logical advice.  I as the consumer am better off if I ignore social media reviews like, "My frens un I LUV my new Volkswagon .. its soooooo cute 'n kool LOL" and I go to Consumer Reports and discover that, indeed, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt should be foremost in my mind if I'm considering buying a Volkswagon!  (My mechanic refers to them as, "absolutely the nicest car in which you'll ever be stranded by the side of the road.")

If jthapkido is the Honda of trainers, he has every right (and maybe the moral duty, in a safety-related industry) to shout from the mountaintops that his is a serious industry, we should all have the highest standards, and we should eschew trainers and student reviewers who don't take the issue seriously. 
I have been staying out of this discussion since I had nothing to add, but The FUD comment was quite off base. I work with Microsoft products and THEY are the Kings of FUD so I am quite famliar with what FUD is when I see it.
But the biggest issue was that this was no longer about the original topic, which I thought was a very well thought out post about making sure to check the credibility of a poster before assuming they know what they are talking about in their post.  Pretty straight forward and logical.

Thank you, FCK, for saying the above and JTH for the original post.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. - Ronald Reagan

Offline ILoveCats

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2015, 02:10:48 PM »
As for the second issue I also respectfully disagree that it's controlling to advocate for intelligent reviews or hold anyone to high standards.  And I shudder a little bit to type the word "controlling", which is a word I hadn't heard much since High School -- until I moved to Nebraska.  For a Red State we sure have a lot of thin skins, insecurities and gossiping behind people's backs.  We could use a little infusion of Boston or Brooklyn in-your-face frankness, with a little snobbery mixed in to boot.

Almost everyone is an expert on something.  Everyone's an idiot about a whole lot of things.  It's wise to know your areas for improvement, then defer to and learn from people who spend most of their work, and/or private life, studying something. 

I've got a stack of ~15 cocktail books on my end table, comprising many centuries of collective knowledge.  On top of that are some seed catalogs, because while others are getting ready to get their tomato and cucumber plants started for summer, I'm getting ready to plant my wormwood and horehound for making my bitters.  Everyone's gotta have a hobby, right?  So yeah, darn right I'm going to roll my eyes when I read Susie Sorority's post on Yelp that thus-and-such place has the best bartender in the WORLD because they make the awesomest appletinis.  And I'm going to tell a bartender to throw it out and do it over the right way if he shakes rather than stirs my Manhattan. 

Who made me the expert to say what's right and wrong?  Well, I did, through many years of fun, avocatoinal study.  If that snobbishness makes anyone feel insecure, too bad.  They have every right to become an expert on whatever they want.  And when they do I'll admire and learn from their expertise.

Now hobbies are all fun and games, but teaching people to use a firearm... that's serious business.  So yeah I'm really going to roll out the snobbishness when I see pictures of students pointing weapons at the backs of other students' heads.


"Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder." ~ FCK

Offline Mali

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2015, 02:16:12 PM »
Here here!
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. - Ronald Reagan

Offline 66bigblock

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2015, 02:43:48 PM »

[sigh]

Could I at LEAST be the Porche?  BMW? Audi? Lotus?



If you want to be known as wildly overpriced, pretentious, completely unnecessary, and break down daily, I guess you can... ;D   ;D


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I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.  I carry a lot of ammo because I cant run very fast.

Offline JTH

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2015, 02:51:21 PM »
If you want to be known as wildly overpriced, pretentious, completely unnecessary, and break down daily, I guess you can... ;D   ;D

But they are REALLY fast!

(At least some of them are.  Porsche 911, BMW M3, Audi R8, Lotus Exige S.....)

FAST!

....and yet:  Honda.  [sigh]
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Offline DenmanShooter

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2015, 09:48:10 PM »




  So yeah, darn right I'm going to roll my eyes when I read Susie Sorority's post on Yelp that thus-and-such place has the best bartender in the WORLD because they make the awesomest appletinis.  And I'm going to tell a bartender to throw it out and do it over the right way if he shakes rather than stirs my Manhattan. 


What I find disturbing is that you read YELP.  ;)
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Offline ziggy

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2015, 09:42:14 AM »
Hm.  What an interesting idea.  Two people say the exact same thing with the exact same meaning (and the exact same level of truth) and yet, according to you, one is FUD marketing, and the other isn't.

What an odd idea.

....

Absolutely two different circumstances and not odd at all. I get you'll never agree, but I want to clearly lay this out for the thread, then I won't post to the thread again.

This has everything to do with you being a business person that has services that compete with "Instructor Bob (wink, wink)." Wink, wink because everybody seems to know who he is except me.

1) If I was "Instructor Bob", I'd be dialing my attorney to talk about defamation. I don't know who "Instructor Bob" is, but everybody else seems to. Not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure in Nebraska you can't use not naming someone as a defense against defamation if others understand who you're talking about. People on this forum seem to understand clearly who you were talking about. They understood well enough to know his Facebook page and post an image of one of his classes. I've seen there are attorney's that are members of Nebraska Firearms and post to the forums here. Maybe they could weigh in with a precise answer.

2) In any of the other licensed professions in Nebraska that I'm familiar with, if you had made a public blog post that took a swipe at a business competitor like yours did, it would be considered unethical business conduct and you'd get disciplined by the licensing board. I'm pretty sure that's true from hair stylists and real estate agents all the way to physicians and attorneys. The State Patrol may not discipline CCW instructors for that, but from my perspective just because there's not a consequence doesn't mean it's an ethical business practice. ETA: Oh yeah, those other licensed professions do have a moral/ethical responsibility to report dangerous and unethical behavior by other licensees.

3) In your blog post, you use the terms "not knowledgeable" and "not competent" to describe people reviewing CCW training classes. The proper synonyms for those terms are "ignorant" and "incompetent." First, calling some large group of people you don't know ignorant and incompetent, no matter how nicely you try to phrase it, would seem to me (maybe only me) to be arrogant and rude. Beyond that though, is that your business strategy for attracting potential customers to take your training classes? You want to attract them by insulting them?

4) Here's the irony of your original post to this thread.

You use this example: "Zeeb runs a GREAT class in Legal Aspects of Lethal Force.  A number of us who actually spend time thinking about and teaching legal aspects of use of force for firearms have taken the class, and uniformly think it is very well-done, and that people should go to it."

First, this isn't about Chris Zeeb, if that's who you're referring to. I hear he's a great instructor. It's about your example using a legal aspects class.

You could have spent years thinking about legal use of force. That doesn't mean your an expert in the use of lethal force. It just means you've spent years thinking about it. I'm sure "Instructor Bob" spent years thinking about concealed carry and teaching his CCW class. How qualified do you consider "Instructor Bob" is to review how CCW classes are conducted?

You spent a third of your blog post discussing how you don't want people to post reviews when they aren't knowledge and competent to make them. Then as your example of the right way to do things you use a review of the content of a legal aspects class. Using the standards for posting reviews you outlined in your blog, unless you were an attorney with that specialty you wouldn't be knowledgeable enough or competent enough to make that review. Just a guess, but I don't think you see the irony in that.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 12:01:37 PM by ziggy »

Offline Mali

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2015, 01:11:25 PM »
Ziggy,
Give it up.  You really aren't getting any traction here and really not making a valid argument. Thank you for taking to time to post. We'll just return to our regularly schedule topics.
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Offline JTH

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2015, 09:55:40 PM »
1) If I was "Instructor Bob", I'd be dialing my attorney to talk about defamation. I don't know who "Instructor Bob" is, but everybody else seems to. Not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure in Nebraska you can't use not naming someone as a defense against defamation if others understand who you're talking about. People on this forum seem to understand clearly who you were talking about. They understood well enough to know his Facebook page and post an image of one of his classes. I've seen there are attorney's that are members of Nebraska Firearms and post to the forums here. Maybe they could weigh in with a precise answer.

You are a friend of Gary's, aren't you?

I suggest that you actually look up what that would entail before making ignorant commentary about it.

Quote
2) In any of the other licensed professions in Nebraska that I'm familiar with, if you had made a public blog post that took a swipe at a business competitor like yours did, it would be considered unethical business conduct and you'd get disciplined by the licensing board. I'm pretty sure that's true from hair stylists and real estate agents all the way to physicians and attorneys.

Again, you apparently have no idea what you are talking about.  Seriously, really, you should stop talking.  You apparently don't understand the entire concept of business ethics and professional conduct.

...but more importantly, you still seem to have this idea that the post was about Instructor Bob, all evidence to the contrary.  That's pretty amazing.

{snip nonsense}

Quote
3) In your blog post, you use the terms "not knowledgeable" and "not competent" to describe people reviewing CCW training classes. The proper synonyms for those terms are "ignorant" and "incompetent." First, calling some large group of people you don't know ignorant and incompetent, no matter how nicely you try to phrase it, would seem to me (maybe only me) to be arrogant and rude. Beyond that though, is that your business strategy for attracting potential customers to take your training classes? You want to attract them by insulting them?

I can't really help how your mind decides to perceive reality. 

The good thing is that you seem to be the only person who perceives reality in that way that you do.  While it is sometimes good to be that special person who understand things in a way that no one else does, I'm not sure this is one of those cases.

Quote
4) Here's the irony of your original post to this thread.

{snip discussion in which to dissimilar things were compared irrationally.}

You spent a third of your blog post discussing how you don't want people to post reviews when they aren't knowledge and competent to make them. Then as your example of the right way to do things you use a review of the content of a legal aspects class. Using the standards for posting reviews you outlined in your blog, unless you were an attorney with that specialty you wouldn't be knowledgeable enough or competent enough to make that review. Just a guess, but I don't think you see the irony in that.

You are aware that there are a number of people in professions other than lawyers who specialize in knowledge regarding legal use of force, right? 

Right?  No?  Okay.  Never mind.


Ziggy, I'd like to thank you for bringing up an extremely unique perspective on written language and meaning.  The fact that your understanding of the situation bears little resemblance to reality should not deter you from future similar cognitive exercises, and the fact that many people in this thread (many of whom I don't know other than via this forum and thus upon whom I have no influence) not only don't agree with your viewpoint but don't even understand why you would think in that fashion should also not deter you from continuing to live in your special snowflake way.

In general, I tend to worry that the meaning of what I'm trying to convey in my blog articles is unclear and my points stated so badly that people not only misunderstand, but take away entirely the wrong conclusions from my writing.  I try to write carefully, with clarity, but I worry.

This thread has actually reassured me that to the people who think in a normal, reasonable fashion who actually take the time to read what I've wrote (which I appreciate, because there are a lot of other choices out there of things to read), my meaning seems clear when they take the written word to mean what it says.

That's important to me (that I'm clear in what I say) so it is nice to see that.




Edited to change an "of" to a "to" for clarity.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 12:47:33 PM by jthhapkido »
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Offline JTH

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Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2015, 08:36:49 PM »
Wonder if this is FUD?  No?  Yes?

...or maybe the author is just trying to make a point about careful choices of instructors.

http://looserounds.com/2015/02/28/instructors-they-aint-all-the-same/
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