ATF to reclassify armor piercing ammo

[depserv]

President Regan the one who banned new machinegun ownership, is also the one who signed the laws against AP handgun ammo.  So I guess we can keep blaming the Democrats if we want.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=37785

I don't like everything Reagan did, but the good he did outweighs the bad.  This law was based in a lie from the beginning, sold by the big lie machine called the liberal press.  We didn't have cable then and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet so countering the big lie campaigns of the liberal press was more problematic then.  I don't know if Reagan and his team really did buy the lie the law was based in or if they just caved in to the pressure.  The law that was passed and signed by Reagan though had been supposedly fixed by the NRA, which in my opinion also caved in to pressure from the liars in liberal media.  Reagan and the NRA should have known that their attempts to fix a law that was fundamentally flawed would likely be betrayed by an anti-gun president down the road but apparently they didn't, or maybe they just thought any such betrayal could be dealt with.  None of that matters now though, except to show the importance in not giving in to anti-gun bigots expecting them and their allies in the liberal press to be appeased.  What matters today though is not who originally signed this bad law, but how it is being used today by the most anti-freedom president we have ever had.

The law against new machineguns was part of the Firearms Owners Protection Act if I remember right, which was a very good bill that had the machinegun ban added by unscrupulous enemies in Congress.  Signing the bill was probably still a good thing, though the ban should have been stripped away first, and I don't know why it wasn't.

[RobertH]

I don't like everything Reagan did, but the good he did outweighs the bad.  This law was based in a lie from the beginning, sold by the big lie machine called the liberal press.  We didn't have cable then and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet so countering the big lie campaigns of the liberal press was more problematic then.  I don't know if Reagan and his team really did buy the lie the law was based in or if they just caved in to the pressure.  The law that was passed and signed by Reagan though had been supposedly fixed by the NRA, which in my opinion also caved in to pressure from the liars in liberal media.  Reagan and the NRA should have known that their attempts to fix a law that was fundamentally flawed would likely be betrayed by an anti-gun president down the road but apparently they didn't, or maybe they just thought any such betrayal could be dealt with.  None of that matters now though, except to show the importance in not giving in to anti-gun bigots expecting them and their allies in the liberal press to be appeased.  What matters today though is not who originally signed this bad law, but how it is being used today by the most anti-freedom president we have ever had.

The law against new machineguns was part of the Firearms Owners Protection Act if I remember right, which was a very good bill that had the machinegun ban added by unscrupulous enemies in Congress.  Signing the bill was probably still a good thing, though the ban should have been stripped away first, and I don't know why it wasn't.

FOPA of 86 included the Hughes Amendment which outlawed new MGs, but it did allow ammo to be shipped to your house and a few other things, but that MG thing still makes me mad. I believe the Hughes Amendment was a last second thing that would allow it to pass and the NRA was ok with it. Another reason i dont like the NRA.

[Phantom]

There might be a new Wrinkle on this too ... check this out.
(as reported today on Cam & Co NRAnews )

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761

[66bigblock]

interesting article for sure.

So, what does this do to a person that is in possession of green tip once the atf makes it official that it is banned?


66bigblock

[RobertH]

interesting article for sure.

So, what does this do to a person that is in possession of green tip once the atf makes it official that it is banned?

66bigblock

from what i have heard is this: it is illegal to manufacture or import, but you can sell/trade/possess just fine.  some states have anti-AP rules.

[AAllen]

There might be a new Wrinkle on this too ... check this out.
(as reported today on Cam & Co NRAnews )

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761

Yes the ban is already in place, the comment period is so people can voice their opinion about how it is to take effect.  The ATF went around normal procedure to do this and unless a new Attorney General over rules it (they have the ability to create exemptions) or Congress ends the ban on "Cop Killer" (remember the debates from back in the 90's) this will stand.

[Mudinyeri]

There might be a new Wrinkle on this too ... check this out.
(as reported today on Cam & Co NRAnews )

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761

I've seen that article several times today in various places.  Trek Tech Black reported that the ban was already in place back on February 16th.  This is old news.

[RedDot]

Yes, it's already happened.  More to follow is my guess.  I think I'm through emailing, calling or writing reps in D.C. as I don't believe they can or have the will to truly do anything about it.  The enforcers answer to no one but their appointed dept. chiefs and they answer only to the current administration who have made it plain they answer to no one. 

If you want an effective letter-writing campaign, gather the names of govt. agents in your local branch offices and bombard them individually.  As I see it, these are the people you need to win over and/or influence.  The boots you may feel pressing down upon your individual rights and freedoms will not be those of Obama or Holder, but a long line of  unremarked agents who hide behind the notion of just doing what their told.  In some ways they are more dangerous to our rights than the sycophants and true believers as they may know what they are being ordered to do is wrong yet follow them anyway.  Not to try to make some sort of dramatic comparisons, but historically speaking, almost all of the atrocities and injustices of dictatorships are carried out by "Average Joes" with no greater vision than the next paycheck.  Scary , huh?

So in the mean time, lawsuits will be filed, judgments rendered, appeals filed and reviewed.  I can't help but feel though that the motivations which led to the issuing of the many questionable at best executive orders and rule changes, hold more weight to this administration than the legal processes they were intended to get around in the first place.  I'm not giving up on what I believe, but being repeatedly out-flanked would seem to call for a review of tactics. 

[Husker_Fan]

interesting article for sure.

So, what does this do to a person that is in possession of green tip once the atf makes it official that it is banned?


66bigblock

Shoot it or hoard it. From the ATF:

"ATF recognizes that this ammunition is widely available to the public. Because it is legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law, withdrawing the exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition."

[depserv]

Patriots should make this illegal edict part of the next Presidential election, and it should be part of the debate among Republicans during the nomination process.  The last few cycles the Republicans made it a point to keep gun control out of the debate, and Obama was more than happy to go along with that.  The result was anti-gun Republican nominees, even though gun control is unpopular among rank and file Republicans.  In fact even both Bushes were anti-gun, though less so than Obama and Clinton.

A Republican President who is a loyal American can and will overturn this illegal edict more or less immediately on assuming his office.  The question is, can we get the Republicans to nominate a loyal American.  Toward that end, it is up to us to make gun control a part of the upcoming political debate, because if we don't, the establishment politicians won't either.

[Husker_Fan]

The worst thing for gun owners would be an anti-gun Republican. At least with a Democrat, the Republicans in congress will fight out of partisan self interest. If a Republican like Chrstie floats it, the Republicans in congress probably wouldn't fight it.

[NE Bull]

Saw this posted earlier elsewhere, direct from ATF:
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Publications/notice_of_publishing_error.pdf

NOTICE OF PUBLISHING ERROR
On Feb. 13, 2015, ATF released for public comment a proposed framework to guide its
determination on what ammunition is "primarily intended for sporting purposes" for purposes of
granting exemptions to the Gun Control Act’s prohibition on armor piecing ammunition. The
posted framework is only a proposal, posted for the purpose of receiving public comment, and no
final determinations have been made.
Media reports have noted that the 2014 ATF Regulation Guide published online does not contain
a listing of the exemptions for armor piercing ammunition, and conclude that the absence of this
listing indicates these exemptions have been rescinded. This is not the case.
Please be advised that ATF has not rescinded any armor piercing ammunition exemption, and the
fact they are not listed in the 2014 online edition of the regulations was an error which has no
legal impact on the validity of the exemptions. The existing exemptions for armor piercing
ammunition, which apply to 5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855 projectiles (identified by a green
coating on the projectile tip), and the U.S .30-06 M2AP projectile (identified by a black coating
on the projectile tip), remain in effect.
The listing of Armor Piercing Ammunition exemptions can be found in the 2005 ATF
Regulation Guide on page 166, which is posted here.
The 2014 Regulation Guide will be corrected in PDF format to include the listing of armor
piercing ammunition exemptions and posted shortly. The e-book/iBook version of the
Regulation Guide will be corrected in the near future. ATF apologizes for any confusion caused
by this publishing error.

Can anyone else verify this?
End of the story? or Pacifying the masses for the moment?

[Dan W]

There was, by many accounts, a publishing error last year, but that does not change the BATFE's desire to reclassify M855 this year and my guess is that will happen despite our protests.

[dkarp]

Yes the ban is already in place, the comment period is so people can voice their opinion about how it is to take effect.  The ATF went around normal procedure to do this and unless a new Attorney General over rules it (they have the ability to create exemptions) or Congress ends the ban on "Cop Killer" (remember the debates from back in the 90's) this will stand.

Why do you keep saying it's already banned? Everything I have read so far talks about "proposed removal of exemption" of M855. I am betting all the ammo sellers are racing to get more imported before the ban takes place...

[mott555]

"Publishing error"? 

[wcr]

Washington Examiner  reportedthat 42 Senators and 238 House members had joined to oppose the ban.
Would like to know if our Representatives/Senators signed.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/52-senators-warn-of-sweeping-ammo-bans-say-2nd-amendment-at-risk/article/2561295

[Lmbass14]

Did see Fischer and Sasse's name on this.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/52-senators-warn-of-sweeping-ammo-bans-say-2nd-amendment-at-risk/article/2561295

Sincerely,

Senators joining Grassley on the letter include Mike Rounds (R-S.D.); John Thune (R-S.D.); Cory Gardner (R-Colo.); Tom Cotton (R-Ark.); John Hoeven (R-N.D.); Joni Ernst (R-Iowa); David Vitter (R-La); Michael Crapo (R-Idaho); Jerry Moran (R-Kan.); David Perdue (R-Ga.); James Risch (R-Idaho); John Isakson (R-Ga.); Steve Daines (R-Mont.); Dean Heller (R-Nev.); Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.); Richard Burr (R-N.C.); Roy Blunt (R-Mo.); Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.); Bill Cassidy (R-La.); John Boozman (R-Ark.); Mike Enzi (R-Wyo.); Ted Cruz (R-Texas); Thom Tillis (R-N.C.); Orrin Hatch (R-Utah); Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.); James Lankford (R-Okla.); Richard Shelby (R-Ala.); Deb Fischer (R-Neb.); Thad Cochran (R-Miss.); Shelley Capito (R-W. Va.); Pat Roberts (R-Kan.); Pat Toomey (R-Pa.); Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska); John Cornyn (R-Texas); Ron Johnson (R-Wis.); Michael Lee (R-Utah); John Barrasso (R-Wyo.); Marco Rubio (R- Fla.); Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.); Dan Coats (R-Ind.); Bob Corker (R-Tenn.); Tim Scott (R-S.C.); Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.); Ben Sasse (R-Neb.); Roger Wicker (R-Miss.); Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.); Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.); Rand Paul (R-Ky.); John McCain (R-Ariz.); Rob Portman (R-Ohio); Dan Sullivan (R-Alaska); and Susan Collins (R-Maine).

[FarmerRick]

ATF HQ  @ATFHQ
Follow
You spoke, we listened. @ATFHQ plans more study on the proposed AP Ammo exemption framework. See more http://ow.ly/Ka7iQ
11:21 AM - 10 Mar 2015

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html

NOTICE TO THOSE COMMENTING ON THE ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION EXEMPTION FRAMEWORK

Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.

Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.



Translation:  Oops, you caught us trying to screw gun owners yet again.  We will wait til the smoke clears and try to slip this though in the near future.   


I say the above due to this: http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/235054-supreme-court-sides-with-administration-in-rulemaking-challenge

The Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that federal agencies do not have to follow procedures for notifying the public and collecting comment when changing the interpretations of rules, effectively removing steps from the process that can take months and sometimes years to complete.

So, a "comment period" is no longer required for the ATF to change any of it's regulations. 

[AAllen]

Read the articles, this was being fast tracked meaning that the comments were only going to effect how the ban is enforced not if there was going to be a ban. Now they are going to review all the comments before making a determination.

This is not over yet, you still need to get your comments in to stop the ban. And yes to Ricks closing note, they can just unilaterally act....

[Husker_Fan]

I'm glad I was wrong on the timing. However, this means ATF will go through the notice and comment procedure to remove the exemption.


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