Author Topic: The Light Trigger Pull Issue by Massad Ayoob (Read 4751 times)

ILoveCats · « **on:** March 10, 2015, 08:25:04 PM »

Very interesting S&W Forum post by Ayoob. Food for thought when considering a defensive firearm.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/419191-facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

Randy · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2015, 12:37:32 AM »

Pretty interesting read and worth the time.

GreyGeek · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2015, 11:19:30 AM »

Very interesting indeed!

I note two things: that intelligent discourse on Internet forums is/has become nearly impossible, keeping the tube empty may be the best legal defense against "negligent discharge" accusations.

(Yes, I carry with the chamber empty.)

Mntnman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2015, 11:53:21 AM »

Quote from: GreyGeek on March 11, 2015, 11:19:30 AM

(Yes, I carry with the chamber empty.)

Careful, you are setting yourself up to look uncomfortable and skeered of your weapon, possibly making you a prime target of litigation! (wink)

abbafandr · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2015, 07:44:34 PM »

Quote from: GreyGeek on March 11, 2015, 11:19:30 AM

(Yes, I carry with the chamber empty.)

I carry with the chamber loaded. Might not have time, or ability, to rack the slide when needed. My carry guns have original triggers, not changing that, just saying.

ILoveCats · « **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2015, 09:10:51 PM »

If you click on Ayoob's name it will take you to all of his prior forum postings over the years. Whenever a debate flares up over things like whether one should use reloads or "boutique" ammo (e.g. Buffalo Bore) for your carry weapon, Ayoob jumps in with some interesting perspectives and precedent citations.

Bottom line for me: I used to think a lot of this "lawyer paranoia" was a bunch of overblown wives tales. Ayoob's writings have changed my mind.

Mntnman · « **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2015, 09:27:42 PM »

Quote from: feralcatkillr on March 11, 2015, 09:10:51 PM

Bottom line for me: I used to think a lot of this "lawyer paranoia" was a bunch of overblown wives tales. Ayoob's writings have changed my mind.

I am familiar with Ayoob. He has my respect.

However, I think if you end up in the cross hairs of some over-zealous, vermin lawyer, your choice of boots could be a point of contention. Bottom line, whatever you do, it should be because that is what you are comfortable with. Doing or not doing based on a perceived threat of litigation is probably not the best way to go about life. In all likelihood, appearing over-cautious could create the impression that you weren't ready for the serious business of carrying, to a vermin lawyer anyway.......... (No, not all lawyers are vermin, I speak only of the minute percentage that are.)

ILoveCats · « **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2015, 11:09:38 PM »

Yeah I get that. I do think that there are a lot of silly attempts at branding firearms and ammo out there and staying away from the weird stuff is a perfectly legitimate factor in one's choice. If I have a choice between a box of .38 ammo that says simply "158 grain LSWCHPGC" and another that reads "black talon zombie slayer extreme" I will go with the traditional branding.

GreyGeek · « **Reply #8 on:** March 12, 2015, 12:20:17 PM »

Quote from: Mntnman on March 11, 2015, 11:53:21 AM

Careful, you are setting yourself up to look uncomfortable and skeered of your weapon, possibly making you a prime target of litigation! (wink)

A lifetime of experience with firearms, which includes forty years shooting and hunting with a variety of firearms, being a town deputy marshal, investigating several homicides and testifying in some cases pretty well deflates that accusation.

Better than anyone else I know my own purpose for a CHP AND I know my own physical limits. I hold no illusions about fast drawing against a purp who is pointing a gun at me. My CHP is not about protecting anyone's merchandise, property or money from a thief, armed or otherwise. Sometimes, even when armed, the wiser choice is not to use it.

SemperFiGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2015, 12:46:19 PM »

Quote

...keeping the tube empty may be the best legal defense against "negligent discharge" accusations....

GG:

As we've all learned by now, such arrangement is just simply not tolerable on this Wunnerful Forum.

So....I'm gonna ask DanW to set up an Alternate Forum where an MT chamber is OK.

You and I will be the only folks thereon, but...........

I've always rocked to your Postings anyhow.

See you there.

sfg

SeanN · « **Reply #10 on:** March 12, 2015, 02:26:18 PM »

Why did a discussion about the legal issues involving a light trigger pull even mention carrying with an empty chamber?

Having the chamber empty would help you mitigate literally none of the issues brought up in the linked post by Mass Ayoob. All of the things he mentioned could still be brought against you if you have a lightened trigger.

GreyGeek · « **Reply #11 on:** March 12, 2015, 07:51:01 PM »

I haven't seen a gun fire with an empty tube. If I have to put one in the tube it will in all likelihood be fired. A lawyer who can turn a 4.5 lb trigger pull into a legal issue could dredge up issues with bullet types, barrel lengths, etc..., especially with an anti-2A jury.

Mntnman · « **Reply #12 on:** March 12, 2015, 08:13:09 PM »

I hope you don't take my post as a judgement, because it's not. I don't care what you do. I am just making light of the reality that lawyers are going after you if they want to regardless of your actions. I could make a very good case for lighter trigger pull being beneficial.

OnTheFly · « **Reply #13 on:** March 12, 2015, 09:04:26 PM »

Quote from: SeanN on March 12, 2015, 02:26:18 PM

Why did a discussion about the legal issues involving a light trigger pull even mention carrying with an empty chamber?

Having the chamber empty would help you mitigate literally none of the issues brought up in the linked post by Mass Ayoob. All of the things he mentioned could still be brought against you if you have a lightened trigger.

I'm with Sean here. I don't care how you carry, but relative to this topic (light trigger and negligent discharge) I don't see how an empty chamber is going to help you. The problem from what I read in Akoob's post is that you have drawn your firearm to use in a self defense and, due to a light trigger combined with the shooter's high level of adrenaline, fire the gun in a direction that is not intended. So you have an empty chamber, you draw the gun to defend yourself (and this is where you won't be held liable because there is no round to fire in the gun), but then you rack the slide and chamber a round. From this point forward you can do the same thing as a person who carry's with one in the chamber.

Fly

Tstephens · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2015, 03:59:37 PM »

Quote from: OnTheFly on March 12, 2015, 09:04:26 PM

I'm with Sean here. I don't care how you carry, but relative to this topic (light trigger and negligent discharge) I don't see how an empty chamber is going to help you. The problem from what I read in Akoob's post is that you have drawn your firearm to use in a self defense and, due to a light trigger combined with the shooter's high level of adrenaline, fire the gun in a direction that is not intended. So you have an empty chamber, you draw the gun to defend yourself (and this is where you won't be held liable because there is no round to fire in the gun), but then you rack the slide and chamber a round. From this point forward you can do the same thing as a person who carry's with one in the chamber.

Fly

I agree. I would rather have a heavier trigger and have one in chamber than try to carry unloaded and rack one in. That's precious time in my mind.

GreyGeek · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2015, 09:07:19 PM »

Quote from: OnTheFly on March 12, 2015, 09:04:26 PM

I'm with Sean here. I don't care how you carry, but relative to this topic (light trigger and negligent discharge) I don't see how an empty chamber is going to help you. The problem from what I read in Akoob's post is that you have drawn your firearm to use in a self defense and, due to a light trigger combined with the shooter's high level of adrenaline, fire the gun in a direction that is not intended. So you have an empty chamber, you draw the gun to defend yourself (and this is where you won't be held liable because there is no round to fire in the gun), but then you rack the slide and chamber a round. From this point forward you can do the same thing as a person who carry's with one in the chamber.

Fly

When you pull your gun do you intend to shoot, or is it "just in case"?
If rack my slide I will shoot. There won't be a "negligent discharge".

OnTheFly · « **Reply #16 on:** March 14, 2015, 01:12:33 AM »

Quote from: Tstephens on March 13, 2015, 03:59:37 PM

I agree. I would rather have a heavier trigger and have one in chamber than try to carry unloaded and rack one in. That's precious time in my mind.

I'm not questioning how they want to carry. This is COMPLETELY a personal choice. My contention is that when a round IS chambered, you are no better or worse off than those that carry with one in the chamber. You are in the EXACT same position.

Quote from: GreyGeek on March 13, 2015, 09:07:19 PM

When you pull your gun do you intend to shoot, or is it "just in case"?
If rack my slide I will shoot. There won't be a "negligent discharge".

If I pull my gun it will because I'm confident I need to use it. You have eliminated the possibility of a ND during the draw, but once you chamber the round you are equally as likely (not that I'm saying this is a high likelihood) of having an ND due to high stress combined with a sense of urgency. In the context of this discussion regarding a light trigger, you start to bear your gun on the BG and adrenaline has you squeezing the gun tightly without you even knowing it. Before the gun is on target, your tight grip causes a ND in a direction you never intended. How does not carrying a round in the chamber stop this from happening?

Maybe the problem is in the definition of a ND. ND's don't mean that the gun goes off when you have absolutely no intent of firing it. It means that you NEGLIGENTLY fired the weapon. That could be when you never intended to fire it, or when you intended to fire it, but not in the direction it was fired. Say a person was at the range to practice. They pull out the gun with the intent of firing it, load it, and as they do their casting throw of the pistol (as MANY people do), then gun goes off. A round travels outside the range. Are they not liable for that bullet? Did they not negligently discharge the firearm?

If you will be under stress and have a sense of urgency during a situation where you need to use your firearm, what can you expect from your motor skills? Will everything from your brain to your fingers to your feet work as well as in a non-stressful situation? If someone is within a distance to make you feel threatened enough to draw your gun, can they not close the remaining distance rapidly? Now add the fact that you don't have a round chambered and your sense of urgency goes to an 11 on the Spinal Tap Scale. How are your fine motor skills now? Do you think you are not going to rush a shot, which means the gun is not pointed at what you intend to shoot, possibly at an innocent bystander?

Again, carry how you like, but making claims that not having one in the chamber will prevent you from having an ND is pretty lofty thinking IMHO.

Fly

GreyGeek · « **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2015, 12:28:19 PM »

It looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree. Regardless of any possible hypotheticals, definitions, interpretations or evil lawyers we all will do what we are comfortable with based on our personal experiences and preferences.

Having a LEO quick draw a gun and point it at me while feigning surprise made me wish his tube was empty.

depserv · « **Reply #18 on:** March 16, 2015, 09:47:40 AM »

I've seen catalogues that have all kinds of ways to customize and supposedly improve Glocks, including making the trigger pull lighter. I always thought any of that was a bad idea, because presumably the engineers who designed the Glock know more than I do about how to make a good pistol. The lighter trigger pull I assumed might result in misfires. I had also considered what it might look like in court if someone had customized the pistol he used to defend himself; I would not want to have used a pistol with a light trigger and devil's head and lightening bolt decals on it. I hadn't thought about this aspect of a light trigger pull but it makes sense. So this reinforces the idea that the gun you carry should be left as it came from the factory.

I'm on the side of carrying a round in the chamber; that's what the instructor told us to do when I took my concealed carry class, and from what I've read and heard, sometimes a person finds himself suddenly forced into a fight and one hand might be tied up, which makes the pistol useless if the chamber is empty.

Greybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** March 16, 2015, 10:22:45 AM »

"Better that a man keep his mouth shut and the world wonder if he is a fool, than he open his mouth and the world know for sure", or words to that effect. That having been said, I worked as a Security Officer on a Federal contract under the Federal Protective Service for 5 1/2 years protecting Federal buildings and GSA leased spaces like HUD, Social Security offices, FBI, INS and such. We carried S&W revolvers at that time, now they carry semi-autos. There were no empty chambers in the revolvers, and I highly doubt that there are any in the semi-autos either. Obviously those weapons were unmodified. I use that as my standard when carrying my EDC weapon.. Now you know how big a fool I am /rant!