Omaha and Pepper spray and Bars

[depserv]

In his classic book on hand to hand combat, Get Tough!, W.E. Fairbairn says that a box of matches, of the type commonly carried at the time by nicotine addicts, can be crushed in a fist and it will give your fist enough hardness that a blow from it can be lethal.  I think the author might have overestimated the amount of power such a small amount of mass can add to a fist, and there are probably better things to do with matches in the kinds of situations he's writing about.  But there is some truth in what he says, because even an empty hand can be an effective weapon, and the more weight you add to it the more powerful a blow with it can be.  More important though is the feeling of greater confidence something in your hand gives you, because that can be a big factor.

Bars contain weapons that are probably as effective as some of the things you might carry, and you won't get in trouble for having been carrying something designed to be a weapon.  Just look around.

[Sonicblaze]

I'm not worried about a bar brawl, or faking a limp and using a cane, or skirting the already thin line of what's acceptable concealing a knife. Just was trying to find what the laws were around OC spray and a BAC =) More just want something easily accessible for the walk to the car and while driving home.

[Mali]

I'm not worried about a bar brawl, or faking a limp and using a cane, or skirting the already thin line of what's acceptable concealing a knife. Just was trying to find what the laws were around OC spray and a BAC =) More just want something easily accessible for the walk to the car and while driving home.

Totally understand you SB. I have found it to be the way of this forum that you ask a question and get the answer as well as a discussion that leads from your question into other topics. 

[Kendahl]

the author might have overestimated the amount of power such a small amount of mass can add to a fist

I don't think it's mass that Fairbairn wanted. Rather, something around which to wrap his hand so that his fist would not collapse on impact.

[depserv]

I don't think it's mass that Fairbairn wanted. Rather, something around which to wrap his hand so that his fist would not collapse on impact.

Who knows; I can't read his mind.  He did say hardness and not mass if I remember right, though it's been years since I read the book.  But it's mass that increases the power of a blow with a fist no matter what his meaning was, and the matches don't have much of it. 

[JTH]

Who knows; I can't read his mind.  He did say hardness and not mass if I remember right, though it's been years since I read the book.  But it's mass that increases the power of a blow with a fist no matter what his meaning was, and the matches don't have much of it. 

Mass increases the power of a blow, no doubt.  However, it is also true that in the first moments of impact, your hand is effectively a small bag of reinforced water, and it does give quite a bit, which softens the impact.  Having even a small tube of plastic (pvc, for a hypothetical example) in your hand actually makes a large difference in the amount of impulse force transferred during a punch.

Here's a video of someone breaking a concrete brick with their hand (actually, they are cheating by also using their forearm) and you can see the deformation of the hand as it happens. 



Here's a better one---take a look at 0:38, where the ripple from the hand deformation goes all the way up the arm.

Now, I wouldn't suggest holding something to make a harder striking surface when hitting brick because that "give" in the hand protects it.  However, if you are striking a soft surface (like a person), having a harder striking surface (reinforced hand) will make a large difference in the impulse force.



This one, too.  Makes me never want to break bricks again. 



Anyway---increasing mass makes a big difference.  Reinforcing the hand can make a big difference also.

A couple of posts back, depserv also said:

So how do you stop that guy with a knife?  Maybe cut him and he'll cry and go home?  People get cut up pretty bad sometimes and still keep fighting.  And just being threatened with a knife is no guarantee the guy will leave you alone; in fact if I'm ever unlucky enough to have to use a knife to defend myself the guy will feel it before he sees it.

I completely agree.  While I, like most people, carry a pocket knife that I use as a tool all the time, in a pinch it could work as a self-defense weapon.  That being said, most knives tend to be really bad as self-defense weapons.

Kill someone?  Sure, they are good at that.

Stop someone from killing you?  Not so much.

Remember:  a knife is a lethal-force-level weapon.  If you pull one, you get effectively the same use of force rules as you do with a firearm.  So, you aren't reacting at any lower level of force than if you pull a gun.

Knives also suck at defense--in other words, while it is possible to use a knife to block/divert/stop an attack, it isn't easy.  Matter of fact, most pocket-sized knives take a lot more skill to use to stop an attack than it does to do it empty-handed.

Offensive techniques with a knife are basically either stabs or slashes.  Stabs (to the torso and such) tend to kill people really well, but they don't notice.  Many people have been stabbed with deep, penetrating wounds that eventually killed them, but it didn't make any difference at the time. 

We aren't trying to kill them, we are trying to stop them from killing us RIGHT NOW.  So we need to stop them RIGHT NOW. 

Slashes tend to be bloody, noticeable, and may cause a psychological stop, but they rarely cause a physiological stop.  (In other words, a slash may make someone decide they've had enough, but it won't force them to stop attacking because they cannot physically do so.)  And sometimes slashes don't even get noticed by the attacker either if they are enraged, drunk, or on drugs.

So:  You might kill someone with a knife, but it really hard to STOP someone by using a knife, unless you damage them SO MUCH that they cannot continue to attack.  If you are slashing, that's a lot of slashes.

Cops show up, guy on the floor with 15 slash wounds, blood everywhere, you are standing there knife in hand..."He attacked me, officer, honest!"

....you may be telling the truth, but it is going to be a hard sell.

I carry a pocket tool daily, and as a last-ditch defensive tool, it's there.  But....I really wouldn't suggest it for anyone's primary self-defense tool.  As someone has already said, there are normally lots of things lying around bars and such that make perfectly good tools that will work better.

Here's the real way to bar fight:



(Not serious.  And seriously, don't get in bar fights.  99.9999% of them are between stupid drunk people whose friends should have stuffed them into a car and taken them home long ago.)

Getting back to the OP:  No, there aren't any laws regarding OC in bars. 

[Sonicblaze]

Mass increases the power of a blow, no doubt.  However, it is also true that in the first moments of impact, your hand is effectively a small bag of reinforced water, and it does give quite a bit, which softens the impact.  Having even a small tube of plastic (pvc, for a hypothetical example) in your hand actually makes a large difference in the amount of impulse force transferred during a punch.

Here's a video of someone breaking a concrete brick with their hand (actually, they are cheating by also using their forearm) and you can see the deformation of the hand as it happens. 



Here's a better one---take a look at 0:38, where the ripple from the hand deformation goes all the way up the arm.

Now, I wouldn't suggest holding something to make a harder striking surface when hitting brick because that "give" in the hand protects it.  However, if you are striking a soft surface (like a person), having a harder striking surface (reinforced hand) will make a large difference in the impulse force.



This one, too.  Makes me never want to break bricks again. 



Anyway---increasing mass makes a big difference.  Reinforcing the hand can make a big difference also.

A couple of posts back, depserv also said:
I completely agree.  While I, like most people, carry a pocket knife that I use as a tool all the time, in a pinch it could work as a self-defense weapon.  That being said, most knives tend to be really bad as self-defense weapons.

Kill someone?  Sure, they are good at that.

Stop someone from killing you?  Not so much.

Remember:  a knife is a lethal-force-level weapon.  If you pull one, you get effectively the same use of force rules as you do with a firearm.  So, you aren't reacting at any lower level of force than if you pull a gun.

Knives also suck at defense--in other words, while it is possible to use a knife to block/divert/stop an attack, it isn't easy.  Matter of fact, most pocket-sized knives take a lot more skill to use to stop an attack than it does to do it empty-handed.

Offensive techniques with a knife are basically either stabs or slashes.  Stabs (to the torso and such) tend to kill people really well, but they don't notice.  Many people have been stabbed with deep, penetrating wounds that eventually killed them, but it didn't make any difference at the time. 

We aren't trying to kill them, we are trying to stop them from killing us RIGHT NOW.  So we need to stop them RIGHT NOW. 

Slashes tend to be bloody, noticeable, and may cause a psychological stop, but they rarely cause a physiological stop.  (In other words, a slash may make someone decide they've had enough, but it won't force them to stop attacking because they cannot physically do so.)  And sometimes slashes don't even get noticed by the attacker either if they are enraged, drunk, or on drugs.

So:  You might kill someone with a knife, but it really hard to STOP someone by using a knife, unless you damage them SO MUCH that they cannot continue to attack.  If you are slashing, that's a lot of slashes.

Cops show up, guy on the floor with 15 slash wounds, blood everywhere, you are standing there knife in hand..."He attacked me, officer, honest!"

....you may be telling the truth, but it is going to be a hard sell.

I carry a pocket tool daily, and as a last-ditch defensive tool, it's there.  But....I really wouldn't suggest it for anyone's primary self-defense tool.  As someone has already said, there are normally lots of things lying around bars and such that make perfectly good tools that will work better.

Here's the real way to bar fight:



(Not serious.  And seriously, don't get in bar fights.  99.9999% of them are between stupid drunk people whose friends should have stuffed them into a car and taken them home long ago.)

Getting back to the OP:  No, there aren't any laws regarding OC in bars. 

Oh my god that bouncer video was amazing. Every time he yelled "boom kick in the groin" it just made me laugh. Sure, good move, but his entuasiam about that groin kick was amazing.

[JTH]

Oh my god that bouncer video was amazing. Every time he yelled "boom kick in the groin" it just made me laugh. Sure, good move, but his entuasiam about that groin kick was amazing.

Bas Rutten is hilarious---he's quite a character.  He is also an extremely skilled fighter.  If you get bored, look up some of his knockout highlight videos.  Amazing amount of power in his strikes, and some SERIOUSLY good fundamental movement.

That video was an edited clip (obviously) from a fighting/self-defense video he made awhile ago.  The original video itself has some really good stuff in it, along with a LOT of hilarious comments.  (Yeah, some of the stuff isn't applicable to self-defense, but it is still a good video.)

[Dtrain323i]

Not sure about pepper spray, but it will probably be considered lethal force if you hit someone over the head with a bar.

Three nazis walk into a BAR