The Thinking that made the Oregon shooting worse

[GreyGeek]

http://www.mainstreamonline.org/articles/41/02/Armed%20Guard.php

And, since articles like these tend to disappear after the fact, I copy it in its entirety below.  The ignorance and self-delusion is palpable, and it cost 10 people their lives and many more personal injury.    The administration's decision will open it up to lawsuits for failing to provide protection to students.  Lawsuits they deserve, IMO.

President Joe Olson took time out of his busy schedule to meet with the UCC community to get their opinions about the idea of having an armed security guard on campus.

A very timely discussion of having an armed security is moving through campus right now. With the accidental shooting in Myrtle Creek hitting very close the home, the discussion is more important than ever before. Should UCC have an armed security guard?

President Joe Olson reached out to a group of students who discussed their thoughts over lunch. College Council has also been discussing the issue. Olson held two open forums Friday, Oct. 31 to allow folks to share their opinions directly with him. Olson reported in a campus wide email the issue is very much split 50-50.

This split is a national trend on the gun control debate. On a debate.org survey, 55 percent are in favor of guns in public school while 45 percent oppose. Debate.org is a nonprofit organization that allows people to debate hot topics covered behind their computers with people from across the nation.

Human Recourses [sic] recently opened the application process for a Chief of Security as a long term guard, Danny McCall, will be retiring in December. Since Jess Miller has taken over as Director of Facilities and Security this year, I see an opportunity for change looming on the horizon.

In the discussion I have been exposed to, the original idea is to arm one security guard, with an extensive law enforcement background. In my opinion, that scenario will do more harm than good because it creates a very powerful position for one guard, while other guards lack the same protection should they be presented with the same situation.

It is a very drastic change to go from having no weapon to carrying a loaded gun, a change that one can argue is unnecessary. We have a very large campus; were there to be an active shooter at the Technology Building, it would take at least two to three minutes for the armed security guard to race up the hill to the scene from almost any point on campus. In this highly unlikely scenario, that would allow time for the perpetrator to race into the woods or head off down College Road.

On the other hand, in my time at UCC, I have been aware of several instances within 15 minutes of campus where there was a casualty due to gun violence. Just last year, there was a shooting near the Del Ray Cafe.

One student who spoke with me following one of the discussions said she suggested the idea of tasers, or stun guns for all of the guards, as opposed to one gun for one guard. According to Medical News Today, tasers can cause cardiac arrest in those with pre-existing medical conditions. Extremely elevated heart rates caused by fight or flight responses and/or intoxication can also increase chances of cardiac arrest. The author suggested that tasers “should be used judiciously, and an unconscious individual should be monitored closely and resuscitated, if necessary.”

I firmly believe that a gun does not kill someone; the person who pulls the trigger does. With a taser, the guards will not shoot to intentionally kill; they will shoot to gain control in a hostile, desperate situation.

Guns are very dangerous, even with users who have years of experience and training; misfires happen or guns end up in the wrong hands. These risks are very real and are heavy on the hearts of our community right now.

[depserv]

I think those who disarm students (or employees, customers, etc.) ought to be sued when they fail to protect those they disarm.  I would even consider what they do criminal negligence, since bearing arms is a right, not a privilege, and give them jail terms.

The author of the letter is as good an example as I've seen of an educated idiot.  It's just too bad that such an idiot has so much power to be an accessory to so much evil.

[depserv]

Here's a little more on the subject:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/01/umpqua-community-college-uses-unarmed-security-guards/

[BranchMillardian]

Hopefully this didn't get posted elsewhere. To follow in the spirit of this thread, I stumbled upon this: http://6abc.com/education/villanova-students-protest-armed-campus-police-/1047685/

Words just escape me.

It's many years away, but I am seriously considering trying to talk my kids into abandoning any notion of attending college. I don't want to send in intelligent, polite teens and have them spit out rude, (perhaps even obscene and profane) ne'er-do-wells, who can't even put in a full day in the labor force and are just dead weight on society. Perhaps a trade...or three for each kid is the way to go?

Who here would hire a journeyman plumber/electrician, slash Cisco CCNA in about 15-20 years?

[GreyGeek]

Perhaps a trade...or three for each kid is the way to go?

The are no STEM jobs available in the USA for Americans.  Those jobs are given to H-1B's specifically because they are cheap labor, almost indentured servants.

I hold three degrees and five certifications.  However, if I had it to do all over again in today's situation I'd get a degree in Vetinary, OR I'd attend a trade school and learn several trades: electrician, plumbing, welding, power generation and similar skills.  I wouldn't even bother to get degrees or certifications because in the chaos that lies ahead for this country those who know and can do will be more useful than those who cannot.  I cannot think of anything more worthless than degrees in psychology, history, poky sci, humanities, education or social services, etc.  The percentage of HS & college grads who cannot read, write or do math at the level of  a 1950 Eight grader is  appalling. Your kids are probably still in grade school.  Teach them how to use hand tools.  Teach them good math before they are taught "new" math. And Trig & geometry.  Make sure that can read and write well. Don't depend on the public schools to do that.  And be sure they memorize the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, and a true history of our country's founding.  In their future they may have to re-create our Republic.   Sad but true: most of the high school and college graduates of the last 30 graduating classes are ill prepared to function without government aid.  Aid they've been forced to become dependent on.

I probably won't live to see that dismal future but I fear for my grandchildren.

[JTH]

The are no STEM jobs available in the USA for Americans.  Those jobs are given to H-1B's specifically because they are cheap labor, almost indentured servants.

That's flatly untrue.

I'm all for the skills and knowledge the rest of your post suggests be taught to children, I'll note.

Sad but true: most of the high school and college graduates of the last 30 graduating classes are ill prepared to function without government aid.

Any cite to back up this extraordinary statement?

[Kendahl]

I am seriously considering trying to talk my kids into abandoning any notion of attending college.

You don't have to go that far. Just make sure they realize that, for such a big investment of time, effort and money, they need to major in a field with good employment prospects. A degree in fuzzy studies is ok if you are independently wealthy but not if you will have to earn a living after college.

[GreyGeek]

That's flatly untrue.

I'm all for the skills and knowledge the rest of your post suggests be taught to children, I'll note.

Any cite to back up this extraordinary statement?

For the first:
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-yes-and-yes.htm

For the second:
Experience with temp workers who have no work ethics and cannot read or follow simple instructions or do simple math

[SemperFiGuy]

Who here would hire a journeyman plumber/electrician, slash Cisco CCNA in about 15-20 years?

Given the nature of winters and summers in Omaha, don't forget HVAC technicians.

Plus really good computer tekkies.   We wouldn't trade our engineering college computer tekkie for any three university deans, randomly chosen.   Or a dozen department chairpersons, so-called in U-speak.

And my six daughters will patronize every nail polisher, hairdresser, haut couteur person they can find.   And will do it in a happily chattering group.

sfg

[JTH]

For the first:
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-yes-and-yes.htm

Your original statement was:
"The are no STEM jobs available in the USA for Americans.  Those jobs are given to H-1B's specifically because they are cheap labor, almost indentured servants. "

There is absolutely nothing in the link you sent that supports that statement.  Matter of fact, it completely refutes your statement as it specifically lists a number of areas in which there is a shortage of STEM workers.  And nowhere does it say anything about "H-1Bs" or anything remotely similar other than it mentions that government/defense jobs aren't available for foreign nationals which contributes to an even high shortage of STEM-qualified workers.

So:  No.  Your statement is flatly untrue.

For the second:
Experience with temp workers who have no work ethics and cannot read or follow simple instructions or do simple math

Your original statement was:
"Sad but true: most of the high school and college graduates of the last 30 graduating classes are ill prepared to function without government aid. "

Your support for a generalized statement about over 50% of high school and college graduates from the last 30 years is...

...based on your personal experience with some temp workers.

Right.  Okay.

In just the last eight years, over 24 million high school students have graduated in the U.S.  I'm thinking your personal experience probably isn't going to be very representative of 12 million of them, not to mention not being representative of all the college graduates from that time frame.

Much less 30 years of such.

So again:  No.

[JTH]

You don't have to go that far. Just make sure they realize that, for such a big investment of time, effort and money, they need to major in a field with good employment prospects. A degree in fuzzy studies is ok if you are independently wealthy but not if you will have to earn a living after college.

Strongly agree.

[GreyGeek]

Your original statement was:
"The are no STEM jobs available in the USA for Americans.  Those jobs are given to H-1B's specifically because they are cheap labor, almost indentured servants. "

There is absolutely nothing in the link you sent that supports that statement.  Matter of fact, it completely refutes your statement as it specifically lists a number of areas in which there is a shortage of STEM workers.  And nowhere does it say anything about "H-1Bs" or anything remotely similar other than it mentions that government/defense jobs aren't available for foreign nationals which contributes to an even high shortage of STEM-qualified workers.

So:  No.  Your statement is flatly untrue.

Your original statement was:
"Sad but true: most of the high school and college graduates of the last 30 graduating classes are ill prepared to function without government aid. "

Your support for a generalized statement about over 50% of high school and college graduates from the last 30 years is...

...based on your personal experience with some temp workers.

Right.  Okay.

In just the last eight years, over 24 million high school students have graduated in the U.S.  I'm thinking your personal experience probably isn't going to be very representative of 12 million of them, not to mention not being representative of all the college graduates from that time frame.

Much less 30 years of such.

So again:  No.

My personal experience was with temp workers hired at the dept of rev where I worked.   We hired about 150+ per year in the hopes of getting 70 who would work for the entire season.   Most were recent HS grads.  More than half could not read or write at an eight grade level and required person verbal instructions and simple step procedures printed on paper in minimal English in order to do their job.  Many would fail to appear for their second day of work and never showed up again.   Many would be late or not show up for work on Mondays because they partied too hard over the weekend.   Of the 70 or so who stuck around probably a dozen would be worth hiring full time.  10% of the total number who applied for work.   So yes, it is my "personal" experience but I have little doubt that it is unique.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[JTH]

My personal experience was with temp workers hired at the dept of rev where I worked.   

Just an observation:  If they are going for temp work out of high school, then they probably aren't the folks going on from high school to the military, trade school, an apprenticeship, or college.

So---what you experienced doesn't surprise me.  Overall, that subset of high school students will be significantly lower-achieving than the average high school student.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Oh, indeed.  This doesn't change the fact that there was no support for this statement, presented by you as a fact:

"The are no STEM jobs available in the USA for Americans.  Those jobs are given to H-1B's specifically because they are cheap labor, almost indentured servants. "

In a similar fashion, there is a significant difference between this statement (presented by you as a fact):

"Sad but true: most of the high school and college graduates of the last 30 graduating classes are ill prepared to function without government aid."

and this one:

"Sad but true, I believe that most of the high school and college graduates of the last 30 graduating classes are ill prepared to function without government aid."

One of those is an opinion, and phrased as such.  The other was presented as a statement of fact---which it isn't.

Nothing wrong with opinions, and interesting opinions spark interesting discussions.  But taking opinions and phrasing them as statements of fact isn't really useful to discussion.

[Mali]

As someone who works in the STEM field I can guarantee that there are plenty of jobs out there.  This is a career field that is sometimes hard to get into because the pay doesn't start out high and you really do have to work your way up with experience, but we are a consulting firm that also does placement and our recruiting team is always busy looking for people to fill internal and client needs.

There is a segment of the population that feels that the rest of us owe them everything and bring that attitude to the workplace, but I have seen that a lot of them start to change their tune after a few years in the workforce in responsible jobs. Not all, but a lot of them.

[RLMoeller]

I work in IT and have seen many interns at my day job (in Omaha) that are very sharp.  They are college interns and many are offered full-time employment after graduation.   I am not sure I would agree with the H1B assertion, as it appears those folks living here under a work visa make good money.  We also outsource (offshore) a lot of development positions. Those offshore are making very little in comparison. Not the same as those with H1B's.


I just read an op-ed in LJS regarding school choice.  It had some interesting figures regarding LPS ACT scores and college readiness compared to state and national averages.  I didn't check to verify the accuracy so I don't know those numbers to be true.  If that is accurate I can see how that could affect the experiences of someone that works for the state in Lincoln.

[ILoveCats]

Y'all can keep your kids out of college if you want.  Somebody has to fix my iPhone when it breaks.     But the last thing America needs is "less education" and "less intellectual curiosity".   No, the sky is not falling.  No, we are not about to be replaced by robot overlords.  No, this is not the worst generation of humans ever seen on the planet.  Yes, people with an education will still have more opportunities than people without education.  No, the weirdo hippie professors populating the social sciences hallways are not a new phenomenon.  Yes, your child can get an education without being "dumbed down" by the anthropologists and sociologists who can't get a job outside of academia.

As much as I self-deprecatingly joke about the weird minors and classes we had to take as electives at UNL on top of all the more substantive major studies, I got a really, really good education at our state university.  While you rely on the more concrete studies early on in a career, the well rounded person factor of studying art, literature, history, philosophy and foreign languages helps you later in your career as you lead larger projects and larger groups of people.  And I'd put my UNL education against a lot of the Ivy League grads I've worked alongside.  (Not "all" but a lot.)  At a state college you just need to be driven and motivated to be toward the top of your class, and intellectually curious.  Nobody's going to care if you drop out your freshman year and many thousands do just that.

The thing that determines whether a kid does well in and after college (or whether he becomes a successful entrepreneur right out of high school, or does well in a vocational training program) is whether he was well raised by his parents.  If your kid's playing video games more than he's playing outdoors, he's not going to do as well.  If your kid's watching TV more than he's reading, he's not going to do as well.

 

[GreyGeek]

Somebody has to fix my iPhone when it breaks. 

Most consumer electronics these days are non-fixable throwaways.  For things that can be fixed, like battery replacement on iPhones, the people that do that are citizens of China.

[JTH]

Most consumer electronics these days are non-fixable throwaways.  For things that can be fixed, like battery replacement on iPhones, the people that do that are citizens of China.

Really?  We send our phones to China to have their batteries replaced?

Or all people who work in Apple stores (who do battery replacement here in the U.S.) all are Chinese citizens who came here?

Huh.  Who knew.

[GreyGeek]

Really?  We send our phones to China to have their batteries replaced?

Or all people who work in Apple stores (who do battery replacement here in the U.S.) all are Chinese citizens who came here?

Huh.  Who knew.

You must enjoy ragging on people.    If you send or take your iPhone 6+ with a dead or defective battery and $80 off to an Apple Service center they will transfer your data over to a refurbished iPhone 6+ and send or give that one back to you.  They send your device to China where technicians there, at slave labor wages, replace the battery and send it back to US Apple service centers as refurbished devices.  Do you really think Apple would pay for expensive American labor to replace batteries?

Of course, if you are technically minded you can replace the battery yourself.   They cost about $20:
http://www.directfix.com/product/IP-2867.html?gclid=CKe_84bT_MgCFYRFaQod01cEOA
but you'll need a set of tools to do the job.  Those will cost you about $25.  Total: $50 bucks and your time. The howto is here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyleather/2014/12/28/how-to-replace-the-iphone-6s-battery/
if your iPhone is out of warranty it might be worth a try.   You save $30 if your time isn't worth anything, but the risks are a lot higher because the work of replacing it is delicate.
Now get off my back.

[JTH]

You must enjoy ragging on people.    If you send or take your iPhone 6+ with a dead or defective battery and $80 off to an Apple Service center they will transfer your data over to a refurbished iPhone 6+ and send or give that one back to you.  They send your device to China where technicians there, at slave labor wages, replace the battery and send it back to US Apple service centers as refurbished devices.  Do you really think Apple would pay for expensive American labor to replace batteries?

I'm just curious how you know that instead of taking 5 minutes to change a battery in-store, Apple instead takes the phone, ships it to China, has THEM take 5 minutes to change the battery, then ships it back to America. 

For all iPhones, since you originally said:  "For things that can be fixed, like battery replacement on iPhones, the people that do that are citizens of China."

You have a tendency to make sweeping statements that you can't support, so I'm curious how you know that all iPhones are sent to China for battery replacement.

Now get off my back.

Public forum, public comments, and large, sweeping statements phrased as facts.  If you can't back them up or annoyed by people asking how you got your facts, maybe you should phrase things as opinions.