Author Topic: Not exactly an NFA discussion, but... (Read 7417 times)

Dan W · « **on:** February 20, 2016, 10:50:18 AM »

I would like to pick the brains of some of our NFA owners in regards to SBR's vs AR15 pistols.

I am thinking about a new build that would be a hybrid of sorts, specifically an AR15 5.56 pistol, 12.5" barrel. My idea is to build the pistol incorporating a Law Tactical folding stock, and shockwave blade stabilizer by KAK, which would get overall length over 26" and allow for use of vertical foregrip.

The use of the VFG is allowed on a AR pistol if OAL is 26" or longer, as the legal designation (as I understand it) becomes what is know as a non NFA "firearm".

My goals...

Compact package
Reduced muzzle blast
Reduced noise compared to shorter barrel
Future suppressor host
avoid NFA stamp and tax

So, I ask you experienced NFOA SBR and AR pistol users to school me. Is this build a viable project or should I stick with a pinned and welded 14.5" upper and forgo the suppressor as I am loathe to pay any SBR tax and am not really wanting to spend what it takes to do both an SBR and a suppressor

A suppressor would be more acceptable to me because I could use it on multiple rifles

TIA

PC13 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2016, 01:35:56 PM »

If you're only wanting to spend one tax fee, get a suppressor, for the reason you mentioned (multiple weapon use).

Any pistol you shoulder (goofy brace or not) now becomes an SBR. Not being able to shoulder a rifle makes it pretty useless in my opinion, especially when you hang a pound of suppressor off the end of it. I have several SBR and 14.5" and 16" guns. Recoil becomes sharper the shorter/lighter you go, so not having the legal option to shoulder a pistol makes them a novelty, in my opinion.

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RobertH · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2016, 03:49:43 PM »

i can't stand AR pistols. i've held them, but they were never comfortable to me. and now you can't shoulder them because of people writing the ATF wanting definitions or explanations. "Don't shoulder me, bro!" also a firearm under 26" is a pistol and vertical fore grip on that pistol turns it to an AOW, which many people already know.

if you wanted to spend only 1 tax, buy a suppressor. SilencerHQ can fix you up nicely. i suggest a 308 can. it can be used on a ton of calibers. i've never shot in a house before, but i've shot in several indoor ranges and using a suppressor is really nice to have in a tight, concussive area. even shooting a .223 indoors would really wreck your hearing. but you are adding 6 or 7 inches on to your barrel, which can be awkward.

also, with 41F going into effect, you'll have to get photos/fingerprints and CLEO notification no matter if you buy as a Trust, LLC or individual. those new rules go into effect in July 13th. So, get a trust and do it soon!

on final thought.... what if you use your suppressed gun for actual self defense. pray that you don't get characterized as a wannabe mobster assassin. because we all know suppressors are for mobsters and Navy Seals.

Dan W · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2016, 05:52:44 PM »

Quote from: RobertH on February 20, 2016, 03:49:43 PM

i can't stand AR pistols.

Seems like people either love em or hate em, but I have not ever been around when one was being fired, so I have no frame of reference

Dan W · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2016, 06:03:26 PM »

Quote from: PC13 on February 20, 2016, 01:35:56 PM

I have several SBR and 14.5" and 16" guns

Which length barrel do you find most useful? All my rifles are 16-18"

ps I shot that BCM pencil barrel again today sighting in a new Meprolight TruDot RDS and It brings a smile to my face every time

shooter · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2016, 09:08:52 PM »

with just one stamp. couldn't you shorten the barrel to 8 inches, and pin and weld a 8 inch suppressor to it. making it part of the barrel for the 16 inches? Or what ever your measurements are to come out 16 inch or more?

RobertH · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2016, 10:06:03 PM »

Quote from: shooter on February 20, 2016, 09:08:52 PM

with just one stamp. couldn't you shorten the barrel to 8 inches, and pin and weld a 8 inch suppressor to it. making it part of the barrel for the 16 inches? Or what ever your measurements are to come out 16 inch or more?

yes, but you couldn't move the can to other hosts.

PC13 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2016, 10:50:58 PM »

Quote from: Dan W on February 20, 2016, 06:03:26 PM

Which length barrel do you find most useful? All my rifles are 16-18"

ps I shot that BCM pencil barrel again today sighting in a new Meprolight TruDot RDS and It brings a smile to my face every time

For competition I shoot and prefer a 16" mid length gas system. For HD I have a suppressed 11.5" carbine gas I am very fond of and it's generally my "go to" shooter when going out for range time with my buddies or my wife/kids.

My general thoughts on the subject (and these are my own observations and opinions, not scientific facts) are that the mid length systems on a 16" gun, like the one I sold you, are more pleasant/mild in recoil and muzzle blast, whereas the SBRs are a bit more violent in both respects. A suppressor will tame that, of course, but expect your SBR or pistol to have a fair amount more muzzle blast and report. That being said, for me, the shorter, lighter nature of the SBRs makes them desirable and fun to play/train with.

If I was only going to own one rifle/carbine, it would be a mid gas 16". For variety and tailoring multiple guns to specific purposes, I enjoy the shorties and I'm glad i went through the process to get them. If I was starting today from scratch, I would either dive in head first and blow a couple years gun money on a trust and a couple registered lowers and a can or two before Bam Bam's edicts take effect, OR...........say screw it and roll with the non-NFA stuff. IF I was going that route and light and short were my goals, I would build the lightest possible 14.5" I could and forget the pistol idea. As stated by another member, prior to the ATF ruling that a brace COULD NOT be shouldered, the pistols were a viable alternative. NOW, I can't imagine a useful purpose for them if you abide by the law and do not shoulder them. If you have any specific questions, you have my email or I'll answer most things here. If you're ever in my neck of the woods, I'd be happy to let you handle/shoot anything I have to help you with your decisions. Sometimes hands on trigger time is helpful. I had little interest in suppressors until shooting other people's suppressed rifles, etc.

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Dan W · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2016, 10:16:53 AM »

Correct me of I am wrong.

If I were to build this pistol as described in the OP, could I not at a later date submit a form to obtain an SBR stamp, then add a stock after the tax stamp is issued?

Could I not do the same with a 14.5" pistol?

I know I am pushing the limits here, but for the sake of discussion only.

PC13 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2016, 11:54:07 AM »

Yes, technically you can do that. You would have to replace the pistol buffer tube/system with a carbine setup at that time in order to place a stock on it.

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bkoenig · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2016, 05:01:57 PM »

Just my .02 :
Once you go SBR, you'll wonder why you never had one before. My 11.5" is my all around go-to rifle. It's so incredibly handy, even suppressed. And with a 1-6.5 scope I've shot it out to 400 yards with acceptable accuracy.

I've actually never used a suppressor on a 16" upper, but it seems like it would be a tad unwieldy.

Hardwood83 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2016, 01:24:32 PM »

I'm with BK on this, shorter is better. SBR's & bullpups for the win!

The only 'full-size' guns I utilize a suppressor on now days are when hunting (18" barrel 6.8spc AR or 16".308 Ruger Scout bolt action).

Also, Dan what you described isn't pushing any limits, it's following the letter of the (idiotic) law. Lots of people (including me) have built an AR pistol to use until a tax stamp arrives. Perfectly legitimate.

Dan W · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2016, 07:36:20 PM »

Quote from: Hardwood83 on February 23, 2016, 01:24:32 PM

I'm with BK on this, shorter is better.

No concerns over lost velocity and terminal ballistics? IMHO 10.5" is the bare minimum for 5.56.

Maybe I am misreading your intent

PC13 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2016, 10:17:41 PM »

There are ballistics handicaps involved, but not noticeable at all inside reasonable distances. I've shot my 10.5 and 11.5 out to 300 yards, but don't really consider them to be well suited for long range target shooting. That's not really the point of them. If you're shooting prairie dogs at 600 yards, sure, there's some lost performance. That's not to say they can't do it, just that they don't excel in that role. Where they excel is HD type close quarters defensive uses. They REALLY excel indoors, in confined spaces. I agree 100% with the above posts regarding length. Rifle length is the one thing in a man's life where shorter is better.

The difference between a 16" and an 11.5" barrel is phenomenal when working around corners or inside rooms/hallways.

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Dan W · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2016, 11:27:46 PM »

I am not concerned with targets beyond 100 yards with a pistol, more concerned with fragmentation and lethality of 5.56 ammo at reduced velocity as well as reduced dwell time of the carbine gas system causing operational reliability to suffer.

I am going to set 10.5" as my minimum with 11.5-12.5" desired

PC13 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2016, 11:45:19 PM »

I think most of your concerns could be addressed with ammo selection/bullet weight choices. Lots of good reading out there for googling. I'll see if I can find you some links. You're going to sacrifice roughly (very roughly, lots of variables) 100 fps for every inch of barrel reduction.

The dwell time issues can easily be mitigated with buffer weight testing or an adjustable gas block. If/when you choose to SBR, there's the A5 system to help with reliability, too.

I agree with your barrel length choices. I think 10.5" is the minimum I would choose as well and I personally prefer my 11.5 over the 10.5. I think it's the best balance for all your stated concerns.

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bkoenig · « **Reply #16 on:** February 24, 2016, 06:05:36 AM »

My 11.5" was pretty overgassed (and REALLY overgassed when running suppressed) but an adjustable gas block tamed it down nicely.

PC13 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2016, 08:39:30 PM »

Dan, this might address your concerns about SBR/Pistol performance. Didn't know this was on the market and haven't used any, but you can decide for yourself if it interests you.
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/75-gr-tap-sbr

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Dan W · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2016, 10:47:23 PM »

I decided to go with a Faxon 11.5" Nitride barrel with a midlength gas system
http://faxonfirearms.com/11-5-big-gunner-5-56-nato-mid-length-4150-qpq/

Somewhat of a new concept, but I have researched it enough to convince myself it is viable.

I am also going to use an SLR Sentry 6 gas block to fine tune the gas system when I eventually get my first suppressor.

My plan is suppressor next and SBR stamp after that cuz my tax refund is all used up

shooter · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2016, 11:24:21 PM »

very nice looking barrel, that gas port is huge, but a adjustable gas block should be good. I know they tested it, but that gas port is really close to the muzzle, I was always told you need 4 inches of barrel past the gas post.