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Author Topic: .25 APC v .22LR  (Read 2105 times)

Offline GreyGeek

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.25 APC v .22LR
« on: October 27, 2016, 08:17:49 PM »
I am old enough to remember when LOTS of people carried pocket pistols in both calibers.     Here is an interesting video comparing the two rounds



Offline Wildgoose

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2016, 08:25:00 AM »
Thanks for posting. Very interesting indeed.

Offline Kendahl

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2016, 05:59:22 PM »
Something else that made the .25 obsolete is the advent of really small .380s.

Any gun benefits from good sights and a good trigger but tiny ones are affected most. There is a YouTube video of Hickok45 hitting the gong at the back of his range with a Kahr P380.

I wasn't impressed by the penetration test. Old Painless on The Box o' Truth figures that 24" of water is comparable to 12" of ballistic gelatin. If so, the minimum would be for a bullet to make it through a line of four one gallon milk jugs. That might require shooting round nose bullets instead of hollow points. During the disastrous FBI shootout in Miami thirty years ago, the more effective of the two bad guys caught a bullet early in the fight that failed to put him down because it stopped short of his heart.

The smaller the gun and the more powerful the caliber, the worse the recoil. If I were going to carry a small, light revolver, it would be a Ruger LCR in .22 LR. Eight shots instead of five or six and minimal recoil.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2016, 05:02:02 PM »
Something else that made the .25 obsolete is the advent of really small .380s.
.38 cartridges are eight times the cost of .22LR.

The smaller the gun and the more powerful the caliber, the worse the recoil. If I were going to carry a small, light revolver, it would be a Ruger LCR in .22 LR. Eight shots instead of five or six and minimal recoil.
Nine, with one in the pipe.   Even then the recoil of an HP-22A or a PT-22 is going to take you off target unless you have a good two hand hold on the gun.   

 However, the center of mass isn't going to do it for you with a .22LR unless you get lucky and hit the heart or the dorsal aorta or the superior vena cava.   As the video implies, "center of head" would be better than center of mass, which is about the same size as center of head.    Lateral rib shots, or a gut shot isn't going to do much to stop someone high on adrenaline.  A throat shot might be useful it it passes through the throat and hits the spine.    On the head, perforating anything but the ears is going to make for a bad day.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 05:04:12 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline BranchMillardian

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2016, 03:07:51 PM »
Thanks for the video. It was interesting.

Something I ran across a few years ago: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
The raw statistics this fellow gathered was eye opening for me, but not surprising (based upon my own hunting and target shooting experience). I think you might find his research interesting too.

I had a similar struggle about five years ago, when helping my wife learn to shoot and when she picked a handgun for herself. Small caliber arms don't get the credit they deserve.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 03:14:21 PM by BranchMillardian »
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Offline Kendahl

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2016, 10:07:35 PM »
Something I ran across a few years ago: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

This study has appeared in several places including Ellifritz's own blog, www.activeresponsetraining.net. It generated considerable controversy. It also met with considerable criticism some of which I think was excessive and unfair.

The biggest problem is that it doesn't quantify the statistical uncertainty in the results. It's not enough to say that a given caliber produces a one-shot stop X% of the time. If Ellifritz repeated the study with a different set of shootings, he wouldn't get exactly X% the second time. After many repetitions, he would be able to say that it was X% ± Y%. With enough data, Y would be small enough that you could see meaningful differences. Ellifritz says that he doesn't have enough data to get reliable results for Y. I believe him.

The second problem is that the study doesn't separate out several important independent variables. The ones I can think of are bullet design (brand and model, not just weight and expanding or not), where the target was hit (central nervous system, upper torso, peripheral areas) and whether drugs rendered the target insensitive to pain and shock. Even if Ellifritz limited bullet variation to expanding and non-expanding, he would need 2 x 3 x 2 = 12 times as much data. It took him several years to accumulate 1,800 data points. I wouldn't want to be the one to say, "Come back when you have 21,600 points."

It may be possible to get a hint at the internal consistency of the study by ranking calibers and looking at violations of those rankings. If all other factors are the same, a faster bullet should be at least as effective as a slower one and a bigger one should be at least as effective as a smaller one. With those assumptions, .44 mag >= .357 mag, .357 mag >= .38 special, 9 mm >= .380 ACP >= .32 >= .25 ACP. (>= means that the caliber on the left is at least as effective as the caliber on the right.) The parameter of most interest to me is failure to incapacitate since that's the situation in which you most desperately need the bullet to do its job. Violations in the rankings are .44 mag < .357 mag by 4%, .32 < .25 ACP by 5%. Everything else makes sense. Uncertainty in a result is inversely proportional to the square root of the number of samples. Since .44 mag and .32 were used least often, by more than a factor of two, this is a plausible explanation for these two exceptions.

Most stops are psychological. A combination of fear, shock and pain persuades the bad guy to cease his attack. If that's not enough, stopping him requires physical incapacitation through damage to the central nervous system or through blood loss resulting in loss of consciousness. For me, the one thing in Ellifritz's study that stood out, but may still not be statistically significant, is that failure to incapacitate was noticeably lower with .357 (mag and Sig) than with any of the other handgun calibers. The most popular self defense calibers, 9 mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, were identical. .380 ACP and .38 special aren't far behind. I wonder if .38 special isn't more like .380 than 9 mm.

Offline shooter

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2016, 12:37:10 AM »
  one small detail that most of these studies miss, they all use factory ammo, while its extremely hard to reload of even change the powder load in a 22lr. altho it can be done. Its a lot easier to reload 25 to a higher level..
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2016, 10:47:45 AM »
Two of my Luvly Daughters have been provided by their loving Daddy with Beretta 21A Bobcats in .22LR as their concealed carry handguns.

Small.  Lightweight.  Very economical for practice.  Almost no recoil to speak of.

Fit nicely and quietly into purses and jogging outfits.   Fairly straightforward DA/SA mechanics.

Not so EZ-of-operation as an LCR, but then there's no need to rack stiff slides, stuff like that.

7 in the magazine; 1 in the tip-up chamber.

And  8 screaming loud, zipping CCI Stingers in the Perp's face as fast as the trigger can be pulled will serve quite well to neutralize most adverse social security situations.   The handgun never recoils off target.

I read up, studied, and learned everything I could about Mouse Guns before making these gifts.

And having considered all the currently available literature, we are quite comfortable with the current arrangements.

Thanx, GG, for this excellent posting.


sfg
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 10:54:06 AM by SemperFiGuy »
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Offline JTH

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2016, 12:52:17 PM »
And  8 screaming loud, zipping CCI Stingers in the Perp's face as fast as the trigger can be pulled will serve quite well to neutralize most adverse social security situations.   The handgun never recoils off target.

Any particular reason for Stingers?  I'm just curious, since Stingers lose almost all of their velocity advantage out of a short barrel like that.  Penetration is often along the lines of 10" or so, with velocities less 1000 fps.   (As compared to something like the CCI Mini-Mag, which has a very-slightly lower velocity, but gets better penetration, probably due to the slightly heavier bullet.)

I like the "Ballistics by the Inch" website, because it is always interesting to take a look at the velocity differences that occur based on difference barrel lengths.  (For example, certain loads in 9mm work well in both G26s and G34s, and some definitely don't.)

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

I have a Beretta Tomcat that I like shooting (same gun as the Bobcat, effectively, but in .32acp), though I personally wouldn't carry it.  Good little gun, though, and much more fun to shoot than you might think.
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2016, 04:24:05 PM »
Quote
(As compared to something like the CCI Mini-Mag, which has a very-slightly lower velocity, but gets better penetration, probably due to the slightly heavier bullet.)

Another insightful observation from jth, which is his usual standard here on the Forum.   Let's talk about it.

Yes....

CCI Mini-Mags may be even better, one reason being that they cycle through the 21A system better than the CCIs, based on tests that we've run at the range.   The 21A is a straight blow-back device, which tends to work well when it's newly cleaned and very lightly lubed.  One nice feature is that it will shoot as fast as the trigger can be fingered and still stay right on the target.   My lightweight 9mm carry gun won't do that.

(Suggestion for interesting test:   Side-by-side pocket 9mm and Beretta 21A>>  See how many 9mms can be pumped out in the time it takes the 21A to empty.   Then check targets for shot-placement hits.)

Anyhow, the Stingers may actually have too much Ooomph for the 21A and its blowback system.   (Also, FWIW, somewhere in official literature I read that Beretta doesn't want the 21A to have a steady diet of Stingers.)

Stingers tend to have more FLASH-BANG-FLAME effect at night, which is kind of an additional side-benefit, assuming that the Perp will thusly be more intimidated.   Never been a Perp, so can't really say.

It doesn't take much shooting for some of the 21As to get sticky-stoppy-FTF.   Which is unacceptable for self-defense.   Always leave the house with the 21A in tip-top state of clean-and-ready.   And check for pocket lint.

And yes, that Ballistics by the Inch website is bookmarked on my computer.   Lotta useful data therein

Here are some data:

CCI Stingers:     32gr HP    1640fps   (rifle test barrel, I suppose)
CCI Mini-Mags:  36 gr HP    1260fps   (""""""""""""""""""""""""""")


One of these days I should comparison-test actual muzzle velocities out of both Stingers and M-Ms to see exactly what kind of performance difference may exist between the two cartridges out of the 21A.   Convert that info to muzzle energy and see wot's wot.   Maybe shoot some punkins, eggplants, squash, bottles............stuff like that.   (Never sure exactly how to quantitatively analyze that kind of testing, but wottheheck, it's fun.

Interesting stuff.



sfg


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Offline BranchMillardian

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2016, 07:30:29 AM »
Nice, I was hoping this would generate some discussion.


<snip>...
Most stops are psychological. A combination of fear, shock and pain persuades the bad guy to cease his attack. If that's not enough, stopping him requires physical incapacitation through damage to the central nervous system or through blood loss resulting in loss of consciousness. For me, the one thing in Ellifritz's study that stood out, but may still not be statistically significant, is that failure to incapacitate was noticeably lower with .357 (mag and Sig) than with any of the other handgun calibers. The most popular self defense calibers, 9 mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, were identical. .380 ACP and .38 special aren't far behind. I wonder if .38 special isn't more like .380 than 9 mm.

Yes, I noticed this too. Specifically with .22, .25 and .32. It would seem we are pretty much on the same page. The reasons these wimpy calibers were so successful probably has to do with the psychological variable...that and it's easier to get multiple accurate hits to key locations on a body quickly. Which just proves out those little nuggets of wisdom;  "have a gun" and "A hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44".

Oh, and I like .38spl...from yesteryear. I have a load that's still under 20k psi and gets about 875fps using a 158gr LSWC from a 3" barrel. They wimpified the SAAMI spec thanks to all these dainty little metro pocket 38's and 357's around today.

Any particular reason for Stingers?  I'm just curious, since Stingers lose almost all of their velocity advantage out of a short barrel like that.  Penetration is often along the lines of 10" or so, with velocities less 1000 fps.   (As compared to something like the CCI Mini-Mag, which has a very-slightly lower velocity, but gets better penetration, probably due to the slightly heavier bullet.)

TNOUTDOOR9 - 36gr LRN .22 Mini-mag - Handgun

TNOURDOOR9 - 32gr .22 CCI Stinger - Handgun

Jello tests. Make of them what you will. I too have an aversion to Stingers. I've seen other reports of shallow depth and lack of penetration to vitals.

Full disclosure: We have a couple .22's for target shooting and defense. They are my wife's guns of choice. I was trying for at minimum .380, but anything we tried she just couldn't shoot well. After about a year of looking she finally settled on a Bersa .22 and can put a 10 rd magazine into about a 5-6" group at ten yards. I also picked up a Ruger 10/22 a few years back. I figured a BX-25 magazine and a couple of 10 rd dumps from the Bersa go along way. It's not my first choice though. But they definitely can be effective. Back on the farm dad put his High Standard to good use on more than one occasion on feral dogs and coyotes.

Eventually I would like to see if I can get her a Bersa in .380 and get her running on that.

I keep Mini-mags and 40gr Velocitors around for .22 defense purposes. 
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2016, 05:56:31 AM »
With the possible exception of the .50 caliber Desert Eagle, hand guns just make holes.   The cross-sectional area of a .44 is only 4X that of a .22.   So for handguns hole placement is paramount.

Long guns are, of course, in another league because of the bullet velocity combined with mushrooming or tumbling, which turns the maximum amount of kinetic energy into tissue damage via hydrostatic shock.  While mass is important doubling the velocity quadruples the K.E.   
So does a 1 Oz slug (437.5gr) compared to a 129 gr bullet.

I don't carry a 20 ga shotgun in my pant leg because walking like Chester is awkward and dropping your pants would be the only quick way of drawing it.  From my POV it brings much greater firepower to castle defense than any handgun, and 9 buckshot of .25 caliber per round, if one doesn't load a slug, pretty well takes hole placement concern out of the picture.


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Offline JTH

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Re: .25 APC v .22LR
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2016, 02:57:31 PM »
From my POV it brings much greater firepower to castle defense than any handgun, and 9 buckshot of .25 caliber per round, if one doesn't load a slug, pretty well takes hole placement concern out of the picture.

Given the lack of spread of shot at inside-the-home distances, I'm not sure that last part works that way...
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