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Author Topic: First Rule of Concealed Carry  (Read 7166 times)

Offline JTH

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First Rule of Concealed Carry
« on: December 20, 2016, 12:24:22 PM »
I'm not a fan of carrying tiny guns for concealed carry.  I don't like .25acp, .22LR, .32ACP, or .380 calibers for self-defense.  I think two-shot derringers are indicators of people who don't understand anything about self-defense.  I think a ported subcompact means they've never actually shot it or read anything about round effectiveness.  I think that in this day and age, carrying a revolver as a primary is a poor choice. 

None of that has to do with whether I'm going to tell someone they are doing it wrong, with respect to concealed carry.  Are they following the first rule? 

https://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2016/12/20/rule-one-of-concealed-carry/

Once they are following the first rule, then some other criteria should be considered.  (To upgrade from "not wrong" to "making advantageous choices.") But....if they've got the First Rule down solid, that puts them WAY ahead of most people.

Do you follow the first rule?
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Offline m morton

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 01:39:31 PM »
i live in west Omaha off 144 th and maple and as i feel very safe where i live and i carry at all times  i don't even walk my dog around the block with out it. not because i am afraid as some would say but because i am not afraid to defend my self ! bad things happen to good people and bad thing happen in good areas . i firmly believe good people can stop bad people and most if not all bad people are cowards and will stop their bad actions as soon as some one stands up to them......... or as the police see every day they run away .

 the first rule of concealed carry is simply:  HAVE A GUN. check
I will allow myself one personal observation. If you want to disarm yourself, that is your choice. The following quote is a favorite of mine and something to keep in mind when you make that choice.

“Sheep don’t tell wolves what’s for dinner.”

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2016, 03:57:15 PM »
I don't think you can automatically say something is a poor choice.  I think it is dependent on circumstances. A firearm is a tool and just like any other tools you should pick the best one for the specific job.

Why is my S&W model 327 TRR8 8 shot .357 a poor choice just because it is a revolver?  It only holds one less round than my 9mm Shield but I can shoot it more accurately and it is less likely to jam. In my mind it makes it a good choice. At least when I am wearing the proper attire to conceal it.

When I wear less clothes the Shield is the better choice because it is more easily concealed.

When I get down to a pair of shorts and a t-shirt my Kel-Tec .380 is my choice because I can carry it in my pocket completely concealed.  In a gunfight would it be my first choice?  Of course not, but it is the best choice if it is the only concealable gun I have based on my clothing   

No different than preferring an 8" screwdriver but dealing you need a 2" one because of space limitations.


Offline JTH

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2016, 10:11:22 PM »
I don't think you can automatically say something is a poor choice.

I think it is quite simple and obvious that certain things are poor choices.

If you are an older female with arthritis, carrying a S&W .44 Magnum revolver is a poor choice.

If you are an adult male of average size, weight, and hand strength who works in a permissive environment, carrying a 2-shot .22LR derringer is a poor choice.

If you are completely new to firearms, a scandium-framed .357 Magnum (like the S&W Model 340 PD) is a poor choice.  (I note that the 340 PD is a great gun, and I want one....and I don't even like revolvers.  This doesn't change the fact that in that situation, it is a poor choice.)

Plenty of things are poor choices.

That was separate from the actual point of the article, though, I'll note.

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I think it is dependent on circumstances. A firearm is a tool and just like any other tools you should pick the best one for the specific job.

Exactly.  That's why sometimes it is obvious that people are making poor choices.

Very often, people make choices that are obviously not good ones for that set of circumstances, when they could have made other choices instead.

But like I said, that wasn't actually the point of this article.   It will come up in the third in the series, though, because lots of people get emotionally attached to their poor choices, and defend them strongly, even though their defense normally comes down to some variation of "but I like it better" instead of "but I shoot it better."

(Often they don't actually have any idea if they would have shot something else better, because they never actually tried anything other than what they are emotionally invested in, so their contention of "but I shoot it better" isn't really much of an argument.)

When I post that article, I'll look forward to talking with you about why I think particular choices are poor ones.  :)

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Why is my S&W model 327 TRR8 8 shot .357 a poor choice just because it is a revolver?  It only holds one less round than my 9mm Shield but I can shoot it more accurately and it is less likely to jam. In my mind it makes it a good choice. At least when I am wearing the proper attire to conceal it.

Are you sure you want to compare a 35 oz, 10.5" long revolver to a single-stack subcompact?  Because if you want to argue against a strawman (comparing a full-size revolver with a 5" barrel against a single-stack subcompact auto when there is nothing remotely similar about them) you certainly can, but it won't convince anyone.

A more reasonable comparison would be with something like a G17....or, amusingly enough, even a Glock 34, since that particular long-slide full-size semi-auto pistol is still 1.75 inches shorter than your revolver, even though the semi-auto has a longer barrel.  And the G34 only weighs 26 ounces---matter of fact, fully loaded with its 17+1 rounds, it is STILL lighter than your revolver when your revolver is UNloaded.

So....a Glock 34 is narrower, shorter, lighter, and has 225% of the capacity of your revolver.  And probably has a lighter/shorter trigger, since while S&W's custom shop can do fantastic things, it is still a revolver with a double-action pull that needs to be able to reliably light off all types of primers.

But....you were comparing your revolver to a singlestack subcompact?  And saying it was obviously a good choice?


Anyway----that's an argument for the third article in the series.  This first one, is all about rule one.  So the question is, are people following Rule One of Concealed Carry, or are they failing that part of the test?
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CC

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 06:11:37 AM »
You made the statement "  I think that in this day and age, carrying a revolver as a primary is a poor choice." so my point that a revolver is not always a poor choice since I addresses your comment.   You didn't say why the revolver I described was a poor choice if I want to carry it?  Sure it is heavier and bigger than a subcompact but does that make it a poor choice?  It is only a poor choice if because of its weight and size I don't carry it. If I don't mind that and want to carry it it is a great defensive weapon.

And the examples you gave are poor choices, but you only focused on the gun initially which is what I was addressing. Your examples basically illustrated what I said, you have to fit the gun to the situation. The gun alone, generally is not the poor choice.  The poor choice is not selecting the proper tool.

Offline Lmbass14

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 08:21:37 AM »



Offline JTH

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 09:06:08 AM »
You made the statement "  I think that in this day and age, carrying a revolver as a primary is a poor choice." so my point that a revolver is not always a poor choice since I addresses your comment. 

You attempted to argue it was a "good choice" by comparing it to a gun that in no way resembles it.

Comparing a 10.5", 35oz revolver to a subcompact singlestack makes no sense.

In this day and age, if you are carrying a 10.5", 35oz gun as your concealed carry, you are making a poor choice.  Not because it is huge (which it is), but because if you can carry a gun that huge, you could instead actually carry one that is lighter, has more than twice the capacity, and is easier to shoot well.

In this day and age, I think carrying a revolver IS a poor choice.  There are choices that are even worse, that's true.  Open carrying an LCP in a OWB holster, for example.  (Cue the angry LCP fans who don't understand the particular niche in which the LCP fits very well, which is not OWB open carry.) 

If you are carrying---great.  You are following the most important rule of self-defense with respect to concealed carry.  The other rules aren't nearly as important.  AND, since you can defend yourself in many situations with even a single-shot .22LR, your choice of gun (as long as it can go bang at least once) is much less important than rule one.  (That's why "equipment choice" is third on the priority list, and I haven't even finishing writing THAT article yet.)

None of which changed the fact that your comparison was silly, if you wanted to use it to convince anyone.

Quote
You didn't say why the revolver I described was a poor choice if I want to carry it?  Sure it is heavier and bigger than a subcompact but does that make it a poor choice?  It is only a poor choice if because of its weight and size I don't carry it. If I don't mind that and want to carry it it is a great defensive weapon.

So, you are ignoring the part where I showed that if you have no problem carrying a gun that size, you could instead carry a gun than is lighter, slightly smaller, holds 225% as much ammunition, and is easier to shoot well?

Especially given the current increasing numbers (and rates) of multiple-attacker self-defense situations?

If you "don't mind that and want to carry it" then perhaps you should choose a gun that can do a better job for you?  If you don't mind a large heavy gun, there are a range of guns you could chose, most of which are lighter, higher capacity, and easier to shoot well. 

Do you like having lower capacity and a gun that is harder to shoot well at speed?  Do you feel a need to handicap yourself with respect to your ability to respond with lethal force in a wide variety of self-defense situations if necessary?

Given that situation, it IS a poor choice compared to many others. This, of course, is separate from whether or not I will say you are wrong.  (But you'd have to read the article to understand what I mean.)

Quote
And the examples you gave are poor choices, but you only focused on the gun initially which is what I was addressing. Your examples basically illustrated what I said, you have to fit the gun to the situation. The gun alone, generally is not the poor choice.  The poor choice is not selecting the proper tool.

Since the gun IS the tool, "not selecting the proper tool" means "not selecting the proper gun" which is another way of saying "the gun was a poor choice."

The gun, alone, is OFTEN the poor choice.  That doesn't mean it is the only poor choice---many people who make poor choices in guns also make poor choices in holsters, carry modes, training choices, and self-discipline in terms of personal interaction.

Many of those poor choices are because those people simply don't know any better.  Many gun owners don't research the reality of violence and self-defense before buying a gun and its related equipment for carry, so this isn't a surprise.  They listen to other people who don't know what they are talking about, and they make poor choices because they simply don't know any better than to rely on people who have opinions based on their own emotional investments.

However, there are also many, many people out there who make poor choices because they are so emotionally invested in their current choice that they will defend their poor choices even in the face of obvious factual examples to the contrary.


.....none of which addresses the point of the article itself.  It interests me that some people (this isn't directly solely at CC, because I've gotten a couple of other comments elsewhere) are so emotionally invested in their weapon-of-choice that they take one sentence out of an article on a particular topic, and write responses as if that was the topic---when the topic itself even says clearly that if you follow rule one, I won't tell you that you are wrong about your gun choice.

But....I'm not sure those people even READ the article, because they are solely arguing with me about one sentence in a paragraph I wrote as an introduction to a link to an article.

I'm curious:  CC, did you read the article?  Or are you just responding to that one single sentence from my initial post?  (And not understanding the difference between "doing it wrong" and "making a poor choice"?)
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Offline Wildgoose

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2016, 11:35:19 AM »
I defiantly always follow rule one. Heck I carry when I am working in my garage or mowing the lawn. However I don't always carry the same gun. Like CC I have different guns and calibers depending on the circumstances and wardrobe requirements. My wife on the other hand carries a revolver due to the fact that she simply dose not have the hand strength to reliably operate the slides on them. I am looking forward to further discussion and following articles.   

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 12:47:23 PM »



. What I am responding to is mostly the tone of your post. What is right is somewhat subjective.  We can agree on situations where the person is not making the best choice, but it is also an individual preference that neither you or I get to decide for them.

If I choose to carry a revolver and it meets my needs then there may be other choices, but it is the choice for me. Tell the SWAT team that decided to use the TRR8 over a semi-automatic pistol they are wrong or making a poor choice. They decided that the revolver was a better choice in their situation, but based on your comments they are making a poor choice.

Final point. You carry legally what you want to carry and I will do the same without telling you you're making a poor choice.

Offline JTH

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2016, 02:22:11 PM »
. What I am responding to is mostly the tone of your post. What is right is somewhat subjective.  We can agree on situations where the person is not making the best choice, but it is also an individual preference that neither you or I get to decide for them.

.....you are arguing with me about what I because you didn't like the words I chose, as opposed to having a problem with the meaning?  And are you aware that in your second sentence, you yourself say that sometimes the person "is not making the best choice"....which is what I said?

I never said I got to decide for anyone.  (Though I'll note, this makes it MUCH more obvious that you didn't read the article.)  As such, arguing with me because you are angry about that doesn't make much sense...

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If I choose to carry a revolver and it meets my needs then there may be other choices, but it is the choice for me.

This doesn't make it a good choice, and certainly not an optimal one. 

I note that you are ignoring what I said about choices.


Quote
Tell the SWAT team that decided to use the TRR8 over a semi-automatic pistol they are wrong or making a poor choice. They decided that the revolver was a better choice in their situation, but based on your comments they are making a poor choice.

What SWAT team is doing this?  (Note:  If you don't know of one, then it isn't much of an argument.)

Quote
Final point. You carry legally what you want to carry and I will do the same without telling you you're making a poor choice.

Okay.  Personally, I think that getting information out there so that people can make better choices is kind of important.

...and you know that your choice is poor, because you are carefully ignoring what I said regarding better choices.  This doesn't mean you can't do whatever you like.  It is your life, your person, and your self-defense choices.  You can do whatever you like, up to and including carrying a 44 Magnum Revolver with an optic and a 10" barrel, loaded with alternating MagSafe and Black Rhino Teflon-Coated Spinning Wheels O' Death brand bullets out of a SERPA OWB holster carried in a small-of-the-back position.

That's obviously a poor choice.  (Actually, it is a huge steaming pile of poor choices.)  But hey, if That Guy is actually following Rule One, good on him.

As I said in the first post (and very clearly in the article itself):  "None of that has to do with whether I'm going to tell someone they are doing it wrong, with respect to concealed carry.  Are they following the first rule?"


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Offline abbafandr

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 07:04:39 PM »
I always carry.  9mm is my choice of caliber.  G17 or Kel Tec pf9 are my arms of choice, sometimes both. 
I don't anticipate trouble, but I'm sure I'm not going to get advance notice of it. 

Offline JTH

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 09:02:20 PM »
I don't anticipate trouble, but I'm sure I'm not going to get advance notice of it. 

"Pardon me, sir, but if you don't mind, I'd like to request your presence at the scene of a crime about to occur.  I can pencil you in for two hours hence, if that time works for you?  Sir?"

:)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 09:21:31 AM by jthhapkido »
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Offline Les

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 09:34:44 PM »
Just thinking.....I carry when I can, caliber/revolver/pistol not important, but lets remember to not scare off new people with our discussions/arguments over semantics and verbal gymnastics.  I enjoy discussion. It makes us all better. 

Offline 20nickels

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2016, 07:57:24 PM »
I've carried a shrouded hammer .38 in the cold months for years.  It's hard to beat in a coat pocket where an auto cannot be trusted to cycle. This sort of carry has settled problems for many, many years. Try it, you'll like it.
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2016, 12:37:48 AM »
Interesting Visual Insight Here on .22LR Cranial Damage:



No Sound.   A few seconds' time can be saved by watching up to 1:20, then skipping to 2:00.   (Not much happens in between.)

Clearly, a .22LR Mousegun will not achieve 1070fps (claimed cartridge velocity in this video).  However, a .22WMR Ruger LCR will readily do so.   (1.87" barrel and all.)

The video provides some visual insight about the potential of .22s for self defense.  And perhaps about shot placement, as well. 

Against deer, at least.


FWIW,

sfg
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 08:37:27 AM by SemperFiGuy »
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Offline JTH

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2016, 10:12:41 AM »
This looks like a good place and time to put up the second in the series.  :)

(I should have KNOWN that putting this up would get people all wound up about their choice of equipment, even though the article itself said that wasn't the point, and that if someone HAD A GUN, I wouldn't tell them they were wrong.  One of the things I always find interesting about people is how they decide to defend their choice of equipment for self-defense.  I'm sure that'll show up again after the Third Rule article is posted!)

Second in the Series:  https://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/rule-two-of-concealed-carry/

(It ALSO isn't about what your equipment choices are. That's all the way down the priority list to Rule Three.)

Rule Two is what separates "gun owners" from "people who are prepared to defend themselves."  Not merely "willing" but "prepared".

It is always interesting to see who has made sufficient commitment to the responsibility of their own defense to actually practice to at least a certain level of competency---and who hasn't.  And of the ones who haven't, the justifications they use to defend their lack of commitment.

Again:  If people follow Rule One, then (based on historical data regarding defensive gun uses) they have a significantly higher chance of being able to defend themselves that people who don't follow Rule One. 

But.....those who follow Rule Two not only raise their chances significantly higher, but ALSO are far less likely to run into legal troubles afterward. 
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2016, 11:16:45 AM »
jthhapkido:

This posting continues to be (a) interesting and (b) very pertinent to CC.

As the theme develops here you are invited to perhaps address this well-known adage:

Beware the man who owns just one gun.

Various posters have indicated that they switch off their defensive carry handguns from time to time, depending on whatever reasons they may choose for doing such.

And other folks think that switching carry guns is not a very good idea, given what we know about muscle memory, firearms practice, all that.

Maybe herein; maybe another posting.


Cordially,


sfg


 


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Offline zofoman

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2016, 01:11:02 PM »
“Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.”  - Proverbs

For some people there simply are no other choices...let it go.
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Offline Les

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2016, 02:29:49 PM »
Just merely a guess on my part (And I've met and know very few here personally) but I'd say most of those who carry and post here already are doing 1 and 2 and I'd hope that folks don't just think after qualifying at the Ne. state level for CHP that they're good to go.  Honestly was surprised how easy it was.

Offline JTH

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Re: First Rule of Concealed Carry
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2016, 03:43:30 PM »
Just merely a guess on my part (And I've met and know very few here personally) but I'd say most of those who carry and post here already are doing 1 and 2 and I'd hope that folks don't just think after qualifying at the Ne. state level for CHP that they're good to go.  Honestly was surprised how easy it was.

Actually, from reading many discussions over time, I'd say a lot of people aren't following rule 1.

As for Rule 2---a lot of people think that they have a high competency level with their firearm/holster combination.  The problem is, many people base that on their personal opinion, as opposed to any objective standard.  They've never actually tested themselves on anything, so they don't actually know.

They might be outstanding.  But....they might not, either.  They haven't ever tried anything other than (perhaps) the state CCW qualification (which, literally, a 10-year-old can pass). 

As an example:  At the NFOA meetings last year and prior, I ran a Steel Challenge fun stage that was set up similar to Roundabout (one of people's two favorite SC stages, because the targets are close and you can run it really fast).  People could shoot it however they liked, with whatever gun they liked.  If they didn't have a holster for their gun, they could do a table start.  If they HAD a holster, it was their choice if they wanted to start there.

SC stages are about as directed toward the primary practical self-defense shooting skills as you can get---it literally is all about the draw, and getting accurate shots on target at speed.  No reloading on the clock, no movement on the clock (Roundabout doesn't, at least), no having to figure out what your stage plan is--none of that.  On the beep, draw, and hit all 5 steel plates as fast as you can.  We'll record the time

Do that a total of three times (in a real SC match, we'd do it five times, but at the NFOA meeting we did it only three), and we'll throw out your slowest run and add the rest together, and that's your score.  Lowest score wins.

Many people chose to shoot the stage with their carry gun (or their favorite handgun to shoot) from their carry holster or a standard OWB belt holster.

And MANY were shocked at how their holster bound the gun, how it was hard to reach, how they forgot to take off the safety, how many pulled their first DA shot badly, and how long it took them to hit five unmoving 12" plates at 7 to 12 yards.

A couple dropped magazines as they tried to shoot.  Some had guns that wouldn't run continuously for the 15 shots required to finish the stage.  (Jams due to grip, magazine issues, gun issues, etc.) 

Many had significant trouble re-holstering their firearms safely.

Most of those folks (who brought guns to the meeting, and had them on them) did indeed follow Rule One.  But....from the surprise they demonstrated, Rule Two was not followed nearly as well.

An amazing number of people suffer from talisman thinking--the idea that "having a gun" will mean that they are safe.  That merely having it is sufficient.  Many people don't shoot even an entire box of ammo out of their carry gun in a year...and this is among the people who actually DO carry on a daily basis.

Lots of people follow Rule One, and good on them.  It means that in a dire situation, they have one of the tools best suited to saving their lives in a lethal force situation.    This puts them FAR in advance of most people, who simply don't.

But because they don't know what a level of competency actually looks like (most people don't---where would they see it, if they didn't happen to hang around with people who ARE competent, and know what that looks like?) many people have a confidence-to-competency ratio that is....a little out of whack.

In my opinion, at the very least, anyone who is following Rule Two (for the part about gun handling skills) should be able to pass the Nebraska LEO Firearms Qualification.  (Truthfully, "competency" should require getting a 100%.  However, Rule Two is about basic knowledge, so "passing" is sufficient.   That's the minimum standard required for LEOs in this state.)

I shot this five years ago: 


The LEO Qual is simple, straightforward, requires the ability to safely draw, a couple of reloads, the ability to transition, and solid basic fundamentals for accuracy.  The par times are extremely generous, the target is huge, and the level required to pass is low---a 70%, or 35/50.  (You can actually miss EVERYTHING at the 10 and 15 yard lines and still pass, scarily enough.)

And yet....I'm thinking that other than passing the CCW qualification, a large majority of people who follow Rule One only practice draws and hitting single large stationary targets at close distances with no eye towards time or pressure.  This means that they MIGHT be absolutely fantastic shooters.  Or not.  And they don't actually know which it is, because they haven't ever tested themselves on any objective standard related to the shooting skills needed for self-defense.

Long story short:  I think a lot of people who think they follow Rule Two don't realize that they aren't actually following Rule Two---and if they knew, would change things so that they WERE following rule two.  They just don't know.  Simple question to ask yourself, regarding the shooting skills half of Rule Two:  When was the last time you measured your basic shooting skills against an objective standard?
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