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Offline Nebfamman

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« on: April 01, 2017, 09:22:26 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:36:58 PM by Nebfamman »

Offline cz75shooter

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 10:23:59 AM »
Interesting take. One of my objections to open carry is that it lacks the multiplier effect of concealed carry. Knowing that some citizens are armed (but not which ones) is IMO a much more effective deterrent than open carry, and this ties in with what you're saying: you are probably doing more good (and maybe less selfishly) by concealing.

(I'm not a fan of open carry -- particularly of long guns! -- for a number of reasons, but I'll also defend the right to safely carry in the manner you see appropriate.)

Offline RLMoeller

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 01:26:44 PM »
How would you compare that scenario to one where you are concealed and that guy decides to attack you.  Let's say you are able to use a lesser degree of force to end the confrontation.  That guy is still in need of a fix.  After he loses the confrontation with you he still goes an finds another victim.  Aren't his choices his alone?  The next victim had every opportunity to makes choices on how to defend themselves, no?

Offline JAK

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 01:37:11 PM »
The primary issue I have with open carry is it makes you a target. 

It may be from individuals that have objections to firearms that will either be confrontational or make false reports to the police. 
Keep in mind that if a complaint is made that accurately describes your gun and where you are carrying it, you will have a difficult time proving that you did nothing wrong.

It may also be from a criminal that decides to attack you to get your gun who then uses it to attack others. 

In the event of a terrorist attack it can also result in you being on of the first individuals to be killed.

By carrying concealed, the chances of any of these situations occurring can be reduced. 

While I am not a fan of open carry, I do recognize that for some individuals it may be the only option.

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Offline Mntnman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 01:39:34 PM »

 My problem with the open carrying of a sidearm has to do with victim selection. Let's say I'm walking down the street and joe scumbag decides I'm the guy that's going to buy his crack for him tonight, he approaches and at the last moment sees my gun and decides he needs a softer target so he lets me go about my way none the wiser to his intentions. Now, still needing to poison his worthless soul, this piece of human waste picks a new target, a softer target that cannot defend his/herself, things go bad and an innocent is hurt or killed. Tell me how I don't bear at least some responsibility for the harm that was caused. Didn't my pushing the harm from me by open carrying push it into another weaker person?
 

Morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion.

If you are carrying in any way you better be practicing situational awareness. That alone would likely have them looking for a softer target. You can't feel any guilt about showing that you are prepared to defend yourself and others. The sole resposibility lies on the perpetrator, unless you think of the victim being responsible for being a soft target.  :o

Also, open carry provides many tactical advantages over concealed or the police would be carrying concealed.

At the end of the day, your reason for carrying better be so that you can go home to your loved ones at the end of the day. You being armed does not obligate you to try and save the lives of strangers. You may choose to in the right situations, but taking the safest option for you should be a choice you can live with. When I go about armed, my duty is to come home to my girls.

Offline m morton

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 01:51:25 PM »
another 2 cents worth: CC is all ways better IMO

in your words the crack head avoids you because your open carry..... but your gun is of value to dirt bags .so you could become a target for a coming from behind bum-rush sneak attack and get your gun taken .OR . seen any of those "knock out game videos" 1 punch KO. dude is walking down the sidewalk a group of kids walking towards him joking around & bs-ing and BLAM out cold. no warning just a sucker punch ....  you wake up your guns gone ..

or

your at a gas station walk up to the counter to pay for your gas and a soda . you say Hi to the clerk this and pump #3 you say ...pull  out your wallet to pay. another dude walks up to rob the place ... see's your gun shoots you in the back takes the stores money plus your gun and wallet. you never even seen who shoots you....

don't think for a second your firearm is a deterrent to Evil Doers..

best to not show it ..
I will allow myself one personal observation. If you want to disarm yourself, that is your choice. The following quote is a favorite of mine and something to keep in mind when you make that choice.

“Sheep don’t tell wolves what’s for dinner.”

Offline Mntnman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 02:03:33 PM »
It's not always better. Each has advantages over the other.

I open carry more than any other way. I am outside of the concentrated liberal zones, though.

A few weeks ago I ate at Omaha Cheddars and a fellow was open carrying with his family. My daughter said he has a gun. I said that's great! She smiled.  I wasn't armed because we had to attend church. Whoever you were, I'm glad you open carry in the city.

Offline Mntnman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 02:11:41 PM »
It's really unusual for open carriers to be targeted, but it does happen. I believe the risk to be negligible, especially when proper situational awareness is practiced.

In my experience most people don't even see an arm being open carried.

Offline Nebfamman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 02:27:58 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:18:51 PM by Nebfamman »

Offline StuartJ

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2017, 03:25:22 PM »
I'm going to open carry from my car to the gun ranger and from gun range back to my car, that's about it.   During the drives to and from it will be locked in a case, locked in the trunk. I don't have a conceal carry permit so I won't be doing that. Besides  I don't think my new 4 inch barrel revolver, which is my first gun, is easily concealed.
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Offline Kendahl

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2017, 05:27:16 PM »
Also, open carry provides many tactical advantages over concealed or the police would be carrying concealed.
The only tactical advantage to open carry is that it allows for a quicker draw. A uniformed police officer might as well carry openly since his uniform identifies him. Officers in street clothes carry concealed. If their assignment is undercover, it may be deep concealment.

Offline Mntnman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2017, 05:42:47 PM »
The only tactical advantage to open carry is that it allows for a quicker draw. A uniformed police officer might as well carry openly since his uniform identifies him. Officers in street clothes carry concealed. If their assignment is undercover, it may be deep concealment.

That's not the only one. It's easier for you to get to as well. You may only have one hand left to fight with. Also, you can usually have a bigger gun. I can't conceal an fnx45 with 16 rounds very well. Big guns are generally easier to shoot accurately. It's more comfortable also encouraging you to carry.  There are others...

Offline depserv

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2017, 07:04:27 PM »
The thread is about the morality of open carry but has become about the strategy of it too.  So just for fun I'll throw in my two cents on both.

Sun Tzu wrote about this question two and a half thousand years ago when he wrote these words: all war is based in deception.  And these: Know your enemy and know yourself, and in many battles you will not be defeated.

One who forces you to defend your life against his aggression is your enemy.  iIt follows that the less he knows about you the more likely he is to be defeated, which is what you want.  This fundamental truth can be played out in a thousand ways.  For example, if you carry a pistol in a public place it's unlikely that you will be able to avoid turning your back on someone at some point.  Say you are in a grocery store sorting through produce and someone comes up behind you and bashes you over the head with a can of pork and beans.  Then he takes your gun and shoots you and everyone around you.  If you had been carrying concealed he would have been unlikely to do that because he would not have known you had a gun.

As to the morality part of it, that was also addressed by Sun Tzu, though indirectly.  One of the reasons that if you know your enemy and yourself both you will avoid defeat in many battles is that if you know your enemy and yourself you know if you are likely to lose a battle, so you can avoid it or disengage from it (hopefully).  And this is the basis of a common argument for open carry: a potential criminal who sees your gun will not do battle against the one with a gun (unless he can creep up behind him and take it).  This is the deterrent effect of open carry.  The morality of it is that it is supposedly good because it kept a violent incident from taking place.

But as the OP pointed out, the predator who avoids the guy with a gun is likely to just go assault someone else, probably someone who can't defend himself like the guy with the gun could have done.  When reading about self defense it's common for a writer to say something like you should [fill in the blank] so the predator leaves you alone and finds a different victim (or go to someone else's house or whatever).  That always seemed selfish to me. 

It would probably be unethical to deliberately bait a predator to draw him to you (depending on circumstances), but I see no problem with keeping him ignorant of your capability, even if his ignorance is one of the reasons he assaults you instead of the next guy.  If the primary reason for carrying concealed is strategic (or tactical as it's called), it doesn't matter if the other reason also exists, because you would carry concealed anyway.  So the question is moot.

This opens up a big can of worms in regard to a closely-related question: at what point do you have a moral and legal obligation to let an aggressor know you have a weapon.  I put some thoughts together on that awhile back and I'll copy and paste them here, because they address the broader question being raised on this thread:

Displaying a weapon stops a fight from happening far more often than using one, and this is by far the preferred method of self defense among those who commonly carry guns legally.  But all rules have exceptions, and there can be times when not displaying a weapon is the better course of action, even if displaying it might avoid a fight, especially if the avoidance seems likely to be temporary.
 
It has to be up to the defender to make the call on when to display his weapon.  His timing and judgment better be good and he better be able to articulate his reasoning no matter what he does, but if mortal combat is being forced on him, it has to be his call when to reveal that he has a weapon.  And from a strictly tactical perspective, it’s better for him to keep it hidden as long as he can, so it’s a surprise when he attacks with it.  Given the right circumstances, this can be a big deal. 

During peacetime weapons are commonly carried concealed by civilians where it's legal.  There are various reasons for the concealment but one of the big ones is that the hidden weapon is a big strategic advantage.  Those who carry in the open don’t have that advantage.  Those who do have to decide when to give it up, to either stop or end an assault.
     
Drawing a weapon too soon can cause big problems and drawing it too late can too.  Drawing it too soon can get you in trouble with the law; drawing it too late can get you killed.  How quickly you can access your weapon and use it to terminate an assault is a big consideration.
 
Unless displaying your weapon scares the aggressor away, the less he knows about you and your capabilities the better it is for you, until you use your weapon and he feels its effect before he sees it, giving you an edge in carrying out a successful counterattack.

If it is reasonably certain that displaying a weapon will stop aggression it’s usually the better course of action.  That’s why it’s the most common way for guns to be used in self defense.  But a defender is under no moral obligation to give up the advantage of a hidden weapon, if he has good reason to think that keeping his weapon hidden is the more likely way for him to survive the fight that was forced on him.
 
How this might apply to law has to be determined case by case; there are gray areas and justice is not always part of the law.  But it should never be the law that a defender has to give intelligence to an aggressor, if there is a reasonable concern that the intelligence might be used by the aggressor against the defender, even if doing so, as in displaying a weapon, might stop the aggressor from committing his crime, and therefore save his life from what the defender must do to defend herself from him. 

Here is an example: say a woman is being attacked by a man in a house and she has a hidden knife he is unaware of.  If she gets in close she can use the knife to defend herself by killing him and there is a good chance of success.  If she displays the knife, he takes a few steps and picks up a baseball bat or chair and easily overpowers her knife. 
 
Or say you’re surrounded by a socialist mob in a race riot; no guns are visible but some people are getting beat up with sticks and stones and kicked around like you see on the news sometimes.  You are escorting some orphans out of the riot zone.  You and most of the orphans are the wrong race for the riot but there are white people rioting too along with the colored folks so maybe you and the kids can kind of blend in and sneak out.  Maybe you and those with you even carry loot over your shoulder and yell socialist slogans so you can blend in better.
 
You have a hidden gun and would like to keep it hidden because you want to be as inconspicuous as you can and just get out.  If you have to use the gun you do not have enough ammo to shoot your way out of the riot zone, and there is no reason to think the sound of gunfire would draw a police presence (though it might draw an armed criminal presence).  Being inconspicuous is a real big deal to you at the moment because drawing attention to yourself could be a very bad thing.

If there is a direct assault against you maybe you can take it out with something other than your hidden gun, like say a hammer or pry bar, both legitimate things to carry as a righteous member of a socialist riot.  Do you have a right to use what you carry in your hand as a weapon while you keep your gun hidden, even if showing an assailant you have a gun might have stopped him from assaulting you and the orphans you are trying to escort out of the riot zone?  I say you do.
   
You as a defender are under no moral obligation to make yourself less able to survive a fight by giving up an advantage that might save your life, even if giving up the advantage might keep you from having to kill an aggressor.  You have no moral duty to put yourself or other innocent people at greater risk hoping to protect your assailant from the consequences of his own violence; there is no mandate that you give him intelligence he can use to make his attack more likely to succeed, even if the intelligence might save him from the consequences of his act.
 
If your act is legitimate self defense his death by the weapon in your hand is the fruit of his own hands, and his blood is on those hands, not yours; your hands are clean if it was his own act of aggression that forced you to kill him, even if you deceived him about your capabilities and killed him in a ruthless manner.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

None of this should be taken as legal advice because I’m not a lawyer.   The only legal advice I care to give is walk away from a fight if you are able.
The liberal cult seeks destruction of the American Republic like water seeks low ground.

Offline NE Bull

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2017, 08:32:38 PM »
BUTT>>>
My 1911 and Thompson built holster is just too purty to hide. And, too, it makes me look like a badass!!
My ol HiWay patrolman was not meant to be hidden from the snowflakes of the world. .357Mag wear it Loud and Proud.
but to the OP, as Rod eluded to, you are only accountable for YOUR actions and Your choices.  and Frankly, what is sending this nation into the drain is that the powers that be are making everyone accountable for other's poor choices and actions.  Case in point;  Omaha's OPOA's amendment to LB68 equals nothing more than oppressing every Omaha citizen's rights because of the actions of a few punk ass gangbangers.   
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Offline Mntnman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2017, 08:46:57 PM »
Case in point;  Omaha's OPOA's amendment to LB68 equals nothing more than oppressing every Omaha citizen's rights because of the actions of a few punk ass gangbangers.

Not even that. They just want it to pile on charges to facilitate plea bargains.

 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 10:51:10 AM by NE Bull »

Offline Dan W

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2017, 09:44:19 PM »
Open carry is easy to denigrate now that the open carriers have fought and won the battles that made CCW the law of the land.

Once there were only the choices to go unarmed, carry openly, or join the criminals...what was the moral choice then?
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Offline Mntnman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2017, 09:52:09 PM »
Open carry is easy to denigrate now that the open carriers have fought and won the battles that made CCW the law of the land.

Once there were only the choices to go unarmed, carry openly, or join the criminals...what was the moral choice then?

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Offline Merl

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2017, 11:38:36 PM »
Most who try to make open carry a bad thing to do, use it in a one person context like your the only one carrying.  Imagine if every law abiding citizen in Nebraska walked out every morning with is sidearm on,  in every store and on every street there were hundreds of sidearms in plain view, how long do you think it would be before the gangs and criminals decided this state was not the place to set up shop?  The mentality of the common criminal is not toughness, it is intimidation of the weak and undefended.  Dying is not the reason they do what they do and actually do not want to die.  Defense is always best done in numbers and the more people that open carry in groups the better the message being sent.

Offline NE Bull

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2017, 10:51:31 AM »
Not even that. They just want it to pile on charges to facilitate plea bargains.

 
yep, and on the flipside, the otherwise law abiding gun owner has to abide by these 'laws' or risk becoming a criminal.
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 Omaha Mayor Jean Stothert
 "A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that."  Shane

Offline Nebfamman

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Re: Morality ( for lack of a better word) of open carry
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 11:30:50 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:19:43 PM by Nebfamman »