What's the Deal with Bills of Sale?

[Laufen]

Why do so many private citizens place an unnecessary burden on themselves for a piece of paper that has zero validity in a court of law?  Private citizens are not required to record an individuals information for transfer of a firearm.   Why do so many of you do this?

[RLMoeller]

Why would you not have a record of when you acquired property?   Do you often walk out of a store with a major purchase without a receipt?

[Laufen]

Why would you not have a record of when you acquired property?   Do you often walk out of a store with a major purchase without a receipt?

I get a receipt for two reasons.  Tax write offs (which my firearms are not) and if I need to return the item (which I wouldn't do in a private firearm sale).  If you want to remember the date you bought it, write it down.

A bill of sale provides zero legal protection, and proves nothing beyond the fact that someone wrote something on paper. 
If I want record of when I acquired a firearm, I'll just make a note of it.  That's totally fine, but collecting someone's personal information needlessly isn't for me.  There are plenty of laws we're forced to follow already, there's no need to burden ourselves with some we create for ourselves.

[shooter]

 The main reason I do, is to be able to prove where I got it. just in case it winds up being a stolen weapon. I can say I bought it from this guy, 

[Laufen]

The main reason I do, is to be able to prove where I got it. just in case it winds up being a stolen weapon. I can say I bought it from this guy,

It doesn't prove anything, and doesn't keep you out of hot water for buying a hot gun.  Bills of sale provide zero legal protection. 

[Laufen]

..r

[Opusnbill7]

So....are you an actual lawyer, or just an internet one? 

Also, why do you care what someone else wants to do if they sell a firearm?  If it doesn't involve you, it's none of your business.  If it does, then refuse to sell to/purchase from that person.  There, problem solved.

[justsomeguy]

Laufen, are you beginning to see why this forum isn't very active anymore?

[Les]

Help me understand, why this is an unnecessary burden?  For me it's about protecting myself.  If it's stolen, at least if you have the persons contact info and gives the LEO somewhere else to look.  Of course I try not to invite the "Man" into my life if at all possible. 

[Laufen]

Help me understand, why this is an unnecessary burden?  For me it's about protecting myself.  If it's stolen, at least if you have the persons contact info and gives the LEO somewhere else to look.  Of course I try not to invite the "Man" into my life if at all possible.

It has no legal value whatsoever.  If it's stolen, you're in possession of stolen property regardless.

[Laufen]

So....are you an actual lawyer, or just an internet one? 

Also, why do you care what someone else wants to do if they sell a firearm?  If it doesn't involve you, it's none of your business.  If it does, then refuse to sell to/purchase from that person.  There, problem solved.

I'm just trying to figure out why so many people on here want a bill of sale when it has no legal power/value to the holder. 

[Laufen]

Laufen, are you beginning to see why this forum isn't very active anymore?

Yeah, but echo chambers are pretty boring.  It's nice to hear dissenting opinions.

[Les]

Lol, I'll bet you're a troll.....See ya...

[Laufen]

Lol, I'll bet you're a troll.....See ya...

No, I'm not a troll just because I have a different opinion about bills of sale, lol.

[depserv]

I would not call laufen a troll.  I deal with real trolls all the time when I make true statements on patriot sites, and this guy is nothing like them.  I understand his point: if a bill of sale is absolutely useless in a legal sense what purpose does it serve, and why do so many people bother filling one out?

This is a good point to have brought up, because I had assumed that a paper bill of sale, presumably having been signed by the buyer, could be used as proof that a gun had been transferred on a certain date to a certain named person.  So what I want to know is, is he correct in saying that the bill is of absolutely no use in a legal sense?  Hopefully those who know more about the law than I know can give us an answer.

Even if it is of no legal use, say some crime was committed with the gun after you sold it and the gun was found and traced back to you.  At least you would be able to give the police information on the name of the one you sold the gun to.  Even if the bill of sale is not considered proof that the sale took place it could still help clear you by letting the police know the name of the one the gun was sold to, which might lead them to catch the real perpetrator.  This of course is assuming you copied the buyer's name off something like a driver's license.

Another benefit it might have is that I would think a person who can not legally buy a gun would be disinclined to buy one if he had to show the seller his ID and the seller was going to copy his name off of it and keep it as a record.  I met an ATF snitch awhile back (friend of a friend kind of thing) and one of the things he did to make money was try to entrap law-abiding gun owners into committing some technical violation of gun law so he could turn them in.  He got paid a bounty for each one he snared.  To give you an idea what a lowlife he was he is now in prison for rape of an underage girl.  Would a person like that maybe be dishonest when he has a chance to make some money?  I would think so.  Would a paper bill of sale deter his dishonesty?  I don't know, but maybe. 

[Les]

Guess the following should've been the preface of my previous post,
<insert sarcasm>   

[SemperFiGuy]

OK........

The underlying premise of this post is that a bill of sale for a firearm "has no validity in law."

Most likely the Original Poster has substantial objective proof for this assertion and will be most willing to share it with Forum members so that all can be informed.

sfg

[CC]

My view is who cares?  If a person wants to sell a gun and as a condition of the sale they want to execute a bill a sale then as the seller it is their prerogative to do it. And, as a potential buyer it it your prerogative not to do business with them.

I am of the opinion that while it might not completely exonerate you if a crime was committed with the gun you sold it sure would help. Consider that most on her require a CC permit or permit to purchase. Thus they have positive ID of the person and if they get the person to sign it they have his signature so hard to say " wasn't me." 

Now as proof of not buying a stolen gun it isn't much use unless the seller shows you ID and signs it too.

[David Hineline]

If a Bill of Sale has no legal standing then why am I required to provide on to the County when I go to license a vehicle in a private purchase transaction? 

[shooter]

If a Bill of Sale has no legal standing then why am I required to provide on to the County when I go to license a vehicle in a private purchase transaction?

  For sales tax. govnt has to get there cut of every deal!