Bumpstock comment period and FOIA about bumpstocks and LV

[RobertH]

if you haven't put in a comment in the newest bump stock comment period, do so!  here's a link for some reading:  https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/FIREMISSION-DOJ-bump-stock-NFA-rewrite-rule-comments-over-10k-submitted-so-far-/5-2096454/

please DO NOT use a copy/pasted comment.  if you do so, all copied comments will be treated as one.  so write something original.

next up, ARFCOM's NOLO has obtained a FOIA on the LV shootings.  the thread is here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-/5-2101566/

it's getting interesting!!

[eelstrebor1]

Hmm, I just did a little re-reading of this and I wonder how the ATF states that this is a single pull of the trigger when a semi-auto trigger needs to reset/release after each fired round. The trigger would have to be released/reset before it can fire again which means the trigger has to be pulled again.....right? Of course, the bump stock automates this process but it's multiple pull/release of the trigger. I expect that bump stocks will be classified as machineguns regardless of logical reasoning. All it takes is a re-write of the definition of a machinegun. This should be a legislative action instead of an administrative action anyway. No one would be making these products if the 1986 FOPA hadn't infringed on our right.

[eelstrebor1]

This guy, and others, make a really good point. The ATF proposed rulemaking isn't really about bump-stocks, it's about any device or fine tuning of a weapon that'll be potentially banned. This video was really good and wasn't long-winded. So, the real question becomes: At what rate of fire will a mod put a firearm into the machine gun class?

[Nettles]

So, the real question becomes: At what rate of fire will a mod put a firearm into the machine gun class?

Let’s not bother the good people at the ATF with logic. That’s not their job; their job is to build a foundation for a house that’s already built, and it doesn’t need to work, it just needs to look the part.  Papier-mâché works as well as concrete for this purpose.  After all, they’re not the ones who have to live in the house, so what does it matter to them?

[Greybeard]

Excellent information presented in a logical manner.

[eelstrebor1]

I was just looking at this again. The ATF is saying that the bump stock continuous firing is initiated by a single pull of the trigger but it's actually started by the operator using a forward motion on the barrel shroud or handguard which causes the trigger pull. Recoil energy assists in the process but unless forward pressure on the barrel is maintained, the rifle won't maintain continuous firing. Effectively, it's still operating as a semi-auto rifle. So, it's an overreach by the ATF to classify a bump stock as a machine gun. What say you guys/gals?

[JAK]

Having read the proposed rule and the twisted rationale that the ATF is using several times,

What the ATF is claiming is that since the trigger finger dose not move each time the firearm fires, that is what makes it a machinegun.

I agree it makes no sense at all, if I apply that same criteria to all guns then the Winchester Model 97 pump-action shotgun is a machine gun because if the trigger is held back it will fire every time the fore end is pushed forward.

John K

[eelstrebor1]

Having read the proposed rule and the twisted rationale that the ATF is using several times,

What the ATF is claiming is that since the trigger finger dose not move each time the firearm fires, that is what makes it a machinegun.

I agree it makes no sense at all, if I apply that same criteria to all guns then the Winchester Model 97 pump-action shotgun is a machine gun because if the trigger is held back it will fire every time the fore end is pushed forward.

John K

I don't know much about shotguns but if that's the way it works then you could consider it to be a machine gun. Anyway, I'm not sure if making my points will sway the ATF .I was kinda hoping to find a "slam-dunk" argument to refute the ATF's contention that it's a machine gun. Regardless, I suppose that they're going to spin this to get their way. But a bump stock certainly wouldn't be the easiest way to rapid fire. On a machine gun, it's a lot easier to hold a trigger in the pulled position than to maintain forward pressure on the barrel while keeping your trigger finger in a fixed position for a bump stock rapid fire. Hopefully, someone will convince the ATF of their folly.

[depserv]

A shotgun is a machine gun, because when you pull the trigger one time multiple projectiles come out of the barrel.

[eelstrebor1]

I was shocked to hear LaPierre say that he supports the 2A infringement in regards to machineguns: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nra-ceo-wayne-lapierre-wont-commit-to-backing-bump-stock-bill-tells-atf-to-do-its-job/

[eelstrebor1]

I did it. I submitted my comments to the ATF even though I don't believe that it'll make much difference. We still have over a month to see what happens with this.

[RobertH]

on May 9th, David Hogg posted about the bump stock comment period.  looks like the anti's are posting comments now as well.  if you haven't, get it done now!  plus, there's a lot of "I support the 2A, but....." as well.  we must step up our game!

[RobertH]

attach these photos if you comment.  they are recent determinations, etc.

borrowed/stolen from an arfcom post.







also in 2017....

Case No. 3:16-cv-243-RLY-MPB
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA

On July 27, 2017 DOJ/ATF stated:

"Bump firing is the process of using the recoil of a semiautomatic firearm to fire in rapid succession, simulating the effect of an automatic firearm when performed with a high level of skill and precision by the shooter....The rapid fire sequence in bump firing is contingent on shooter input, rather than mechanical input, and thus can not shoot automatically"

On Sept 13, 2017 DOJ/ATF stated:

"Because of the manual, skill based methods required to operate a bump fire device" they are not machineguns.

[Jito463]

attach these photos if you comment.  they are recent determinations, etc.

borrowed/stolen from an arfcom post.

*snipped images*

also in 2017....

Case No. 3:16-cv-243-RLY-MPB
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA

On July 27, 2017 DOJ/ATF stated:

"Bump firing is the process of using the recoil of a semiautomatic firearm to fire in rapid succession, simulating the effect of an automatic firearm when performed with a high level of skill and precision by the shooter....The rapid fire sequence in bump firing is contingent on shooter input, rather than mechanical input, and thus can not shoot automatically"

On Sept 13, 2017 DOJ/ATF stated:

"Because of the manual, skill based methods required to operate a bump fire device" they are not machineguns.

Someone should forward these to the Lincoln city council.

[eelstrebor1]

That's how I commented to the ATF and that's my understanding of how a bump stock functions. Good to see that we're on the same page. I probably could have wrote it better but I hope they see the logic.  Looks like my comment got posted.

[RobertH]

the comment period has about 8 days left.  the anti's have hit this one hard.

[StuartJ]

LaPierre and Chris W Cox actually called upon the ATF (unelected bureaucrats) to ban bumpstocks.  That and LaPieer's comments on machines guns is why they wouldn't get another dime out of me.

[eelstrebor1]

LaPierre and Chris W Cox actually called upon the ATF (unelected bureaucrats) to ban bumpstocks.  That and LaPieer's comments on machines guns is why they wouldn't get another dime out of me.

Is that in writing or was it a phone call?

[RobertH]

TODAY IS THE FINAL DAY TO ENTER COMMENTS!

NOLO (he's a lawyer) from arfcom posted this 800 page comment: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qna585f9xsi8dcz/Comment.zip?dl=0

other groups will be posting videos or comments today as well.

last chance to tell the ATF that bumpstocks should NOT be outlawed.

[eelstrebor1]

I hope everyone kept their original stock and pistol grip just in case the regulation goes forward.