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Author Topic: Should gun permits be easier?  (Read 6145 times)

Offline Dan W

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Should gun permits be easier?
« on: April 29, 2010, 09:47:45 PM »

 Mark Bohaty, a firearms instructor, watches qualification shooting in Bruno Neb., in 2007.

Should gun permits be easier?

By Paul Hammel
WORLD-HERALD BUREAU
? Metro/Region

  
LINCOLN - A citizen's fatal shooting of a would-be robber in Omaha has sparked a debate over whether Nebraska should join three other states and do away with training and permit requirements to carry concealed handguns.

Harry J. McCullough III, a 32-year-old drugstore customer, shot one robber who was holding a sawed-off shotgun and apprehended another.

McCullough did not possess a state permit to carry a concealed handgun. He probably would be ineligible for such a permit because of his 1997 misdemeanor conviction for carrying a concealed weapon.

Many credit the actions of the former security guard with preventing the robbery and injury to others Monday night in a Walgreens store in the Benson neighborhood. McCullough drew his .40-caliber pistol and fired eight shots. Four struck the robber.

?This is a perfect example of why the good guys should have guns and the bad guys shouldn't,? said attorney James Martin Davis, who is representing McCullough.

State Sen. Mark Christensen of Imperial said Wednesday that he would favor Nebraska's joining Arizona, Vermont and Alaska in waiving all requirements except the criminal background check to carry concealed weapons.

That way, more people would carry concealed guns, the rural lawmaker said.

?Why give criminals the edge?? Christensen said. ?Police do a great job, but we can't afford enough to have them everywhere.?

Sen. Scott Lautenbaugh of Omaha said he would be open to looking at a law change. Two other Omaha lawmakers said public safety would be jeopardized by eliminating the state-required gun safety course.

Sen. Brenda Council, whose north Omaha district is plagued by gun crime, said doing away with the training requirements would only increase the danger to the general public.

?I'm always concerned about citizens acting as law enforcement,? Council said. ?People who carry weapons like that are more inclined to place a lot of people in danger.?

It is essential that citizens be well-trained before being allowed to carry concealed guns, said Sen. Brad Ashford of Omaha.

?You don't want to create a firefight in a situation when people are shooting each other and they don't know what they're doing,? Ashford said.

McCullough had received some training in carrying a handgun because he had obtained a City of Omaha permit to openly carry a loaded firearm.

Such ?open-carry? permits, which cost $105, are sought mostly by security guards who need the permits for their jobs, said a spokeswoman with the National Safety Council of Greater Omaha, which offers the gun-training courses.

The city ordinance has been around for at least 15 years. Eight hours of classroom instruction, followed by two hours at a gun range, are required. The training requirements are the same for obtaining a state concealed weapons permit.

The Safety Council spokeswoman was unable to say when McCullough was trained because she could not access the council's entire computer database, but McCullough renewed his permit it requires a criminal background check in 2006 and in 2009.

?He knew what he was doing,? said Davis, McCullough's attorney.

A person who has been convicted of misdemeanor charge of illegal possession of a concealed weapon as McCullough was in 1997 would be ineligible for a concealed weapons permit, said Deb Collins, a spokeswoman for the Nebraska State Patrol.

Council, the state senator, opposes letting citizens carrying concealed weapons, pointing to a recent incident at an Omaha restaurant in which several people were injured by shrapnel when a handgun, pulled out by a trained permit holder, went off accidentally.

Omaha City Prosecutor Marty Conboy said it might be a week or longer before his office decides whether to formally charge McCullough for failing to have a concealed weapons permit.

Conboy said witnesses would be required to prove that McCullough ?completely concealed? his gun. The city attorney said his office also must decide whether to prosecute, given the outcome of the incident.

Douglas County Attorney Don Kleine has said that McCullough was justified in using deadly force and that he would not prosecute him for the fatal shooting of Marquail Thomas, 18, who was holding a sawed-off shotgun that, it turned out, wasn't loaded.

Davis plans to fight McCullough's misdemeanor ticket.

?You can't punish a guy for doing what he did,? Davis said. ?He averted a robbery and prevented people from getting wounded and killed.?

Ashford, who heads the Legislature's Judiciary Committee, said state laws concerning citizens' rights to defend themselves with guns need to be clarified. That issue will be explored by the committee this summer and fall.

Ashford said he wants to expand the study to include gang-related shootings in Omaha.

?We're living in an incredibly violent time,? he said. ?I think public policy is behind in dealing with it.?

Christensen, the lawmaker from Imperial, introduced a bill in the past legislative session to clarify citizens' gun rights. It included a clause that would have barred people like McCullough from facing civil lawsuits for taking lawful actions to defend themselves from threats of death or violence.

The bill was killed in the Judiciary Committee but led to a planned interim study of the issue.

An official of the National Rifle Association, which backed the Christensen proposal, said the organization is hoping to persuade other states to follow the lead of Arizona, which passed a law this spring to do away with the training and permit needed to carry concealed weapons.

Arizonans would still have to pass a federal criminal background check to buy guns, said Scott Stevens, a legislative aide with the NRA.

?It definitely makes it a lot easier for law-abiding citizens to just buy a gun and not worry about the permit process,? Stevens said.

Christensen said ?common sense? would dictate that people obtaining handguns to carry would obtain or have the proper safety training.

Contact the writer:

402-473-9584, paul.hammel@owh.com
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 09:48:57 PM by Dan W »
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline NE Bull

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2010, 10:04:38 PM »
I kinda on the fence with this, while I would like to think buy and carry would be great, I have seen many folks that still have no regard for safety when handling firearms.  And folks like a co-worker of mine who has neve owned a firearm before, just bought a .40 for home defense.  Was asking me many questions because he had never shot before.  I do believe that some formal training is essential to educate the good guys and if for nothing else to weed out the idiots.

My $.02

Edit: Maybe lowering the cost of training and the application fee would help get the numbers of those carrying up. I know for me I had to work extra to cover the costs (well worth it)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 10:20:45 PM by NE Bull »
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Offline Dan W

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2010, 10:10:18 PM »
Even idiots have a right to self defense. But I recognize that there is a high level of responsibility  necessary while doing so.
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline DanClrk51

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 06:44:58 AM »
Owning and Carrying guns is a RIGHT. That is why I have a problem with the permit and any law banning concealed or open carry. Why should we have to ask for permission to exercise a RIGHT? If we have to ask the state for permission that means this RIGHT has now become a PRIVILEDGE in practice. Yes training is definitely needed, but you can learn how to use a gun safely from a friend, coworker etc. The state should not be allowed to mandate a permit nor training. A permit costs money which they take from you using fees. This means the state can raise those fees anytime to any amount they please. This limits the 2nd Amendment to only those that can afford the price that the state puts on it. This is discrminiation against the lower middle class and the poor. If the state really cares so much about training then why don't they pay for it?! Or a better idea would be to train people in the proper and safe use of firearms in junior and senior years of high school. All the idiot liberals were going on and on about how healthcare should be a right which it is not. And now the Obamacare law has passed. Arms are a constitutional right and yet they are treating it like a priviledge.
If they want people to have some formal training in firearms then why don't they allow the hunter safety course to be sufficient for carrying concealed? The hunter safety course is a free course and the instructor and materials are paid for by taxes on hunting gear and firearms.

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 08:57:20 AM »
As, I see this matter that the greatest down fall of this matter is not so much training and affirmative carry action but the process of going through getting one I do believe the gentleman and all have a right to protect themselves but....It would be the fingerprinting and the formality of such nothing much is said about to the degree of getting the permit you are taken throught the most extensive background check which in its selve is a consitutional wrong to be fingerprinted to such that if you were to apply for one and you did have a past of vistation of the police house for free room and board, they already have your print and that alone should be sufficent and not require the mass detail of prints neccessary to fulfill there need for prints.  We as firearm owners know the cost in todays world and yes it would be great if the cost were lower, but it would be the process and the and feeling the Nebr State Patrol personell gives you like you don't need the right to defend yourself. There is much to this topic to improve and look forward to discuss this matter further.
A-FIXER                     

Offline Mike M.

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 08:57:31 AM »
Dan you just touched on a good idea. The hunter safety course is paid for by taxes on hunting gear and firearms. Why not have a handgun/concealed safety course paid for the same way?
Mike

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Offline DanClrk51

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 11:49:03 AM »
Dan you just touched on a good idea. The hunter safety course is paid for by taxes on hunting gear and firearms. Why not have a handgun/concealed safety course paid for the same way?

Exactly. This would be a fairer solution.

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 01:56:50 PM »
Never Thought There'd Be the Day!!!!!!!

When Two Upstanding NFOA Members would agree that they want a FREE government program.

Hunter Education ain't free.

It's paid for--among other sources--by the Pittman-Robertson Act of 1937, which levies a 10 Per Cent Manufacturer's Excise Tax on ALL FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION.   And an 11 Per Cent Excise Tax on ARCHERY EQUIPMENT.

So--Youse guys are paying for it, and it's a hidden tax, like a value added tax.

And----all the Pittman-Robertson money pays for is the state home office administration.   All the Hunter Ed instructors are Pure Volunteers.

Like Me.   [Not Pure; Just a Volunteer.]

So--Boys--for your penance, go to the range and shoot until you bust 24/25.   Or qualify IDPA/Expert.

Free Government Program, Indeed!!!!   And on the NFOA!!

sfg
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 01:58:46 PM by SemperFiGuy »
Certified Instructor:  NE CHP & NRA-Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Personal Protection Inside/Outside Home, Home Firearm Safety, RTBAV, Metallic Cartridge & Shotshell Reloading.  NRA Chief RSO, IDPA Safety Officer, USPSA Range Officer.  NRA RangeTechTeamAdvisor.  NE Hunter Education (F&B).   Glock Armorer

Offline DanClrk51

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 02:01:25 PM »
Never Thought There'd Be the Day!!!!!!!

When Two Upstanding NFOA Members would agree that they want a FREE government program.

Hunter Education ain't free.

It's paid for--among other sources--by the Pittman-Robertson Act of 1937, which levies a 10 Per Cent Manufacturer's Excise Tax on ALL FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION.   And an 11 Per Cent Excise Tax on ARCHERY EQUIPMENT.

So--Youse guys are paying for it, and it's a hidden tax, like a value added tax.

And----all the Pittman-Robertson money pays for is the state home office administration.   All the Hunter Ed instructors are Pure Volunteers.

Like Me.   [Not Pure; Just a Volunteer.]

So--Boys--for your penance, go to the range and shoot until you bust 24/25.   Or qualify IDPA/Expert.

Free Government Program, Indeed!!!!   And on the NFOA!!

sfg

Exactly and that is why every state should recognize a hunter safety course as sufficient training to obtain a permit to carry a gun.....if they insist on requiring a permit that is. I say do away with the permit and let everyone who is not a felon carry a handgun if they so please. It is a RIGHT.

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 03:10:28 PM »
Dan C:

Here's a Wild Thought:

Switzerland has [or did have] Universal Military Training.

And then Everybody who went through UMT HAD to have a [military] firearm stashed behind the door at home in case the neighbors [Italy, Germany, etc.] decided to come rumbling through on their way to conquest.

Last I heard, Swiss crime was Zilch.   Same story, gun accidents.

I wunder if Swiss Banks ever get robbed.

Now, with all that speculation, I gotta go Google it up.

Anyhow, if we had UMT, then everyone who participated could CCW.

Just Exactly Like Iowa's New CCW Law:   Show DD214; get Shall-Issue CCW.   

Looks like the Iowegians got sumthin' right.

sfg
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Offline sjwsti

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 04:41:43 PM »
"well regulated Militia..." Sounds like the Founding Fathers thought some training should be in order too. I cant imagine they believed that a gun in the hands of an ignorant fool was a good idea.

Mandatory Military sevice sounds like the best idea yet.

- Shawn
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Offline Mike M.

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 08:26:36 PM »
Never Thought There'd Be the Day!!!!!!!

When Two Upstanding NFOA Members would agree that they want a FREE government program.

Hunter Education ain't free.

It's paid for--among other sources--by the Pittman-Robertson Act of 1937, which levies a 10 Per Cent Manufacturer's Excise Tax on ALL FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION.   And an 11 Per Cent Excise Tax on ARCHERY EQUIPMENT.

So--Youse guys are paying for it, and it's a hidden tax, like a value added tax.

And----all the Pittman-Robertson money pays for is the state home office administration.   All the Hunter Ed instructors are Pure Volunteers.

Like Me.   [Not Pure; Just a Volunteer.]

So--Boys--for your penance, go to the range and shoot until you bust 24/25.   Or qualify IDPA/Expert.

Free Government Program, Indeed!!!!   And on the NFOA!!

sfg


Ok we knew at least part was paid by taxes but I will still serve my time at the range.Sure wish my wife would give me a sentence like that when shes mad at me.
Mike

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Offline DanClrk51

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 11:57:45 PM »
"well regulated Militia..." Sounds like the Founding Fathers thought some training should be in order too. I cant imagine they believed that a gun in the hands of an ignorant fool was a good idea.

Mandatory Military sevice sounds like the best idea yet.

- Shawn

Whoa whoa whoa. Lets slow down here. It says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

This means that only regulation happens when a militia is formed for purposes of warfare.  So training would be a part of wanting to become a member of the militia. However the People are not militia members. And their right to keep and BEAR Arms, shall not be infringed".

The militia also "being necessary to the security of a FREE State". AKA, to fight off tyrants from within or to fight off foreign threats to the liberty of the state.

Offline FarmerRick

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 06:13:55 AM »
"well regulated Militia..." Sounds like the Founding Fathers thought some training should be in order too. I cant imagine they believed that a gun in the hands of an ignorant fool was a good idea.

Mandatory Military sevice sounds like the best idea yet.

- Shawn

So, since I didn't serve in the military, and have absolutely NO formal firearms training(outside of a CCW class), I'm not worthy of exercising my 2nd Amendment rights?

Really?   Thanks for letting me know.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 06:14:54 AM by FarmerRick »
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 07:45:37 AM »
Geez, I though we were simply exchanging ideas/opinions on whether gun permits should be easier to get. No reason to take it personally.

I think Ne. CCW training requirements are fair, except for the cost, it should be less expensive.

Having worked at a public range for more than 13 years I have seen first hand the consequenses of a gun in untrained hands. Injuries ranging from minor to nearly fatal. Good people can debate how best to give/recieve that training, or not. 

I think it is in all of our best interests to set our personal standards high. So push the keyboards back, get enrolled in an advanced class somewhere. I gurantee you will learn something of value, and you might even have a good time doing it.

I`ll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Henk Iverson, "Be as good as you Think you are"

- Shawn (taking my ball and going home...)

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Offline FarmerRick

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2010, 12:51:35 PM »
Shawn - No need to "go home".  I like a spirited debate and meant no disrespect.

Not everyone has the ability to enter the military.  Not everyone can afford the time and cost for training.  Not everyone can go shooting on a regular basis.   
Yes, that would be ideal if everyone could, but does that make one person less worthy of the right of self-defense than someone else who can do those things?

 I may not know all the fancy moves and tactical drills that some highly-trained operators know, but I WILL do what I can to protect myself and my family, if and when necessary.  Would I like to learn those things?  Sure, that would be great.  Do I see a possibility for that in my future?  Doubtful.


It is my opinion that there should be no permit necessary for me to carry any weapon I wish, in any manner I wish for any lawful purpose as stated in the Nebraska Constitution.  A permit of some kind is not the deciding factor of whether I do good or bad things with any weapon I may carry on my person.  My morals and values are the deciding factor, not some silly card. 

The states of Alaska, Vermont, and Arizona seem to trust their residents to do the right thing when carrying a weapon, I see no reason that Nebraska could not do the same.  If it weren't for the cities of Omaha and Lincoln, we might have that ability already.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Offline DaveB

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2010, 05:44:51 PM »
I do beleive that a responsible person would like some kind of training when they first get into guns. But, it should not be required. I don't think anyone should have to fill out any forms to practice their rights. I still can't find where it is in the 2nd that we have to have formal training first. If someone elects to get trained, that is their right.

Offline Mike M.

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2010, 07:23:41 PM »
I think Ne. CCW training requirements are fair, except for the cost, it should be less expensive.

Oh sure now you decide the training should be cheaper. Just my luck after taking the class the instructor decides the cost should be less.
Just kidin ya Shawn. You did a great job and taught me alot. Thanks.
Mike

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Offline quixnet

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2010, 04:01:32 AM »
Though I really like him, I just couldn't disagree with Sen. Christensen more on this one. Do we really want a large number of CHP holders out there in our future with little or no knowledge and a serious lack of training. Some of the students that we see are down right un-safe when they first come to us. Seldom do they have a clear understanding of the laws in general much less know when lethal force is justified and when it is not. Rarely do they have a clear understanding of the level of responsibility required when carrying in public etc etc etc.... Carrying a firearm in public and all if its ramifications has little to do hunters safety training.

Application Form
List your firearms experience:

"I've been around guns all my life"  (translated.... 2500 hours playing Grand Theft Auto or watching gun fights on tv growing up)
"
"Hunters Safety when I was a kid"

"I'm an avid duck hunter"

CCW training maybe the only training most of us ever get. It's designed to protect a new CHP holder from his/her own ignorance. I hate to be the bearer of bad news for some but some bad guys have had training. How will the new CHP know what it is they don't know? How can we be sure the new guy knows how to interact with law enforcement both in a regular trafic stop or in a life changing critical incident and so on?

A lack of knowledge and preparation for carrying a concealed firearm may get the new CHP holder, a family member or an innocent bystander injured or killed. I'm the last person that would want to prevent some one from having the ability to defend themselves. But what good is it if you don't know what you are doing and you end up unintentionally hurting someone innocent or yourself. Yes we have our 2nd ammendment rights but we also have a right to a one way trip to prison and financial ruin if we make a mistake. It would be interesting to hear Mr. Massad Ayoob's take on our discussion here.

 I think its more a matter of priorities. For example some firearm owners will buy a fairly expensive firearm but dont think spending money on a simple safe to keep it out of the hands of children or unauthorized adults is a priority.

We have a responsibility to ourselves, our loved ones and the general public when it comes to building and maintaining our skills and knowledge of the use of firearms for self-defense. These skills are perishable, we should take every opportunity we can to train and continually strive to improve on our knowledge and skills. We would be foolish to think that our rite to carry concealed firearms could not be seriously diminished or lost if enough of us screw up out there and give the antis and the media what they want.

Our credibility as permit holders is important! Good training often requires time and money. Do we really think we are doing anyone a favor leaving it up to everyone to just figure it out? Will they train if they are not required to? Christensen said ?common sense? would dictate that people obtaining handguns to carry would obtain or have the proper safety training. Many come through our CCW courses with little or no prior training or experience. As is the case now, quite a few permit holders will not even bother to practice once in awhile at the range.

I wonder if new permit holders having less invested in training, certification, etc. would have the same respect for our still fairly new rite to carry in Nebraska? Would they have any idea or even care what it took to get it past. If it required little effort or expense, would they care that much if they did something to loose their permit. What they do out there in the public's eye will reflect on all of us as permit holders. We've been fortunate so far.

These courses are often what cultivates interest in further learning. They get a taste of what opportunities are out there for further training, sport shooting, NFOA assocation etc.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 05:12:57 PM by quixnet »

Offline quixnet

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Re: Should gun permits be easier?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2010, 04:20:56 PM »
This will look real impressive on the back of our no guns no money cards...

As a Nebraska
 Concealed Weapon Permit Holder:

?   I have passed state and federal background checks for violent crimes and mental illness.

?   I am at least 21 years of age

       What do you know about your other customers?

« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 04:26:11 PM by quixnet »