What is the 9mm Luger?

[Jay]

The 9mm Luger is one of the most widely used and available cartridges in the world. It can also be called 9 X 19mm, 9mm Para (Parabellum) and 9mm NATO. While there are less popular 9mm cartridges that are not interchangeable with this round, most of the time when someone is talking about a 9mm, the Luger is what they are talking about. The 9mm is often hotly debated as to it's effectiveness for personal defense, but the fact of the matter is it has been successfully used for many years throughout the world in both self defense and military applications. The affordability of practice ammunition, relatively low recoil, wide availability, capacity, and large array of loads make this such a popular round. For more information, check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_mm_Luger_Parabellum

[Hatchet1961]

Yeah but its so little and leaves little holes. Just about every US service man wants a .45 ACP.

[Hatchet1961]

On a slightly different tack, here are the various 9mm cartridges:

- 9x17 = 9mm Kurz = 9mm Short = .380 ACP = 9mm Corto = 9mm Browning. Bullet diameter = .356",
            weight is typically 87 to 95 gr.
- 9x18 = 9mm Makarov. Bullet diameter = .364", weight is typically 95 gr.
- 9x18Ultra = 9mm Police. Bullet diameter = .356" (used in some Walther pistols. Do not shoot this in your Makarov).
- 9x19 = 9mm = 9mm Parabellum = 9mm Luger= 9mm NATO. Bullet diameter = .356", weight runs from 115 to 147 gr.
- 9x21 - civilian version of 9x19, used in Italy and other countries where military calibers are banned.
- 9x23 = 9mm Largo = tons of names (http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge). Bullet diameter = .355"

If you want to have some fun next time you go to buy some ammunition ask for some 9x19 and watch there faces.

[iiranger]

Little changes much. When I was young the debate ran, if you want to practice a .45 offer SO much more... It does, but more to handle... If you are short on practice, you are better off hitting with the less powerful but easier to handle 9mm in one of its many, many forms. Many, then, were available surplus, CHEEEP.

Outdoor Life rammed this home for me with an article on/by rabbit hunters, Michigan I think, with concern about sleeping black bears. Author carried a .357 Mag. Ruger. Companion carried a 9. Luger? Of course they disturbed a bear and had to shoot it out. Skinning the bear they found the .357 had penetrated through the body killing the bear, for sure. The 9mm slugs were all in the fat under the skin. !!

The other was in the Rifleman. Seyfreid, I think, was in the Canadian army. They were in winter battle dress. Side arms were the .38 S&W Webley revolvers. There was an accident. A soldier was shot with a revolver. They hurried him to medical. Turned out he was hit in the heavy leather belt around his middle. Bullet did not penetrate. Found under the belt. !!

Then there are the law dogs who say that .25's and .22's are good for softening them up for the fist fight to follow... ??

[SeanN]

Thread necro, apologies.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with 9mm for defense against 2 legged animals, as long as you choose the right load. The Speer Gold Dot 124 +P or the heavier 147 gr loads are both excellent self-defense loads and expand very well in flesh to create large wounds. They aren't a whole lot smaller than similar .45 hollow point ammunition.

Don't get me wrong, .45ACP still puts larger holes, obviously, it's a bigger round. However, the advantages of 9mm are greater ammo capacity (in Glocks, .45ACP only gets 13 rounds, 9mm gets 17), easier recoil for generally faster follow-up shots and a lot cheaper to practice with. Heck, even the defensive ammo is a lot cheaper. The good .45ACP loadings were costing me about $1/round in the defensive stuff. You can pick up 500 rounds of 9mm gold dots for $275 shipped to your door.

More info on handgun calibers and ammo selection here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

[Ronvandyn]

When I got back into the gun buying phase of my life about 3 years ago I passed up quite a few different 9mm’s.  I had one (Walther P-38, former German Poletzi weapon, should never have sold it) and loved it, but was looking for something different.  I knew I wanted a concealable gun as I had plans to get my permit and none of the weapons I had at the time (not including the .25acp Raven I still own) were  suited from a concealment standpoint.  Sure, I could tuck that .25acp into just about any nook or cranny you can think of, but let’s face it the .25acp is a pretty lousy personal defense round.  Last ditch, just before I start throwing shoes, maybe (I have big feet), but its small and slow and has less penetration than a 22LR.  Beside the rounds are expensive as heck!

I settled on the 40S&W as my round of choice and went looking.  OMG there are a lot of guns out there!  And every person who sells them has an opinion of every single one, and few agree on anything.  40S&W, quite good stopping power, not going to eat my wrist to practice with or my wallet, more rounds in a mag than a .45 yet fewer than a 9mm, a good round given all the choices available and after ignoring most of the opinions I was given. 

I eventually stopped in at a local pawn shop and found the one I wanted.  Small, 40S&W, not real expensive, and as ugly as my grandmothers dog.  Perfect.  I still have it, it’s my primary carry weapon, but I still occasionally mix in the PK-380 I have or the P90DC (drags my pants down, but I like knowing its there), but that .40 is most always within reach. 

IMHO the point is to make a hole.  Large or small, fast or slow, and as many as necessary, but make a hole.  They can all do it (maybe not the .25acp, but it’s a cute little thing), and even if it does not do everything you want it to do at least you went down fighting.  Of course I would prefer that they went down, but we don’t always get what we want. 

[OnTheFly]

Yeah but its so little and leaves little holes. Just about every US service man wants a .45 ACP.

That is not a fair comparison.  The military can not carry hollow point bullets.  Only full metal jackets.  If they could, they would probably find that an expanding 9mm would make nearly the same size hole as a non hollow point.

Fly

[sidearm1]

When I want a good laugh at the Gun store commandoes wanting to sell the big 45s and 10mm because all it takes is a hit in the finger to put them down, I simply say what about the 9mm in civilian dress.  I then get the "a 9mm does nothing but make them mad, you need to buy a man's gun".  I then follow this up with:  OK, lets stand 15 yards apart, I will shoot you with my 9 X 19 124 +p.  Then when we get done, I will buy any gun you can go over and pick up for me.  So far no takers.  Remember the 9 X 19 has been putting people down since 1908.   A loud miss never stops anyone.

[SeanN]

When I want a good laugh at the Gun store commandoes wanting to sell the big 45s and 10mm because all it takes is a hit in the finger to put them down, I simply say what about the 9mm in civilian dress.  I then get the "a 9mm does nothing but make them mad, you need to buy a man's gun".  I then follow this up with:  OK, lets stand 15 yards apart, I will shoot you with my 9 X 19 124 +p.  Then when we get done, I will buy any gun you can go over and pick up for me.  So far no takers.  Remember the 9 X 19 has been putting people down since 1908.   A loud miss never stops anyone.

This is true. A fast miss isn't worth anything, either is a .45ACP hitting someone in the finger. ALL pistol calibers require good shot placement. The only weapons that don't are grenades and other explosives. Even 12 ga shotguns (despite popular belief) WILL MISS if you don't aim them properly and will NOT reliably disable your target if you shoot them in the arm.

You need to rely on physiological incapacitation, NOT psychological. Psychological factors are so widely varied from person to person that it is completely insane to believe that just because you shot someone they'll stop fighting you. You need to make it so they CAN'T fight back, regardless of the effort they put into it, the mental discipline they possess, and/or drugs they're on.

However, I always disagree with the "I wouldn't want to get shot by X" argument. Well, I wouldn't want to get shot by a .22LR. That doesn't mean I'd advocate it for self-defense use. I don't even want to be stabbed with a needle.

People that say that 9mm is completely ineffective are either using the wrong loadings (ball/FMJ ammo for self-defense use is FAIL), haven't seen any ballistic testing results, or are just spreading gun show/gun shop myths.

[Rodney Moorhead]

I love the 9mm. 

I once bought some cheap ballistic jelly and shot it with a factory 9mm 124 grain hollow points and then with .45 230 gr hollowpoints.  This was Federal Ammo.

Anyway the wound channels were not all that much different.  They in fact scared the bejeebers out of me.  I don't think a bad guy is going to know the difference if he was hit two times with a 45 or a 9mm.