Copper Plating

[unfy]

3.3v and 5v power supplies at decent amperage can be had fairly cheaply ($5-$15).  It's something I'll be keeping in mind when upping bullet counts if I feel there's a power limitation.


As seen in the previous pictures, there's crud on the 'staples' that make the contact to the lead.  Not entirely sure what's going on there or how to clean them easily.  While they're sturdy enough, they aint super duper strong.

Also a fun note, the plastic fork/knife/whatever handles I was using ... don't like acetone .


Still need to come up with a bullet prep "solution" (whether if it's physical or 'pickling').  I'll start pondering ways of safely working with acids that's as idiot proof as I can come up with.


Haven't really come up with a decision for attaching copper plates to wiring yet (that would make connect & disconnect easy for disassembly & cleaning).  Decently sized copper clips seems like the easiest solution, but those usually aint cheap.

Something using copper washers, a bolt, and wing nuts might be easy, I dunno.  Even soldering some copper washers to regular clips might work out.  I'll look through the plumbing section of hardware stores for inspiration (lots of weirdly shaped copper pieces around there).  If I trusted it, simply running a copper wire down the side of the pvc and let the copper donor plate "push" against it might even be good enough... but that seems to leave things to chance.

If i do something where it's:


__      <- copper plate bent to apply pressure against side wall
  |
|/  |
|___|



I... dunno.  Maybe.  I'll have to look at stuff and fiddle.

I'm basically wanting to be able tear down and reconstruct the plating stuff easily.  Take it apart and throw it in a big bin, and reassemble it easily.  It's a desired goal for the project (means that it's easy to work with and not fickle... and can be stored easily).


Continuing to cut some sections of pvc pipe each night.  It's annoying to do without a band saw heh.... so... spreading it out while pondering.

[00BUCK]

Found the answer to my dumb question - disregard this post.

[unfy]

So, walk into Menards today for a Valentines Day gift to myself (see my forum post signatures).... expecting to spend $40 and get out of there.

$125 later.... RAWR.

Ended up picking up a couple tools, so it's not that bad.  Still frustrating.

Another 5 foot section of 3" pvc pipe.  10 foot is a good bit cheaper-per-foot, but kinda a pain in the ass for me to deal with.

3.5" hole saw and associated arbor.  A drill bit for metal just to make sure I don't mess up bits I already have.  Some wire crimper things for terminal lugs (i typically deal with electronics, not electrical).

2' x 2' x 1/2" (??) piece of plywood to make thing to hold cells in place.

Some 1x4's to frame it in, including some 1x2's to help frame... although thinking about it now, this might not be the correct framing solution for limited tools I have.  We'll see.

Some more 1x4's for what I think be used to hold the metal stuffs for clothespins.  Not going to go with a "lowering" mechanism just yet.

Six 2-foot pieces of 3/8's inch rebarb... just in case i decide to go that route for the clothespins.

Six 4 foot pieces of galvanized fence straps.  About 1/4" by 1/2" by 4 feet.  Basically used for terminating chainlink fence I think ?  Was cheaper than the metal materials in the welding area.  Anyhoo, cut into three of them in half (~2 feet each), these will be the power bus bars for the copper plates.  The other 3 cut in half is also an option for the clothespins (instead of rebar).

For s&g, also picked up a 6 terminal (12 stud) terminal block, some C crimp on wire terminals.  Dunno if the terminal block will serve an actual purpose.

Also some O ring crimp on wire terminals for use with the copper plate crimp things connection to power bus bar.

Lastly grabbed a few 4 packs of some regular stainless/aluminum clamps ($1.70 for 4 ?).  Given their shape and size, and that they have a nut/bolt wire attachment ... they actually might do nicely.  Kinda weird, but given their clampping mouths, I think it'll work.

Looking at copper stuff in plumbing - it's all copper plated which is useless for donor plate hook up (it'd just strip the plating off if submerged).  There were some copper washers in the nuts/bolts area, but none were fender washer style so ultimately useless.  There was some copper stuff in the electrical area, but it was over priced.


edit:

Tonight i'll start penciling in everything in the wood to see how it looks.  Am hopeful!

[skydve76]

I hear that construction sites are a good place to get copper, as well as AC units. 

[abbafandr]

Do you actually find time to hold down a full time job

[unfy]

I hear that construction sites are a good place to get copper, as well as AC units. 

Har har ... not a meth head.

Speaking of copper....

The roll of flashing I picked up was 6" by 10'.  That gets me 20 feet (240 inches) x 3 inches of copper donor plates for the plating cells.  Each cell takes 9.5-10" of copper flashing.  So... I can only get about 24 cells out of the $35 roll.  Will have to pick up a second roll once I break over 20 cells at a time.  Granted, since I'm steeling only a little bit of copper per bullet, each plate should last a long time.

Oh, 2' x 2' piece of plywood is 36 cells for what it's worth (one every 4 inches).

Speaking of wood... of course it starts snowing after I have a truck bed full wood and gotta spend a few more hours at work.  Grrrrrr...

[unfy]

Do you actually find time to hold down a full time job

Reloading (and !!!SCIENCE!!!) and job take most of my time hehehehe.  Am quite stoked to get the cell-holding-framework all built.

I imagine I'll hit a power problem and need to pick up a different power supply (and not one found locally sadly... but it'll still be cheap).  I'll prolly also need to test it as-is and see if my voltage controller is required or not.  It'd be kinda nice if it wasn't, I don't think what I've built can handle the possible high amperage I'll be needing. 

Although, if you assume 10A per square foot....

10A for 144in

Surface area of a cylinder that is .40in wide by .50in tall is 0.88in.

10A / 144in = N / 0.88

10 * 0.88 = 144 * N
(10 * 0.88) / 144 = N
8.88 / 144 = 0.062

So I need 0.062 amps per bullet.

At 36 bullets for the 2' x 2' cell thing, that's 2.22 amps.

May not be a power problem, I dunno.

[unfy]

As is usually the case, drawing it out on the piece of wood makes for an interesting situation heh.

Perhaps it's just electrical engineer background, but a half inch seemed a whole lot bigger in my head than it does on wood.

Power bus bars at 1/2 inch wide will be interesting .. given that it puts them as a 'perfect' fit between cells... which aint cool.


Yeah, not happy.

5x5 instead of 6x6, this will yield ~ 1.25 inches between stuff.

[unfy]

wood framing for cells mostly built.  picked up the wrong hole saw stuff, will have to grab a proper thing.

been a busy weekend with other stuff (friend having heart bypass surgery).

the move to 5x5 cell orientation is a bit curious concerning even power flow, but given the size of the galvanized thingies, it should do okay.  5x5 means there are 4 rods feeding 5 rows/columns... which doesn't spread otu power perfectly evenly.

for those with any electrical background, the galvanized whatever isn't a problem concerning resistance and stuff.  its basically so thick / big that it's only 0.5 ohm from one end to the other.  also given it's size, the power concerns should be moot.

if i have to backup and punt, can always use the copper tubing.

i've got... either 12 or 14 more holes to drill in metal for the base of the frame (power bus bar.... i've got one half drilled but messed up and need to decide if to keep or toss, prolly toss)... and the 25 holes for cells.  then it's 16 wood screws to secure the plywood to the frame and 16 bolts for the bus bars.

At the moment I'll skip some concerns about circuit length concerning the bus bars ...  can always use some wire to make sure they're all equidistant if need to.

Haven't put any thought into clothespin hanger stuff yet.  want the base built and then i'll figure that out.

[GreyGeek]

I hear that construction sites are a good place to get copper, as well as AC units. 

Especially by those who shop at the Five Finger Discount Stores!

[unfy]

Got hole saw stuffs proper like, cut one, yay.

Need to wait until wake up before finishing off all the noisy drilling/cutting stuff.

Tomorrow night, the base should be 95% assembled (or completed).

Then it's time to figure out how wanna do the clothespin rods etc.  Prolly just some 1x4's with notches cut in'em.

[unfy]

Tonight should be near final assembly of the base.

Holes cut:

[bkoenig]

Hey Unfy,

Have you seen this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

Casting boolits with copper mixed into the alloy.  Sounds like you can push them to about the same velocities as jacketed.

[unfy]

bkoenig: i'll take a look at it... seems interesting.  Just as a starting point - copper melts around 2000F.  Far below the boiling point of lead... but still... erf.

Wood frame cell holes sanded out and base is assembled.  Power bus bars are temporarily attached.  Started working out power feed diagram stuff (25 cells, 16 points to attach wires... don't come out any kind of pretty / even).  Power distribution / even feed shouldn't be a problem though.  Was just wanting to be OCD about purty heh.

I'll be cutting wire and crimping on ends tonight to get all of the base-frame wiring done.... this should finish the base in it's entirety (unless I decide to put a thin coat of poly over it.... will need to sand a bit more first, though... and it'll be sloppy poly of an assembled product rather than individual pieces that are then put together).

No pictures yet, I'll get pics when done tonight.


edit: Looked up some stuff.  From Lee, custom molds run $175 tooling setup plus the cost of each mold blank they mill for you.  $26 or so for each 2-cavity mold, don't recall about the 6-cavity molds.  So minimum cost of getting a Lee undersized mold is prolly $220ish including shipping.

Haven't talked to the chuck hawks swage die folks yet to see how much they charge for custom swage dies (for undersized).

Eventually, I really will need to insist on getting undersized molds or something...

[unfy]

bkoenig:

Looking at just the first page, it sounds quite cool.  Might have to get our own thread going here for it.  Too bad I don't have a second melting pot for testing this stuff out... but... do have campfire stoves that use the lil propane tanks... can just pick up a cheap & thick pot

For a synopsis for those not wanting to read: use copper/tin affinity to get copper to "dissolve" into tin at a relatively low temperature rather than melting point..... then add this mixture to lead to make your final alloy.

Where's all those old tin cans when ya need them .

Pure tin looks to be expensive... $18 a pound ?

The babbits are a little cheaper... but... not by much for the higher tin content ones.

I'd have to re-look at the electrical sections at hardware stores, but I don't think there's much in the way of tin wires anymore... i think it's all aluminum now.  Will need to confirm.


edit to avoid post count bloat: kinda hurt myself shoveling snow at work, going home early and prolly not fiddling with copper plating stuff tonight.

[unfy]

Okilidokili...

The frame is done as far as I can tell outside of some wire->clips for individual cells... whatever... I'll be heading to hardware store to pick up some cheap speaker cable or something for it.  14ga wire is just too stiff.

Ran through continuity tests just fine.


Top view of the frame, with a single cell sitting just to show plywood positioning.  Power bus bars are visible and have some of the O-ring terminals in place just to make sure I had enough etc.




Underside view of the frame.  The wiring mess is... well.. in an effort to try to keep all circuit paths equidistant.... heh.  There's a single bolt running out the side (near bottom of pic) to hook power up to.

I probably could have done this a bit cleaner, but whatever.




As mentioned at the start, I'll be picking up some cheap speaker wire or lamp chord wire or something for the power bus -> clips for anodes.  Really stiff wire would end up causing the clips to cant and other problems.

I'll possibly also look into using different o-ring terminals (smaller).

Next up - the clothespin scaffolding.

Oh, for what it's worth a friend pointed out the 'durrrrr' as to why the staple grabby things look like ass on the clothespins.  Copper, steel, in an electrolyte.  Durrrrrrr of course it's gonna corrode fast heh.

I picked up some hair pins made out of copper and some other stuff to experiment with if I have to.


edit to avoid post bloat:

Picked up some speaker wire.

Also went ahead and grabbed a $45 (on sale) cheap miter saw from Menards.  I've still got a lot of PVC to chop up, and at $45 .... that's a fine investment compared to the time it'd take to cut it up manually.  Not to mention the amount of back pain it'll save me from given my current condition.

Sadly, the hardware store folks are starting to recognize me .

Also - concerning bkoenig / bronze boolits: actually, if ya eat a fair amount of canned food... instant source of tin

[unfy]

last bits of base frame power stuff done.  this would be ~5 inch speaker wire with a larger and smaller O-ring terminal on opposite ends.  one end attached to power bus bar, the other to mediumish the 'charging clamps'.

8 1/4" miter saw isn't quite big enough to cut pvc in a single go, requiring two cuts to make it happen.  blade shroud / protection thing also kinda gets in the way.  so... pvc is cut although not as pretty as would have liked.  Sanded edges a bit to help out (as well as remove burrs).  Will be gluing test caps to'em shortly.

gonna go kinda more complicated than originally wanted with the clothespin holder stuff.  picked up a couple 12 inch side drawer slides or whatever they're called (haven't had coffee yet)... will cut them down and use as guides.  will use 'something' for hard bottom stops, but also use some gate latch things for the  upper stops that should be easy enough to undo / lower.

Still haven't built the scaffolding for the clothespins....


edit to avoid post bloat (feb 25th 6am):

Since no major news, just an edit.

All of the cells are constructed.  Takes a while to get price tag stickers off of so many test caps.  I'll have to quickly sand down some edges of the glue stuffs later.  If I ever start to make kits to sell, will have to at the very least set up a better way to hold the pvc so can make cleaner cuts.  Although just opting for a 10" saw would go a long way as well heh.

Eyeballed the drawer sliders, should work fine.  I'll have to work out measurements next.  They'll cut down in size just fine, too.

I still need to figure out how I wanna handle the clothespin scaffolding in general.  I'll prolly just build it and deal with improvements if I feel the need later.

[unfy]

Back pain is reducing... can hopefully get back to this project shortly.  I have a general plan for the next bit of wood work.

Something I just kinda started pondering.

Is there a way to aluminum plate something ?

The idea is if it's possible to take an off the shelf bullet mold and coat it in something (say a spray or paint or plating more aluminum on to it) to get the reduced cast bullet size that'd be wanted.

Some kind of paint / spray that has to be replaced every so often might be workable.

A way to add aluminum to the mold via plating or something would be preferred possibly... assuming it doesn't come off due to heat differences with the lead etc.

Which, btw, makes copper or another material probably a no no due to thermal expansion differences.

Just a 'hmmmmm' thought.

[rudy]

Back pain is reducing... can hopefully get back to this project shortly.  I have a general plan for the next bit of wood work.

Something I just kinda started pondering.

Is there a way to aluminum plate something ?

The idea is if it's possible to take an off the shelf bullet mold and coat it in something (say a spray or paint or plating more aluminum on to it) to get the reduced cast bullet size that'd be wanted.

Some kind of paint / spray that has to be replaced every so often might be workable.

A way to add aluminum to the mold via plating or something would be preferred possibly... assuming it doesn't come off due to heat differences with the lead etc.

Which, btw, makes copper or another material probably a no no due to thermal expansion differences.

Just a 'hmmmmm' thought.

Just from a quick google search, it doesn't look like aluminum electrodeposition is something you would want to do in your apartment.  It can't be done from an aqueous solution, this paper says you need molten salts to do it: http://jmst.ntou.edu.tw/marine/1/31-37.pdf Other google results showed success with ionic liquids which are just salts that are liquid at some arbitrary temp, usually around room temp.  Cool stuff, but I don't think you would be able to find these kinds of chemicals.

If you want to add some thickness to your die, I would suggest nickel electrodeposition.  There is a lot of nfo out there about it.  I have done some nickel electrodeposition on stainless steel rods for some of my research and it had good adhesion and mechanical strength.  Getting the thickness right on the die would be tricky, though, I would think...

Edited to add: I am assuming the molds are steel, I've never used one.  Is there a certain reason you would like aluminum?  Are molds aluminum?

[unfy]

Rudy:

Yup, poured over google results as well.  Some experimental ionic room temperature solutions that aren't available to simple joes like me.... and vacuum electrostatic ... and funky high temp salts etc.... yeah... no aluminum plating for me.

Do note that 'molten salt' doesn't necessarily mean 200-2000 degree salts... just salts that are liquid heh.

Lee bullet molds are aluminum.  They heat quickly, are easier to temperature adjust (ie: damp on a sponge to cool), and seem to balance temperature better than some of the other molds I've tried.  IE: iron / steal molds require more work for a non-mechanical bullet molding operation etc.

I'm weary of chrome or nickel due to thermal expansion differences (ie: wouldn't the plating just come right off when exposed to the 600-700 degree lead ?).

Something of interest to note --- automotive store & high temperature paint for exhaust / heads / blocks / etc.

Now, I *SUCK* using a rattle can so I would have ZERO chance of getting an even coat...

But it seems like a possibility ?

I have no idea how a high temperature ceramic based paint would handle metal thermal expansion ?