Copper Plating

[66bigblock]

The copper bars in electrical (8 foot long, 1/2 inch in diameter?) appear to be the most economical price on 'raw' copper from a hardware store... was a lot of copper for $10-$15.  Would need a method to flatten it into sheets. 

If you are talking about the round "ground rods" that they sell in the hardware store?  I am pretty sure that those are copper plated - NOT solid copper.  I dont think flattening one out to get copper will give you what you are looking for.  I have not cut one apart, but I scrap a little copper wire myself and I know that those rods weigh way to much for the selling price to be pure copper.  If they were, I could buy them for $15 at the hardware store and sell them to the scrap yard for $30!!

66bigblock

[unfy]

If you are talking about the round "ground rods" that they sell in the hardware store?

I didn't cut one while I was there, and I was figuring they were ground rods yeah.  Price did seem off for pure copper, yes... but it  looked to be proper, prolly just a real thick plate.


For grabby thingies... I think nylon or poly or some other plastic bar is prolly best bet.  Something a bit more robust and normal sized (ie: a bar) than the utensil handles.

[altheman2]

No all the "Ground Rods" i know of are copper plated not solid copper

[bkoenig]

Another alternative....powder coating bullets.  I'm SERIOUSLY interested in this.  They just look so purty.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/395802_Powder_Coating_Cast_Bullets_.html

Sounds like a lot of work for handgun, but for rifle bullets it has a lot of potential.  I have a toaster oven sitting in the basement that's never been used...

[whatsit]

Another alternative....powder coating bullets.  I'm SERIOUSLY interested in this.  They just look so purty.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/395802_Powder_Coating_Cast_Bullets_.html

Sounds like a lot of work for handgun, but for rifle bullets it has a lot of potential.  I have a toaster oven sitting in the basement that's never been used...

I have a friend that does powder coating for a living. CrossLinc Custom Coatings (https://www.facebook.com/CrossLinc) is the name. Jeremy is a great guy. I bet he would answer any questions you had about the process or materials.

[unfy]

on page 4 of the powder coat thread, i'm intrigued.

now, i suck with a rattle can... and i have no idea if i could possibly get an even remotely consistent & balanced powder coat... but... i am VERY intrigued so far....

30 pages to go on the thread....


On copper plating... i picked up an 8 foot piece of pvc molding / lattice board.  1/4 inch thick, 1 1/2 inch wide.  Cut it into a 3 inch by 3/8's of an inch little strip... it has possibilities.

[bkoenig]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to try the powder coating.  I'm thinking stick them upside down in holes drilled into a metal sheet, then coat them.  That would ensure the base is coated, but leave the lead tip exposed so it can expand.  Some of the guys shows pictures of coated bullets they'd smashed flat with a hammer, and the powdercoat is still intact.  It's tough stuff, maybe even tougher than copper jackets.

I'll have to start a new thread when I get everything lined up.

[unfy]

Just a pic of the clippies as they currently exist.

[unfy]

Hey unfy,

Got a $15 1.2 -30 v, 5 amp adjustable power supply with fan. Have you read the bullet plating paper on CaswellPlating website. The writer was using a kit, but there is no need to spend the money on a kit, but his bullets looked good. The trick to even plating seems to be low voltage, low current. I intend to build a holder out of a plastic cutting board.

$15 ? Wow.  Where'd you get it from ?

I've read lots of stuff on Caswell's site.  They tend to approach it from a non-mass-production-reloader-guy angle though.

Their kit usually involves a pickling solution (probably an acid...) ... and their CuSO4 bath might have additives to it that might be appropriate for "professional copper plating" (including stuff for PCB's and stuff).  Brightners and other such things.  Not sure what the contents of the brighteners and other additives are... no one seems to discuss them.  Part of making money I suppose.


I believe my home made variable DC power supply is a bit under powered for what I'm trying to do.  I'll have to fiddle with it some more, and I'll have to also try flat out ~12v 2amps to see what I get.  Do note that the plating folks have their own idea of what "low voltage" and "low amperage" means.

I think my variable power supply on last attempt was ~1v at 0.2 or 0.3 amps.  Coat quality was rubbish on 10 bullets (but does fine for 3).  The coat quality and timing also suggests it's a power issue not just a 'didnt leave them in long enough'.

As far as 'own terms' - for them, low voltage could mean anywhere from 1 to 16 volts, and low amperage could be anywhere from 1.0 to 30.0 amps.

A plastic cutting board is indeed a decent idea for holder stuff, maybe.  If ya could draw something on paper and post a pic of it ?  Or ?


Also... while I'm having more success with the individual cell approach - building it is a lot more labor intensive, and although the clothespins and hanging rod stuff I have built is easy to work with... it's technically more labor intensive than just "dumping lead in a basket".

Rudy had mentioned a link which you may recall or have seen already as well:

http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/shop_setup/plating_barrel/index.html

His rotating barrel setup probably better than what I did.  It should also be easy to build what he's got (sans motor of course).  I prolly noted in my response that zinc plating nuts and bolts and stuff is one thing, but attempting to get a good even coat on bullets is another story altogether.  Tumble basket plate can prolly work just fine, I dunno.

I will note, with a tumble basket plate approach, ya prolly want to put some ridges in the basket to make sure bullets tumble more "violently" kind of.

[DangerousDrummer]

Here is what I have found so far about brighteners.. Still don't know of a suitable substitute, but brighteners with low voltage and max amperage of 2 amps seem to be the magic combination. The brightner is attracted to the point of highest conductivity (which would allow for the greatest stacking of metal) and act as a blocker, which forces the material elsewhere until a new place of high conductivity develops, which then attracts the brightner/blocker. Lack of a brightner is what causes the "fingers" or hairs of plating matrial to build up.

The explanation I found...
"In a well controlled plating bath, the carrier supports the formation of a black skin on the anode material which serves to regulate the diffusion of copper ions into the electrolyte. The material is also attracted to, but not co-deposited on the cathode (work piece) forming a layer (film layer) in close proximity to the surface that controls the rate of copper grain growth.

The brightener works within the film layer to control copper deposition on a microscopic level. It tends to be attracted to points of high electro-potential, temporarily packing the area and forcing copper to deposit elsewhere. As soon as the deposit levels, the local point of high potential disappears and the brightener drifts away. (i.e. brighteners inhibit the normal tendency of the plating bath to preferentially plate areas of high potential which would inevitably result in rough, dull plating) By continuously moving with the highest potential, brightener/levelers prevent the formation of large copper crystals, giving the highest possible packing density of small equiaxed crystals which resulting in smooth, glossy, high ductility copper deposition.

Mark Brelsford of QMS in Toronto, ON likens the action of the carrier to the function of a doorman at a theater who regulates the flow of people into a theater but doesn't really care where they go once inside. The brightener would then be the ushers who politely lead each person to a vacant seat until the theater is uniformly filled."

I hooked up the power supply a little while ago, works great. Now to calculate how many bullets 5 amp will plate.

Here is where I got it.
www.eimodule.com

[GreyGeek]

Here is where I got it.
www.eimodule.com

This one?
http://www.eimodule.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=62

[DangerousDrummer]

Found it! Polyethylene Glycol, is a plating leveler. Available at Walmart as a laxative for about $6. There is something else called Janus Green B which will require more research. Found these references in an engineering student paper at a university.

[DangerousDrummer]

No, this one

http://www.eimodule.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=39

[DangerousDrummer]

Janus Green B is an organic dye commonly used to stain mitochondrial cells. I knew I had heard of it but didn't know where. Biology class was a long time ago!

[DangerousDrummer]

So Polyethylene Glycol and Janus Green B are inhibitors which slow the process, this makes sense when we know that slow is also acheived by low voltage and low amperage. Hydrochloric acid is an accelerant! I am not sure that we want any accelerants. The paper on bullet plating on Caswell said the bullets were platd 24 hours, which in my thinking is very slooooow. Sulfuric acid is an organic acid and is the carrier, and vinegar is also an organic acid. I think this explains it pretty well.

"The absolute minimum formula for a Copper plating bath is a Copper Sulfate solution with some Sulfuric acid. In addition to this, one can add inhibitors and levelers such as Polyethylene Glycol (PEG), Janus Green B, or a brightener. Each of these slows the rate of plating at peaks on the surface of the Copper, leading to a smoother plated surface. The other type of additive is an accelerant, which helps the throwing power of the solution and increases the rate of plating. Hydrochloric acid is the only accelerant that has been tested."

[unfy]

Here is what I have found so far about brighteners.. Still don't know of a suitable substitute, but brighteners with low voltage and max amperage of 2 amps seem to be the magic combination. The brightner is attracted to the point of highest conductivity (which would allow for the greatest stacking of metal) and act as a blocker, which forces the material elsewhere until a new place of high conductivity develops, which then attracts the brightner/blocker. Lack of a brightner is what causes the "fingers" or hairs of plating matrial to build up.

I have never visibly seen fingers.  Some of the earlier posts and some bullets do get a crystaline appearance of left in the bath too long or possibly around the bend between ogive/flat part of the TC bullet.

Having not used any brighteners or levelers I can't attest to their suitability.

Janus Green B looks to be $20 a bottle.

Poly-glycol might also be cheaper as this or something like it:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=686&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PLA&gclid=CNP79tPwr7YCFQvnnAodgWEAWA

Dunno what else it might contain, but it's probably "more concentrated" than what you'd find in the medicine aisle.

I hooked up the power supply a little while ago, works great. Now to calculate how many bullets 5 amp will plate.

Earlier in the thread I mention the formulas used.  You need to pick an amperage per square foot and go from there. 10-30 amps per square foot seems pretty common, so 5 amps might get you half a square foot of coverage ?  I know it's square relation not linear, but whatever.

Figure out the size of your bullet, for my 401 180gr or so i kinda winged it with a cylinder with a half inch diameter and half inch height.  Divide 'possibly 72' by that number that should be a theoretical max for '1/2 a square foot'.

Depending on how you're retaining the bullets in the CuSO4, ya might have to include surface area of the retention mechanism.

Here is where I got it.
www.eimodule.com

So... a door bell or some other AC transformer into your power supply ? Cheap and workable.

[unfy]

Edit:

actually...

http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=369129&catid=184260&aid=338666&aparam=goobase_filler&device=c&network=g&matchtype=

Looking at it... it's 238g, it claims to have 14 treatments, active ingredients are claimed to be 17g of PEG, 238/14 = 17. 

So... medical stuff will work just fine.  Yay.

[DangerousDrummer]

Door bell might not be enough watts and is 24 volt. PC power supply is good, especially since you want to match the input close to the output voltage. In other words, 5 volt in for 2 volt out is perfect and much better than 12 v in and 2 v out as the bigger the differential between input and output, the more heat the regulator has to displace. I tested with a power supply used for an old laptop that died. I need to dig out a regular PC power supply. There is a uTube video on tying the different wires together, and which wires are needed for power on. Creates a multi volt high wattage (200 or more) precision power supply. That coupled with the variable power supply, and you've got a unit that will work as good as an expensive lab power supply. Still need to get some big wire wound resistors for current limiting. I imagine if it's bubbling, it is too fast, so too much current.

I have been thinking about the bullet holding and have an idea. Going to drill a plastic cutting board with the required number of holes for the corrct current draw. Feed romex through the holes stripped back just enough to set hollow points on nose down the way I did the PC bullets. I will then make an anode board out of another piece of cutting board, but it will be set up to hold pieces of short copper pipe that are in line with the cathode/bullets. Place the cathode board in the tank first, then place the anode board on top of the cathode board with the bullets in the pipes. Some alignment pins to keep the boards from moving around and causing a short and distances should be optimal for plating with each bullet the equidistant from it's anode.

Tomorrow, I will get the materials for the solution, some copper pipe caps should be perfect for the anodes. I will start with a single bullet first in order to not waste materials in case I have to change anything. I still have to cast my 458s yet, but I got 150# wheel weight lead (mixed) yesterday, and then it started raining. I have heard hot lead and water don't mix so tonight was devoted to more research.

[unfy]

I like the approach you're taking. I think.  Not sure, but I think .  Curious how it comes out.  As always, post lots of pics.  The thought of placing everything then pouring the CuSO4 in is completely opposite of the approaches I've taken and I'll admit to being intrigued.

You could test with the copper tubing , but if you can find it in local hardware stores... check the roofing area for copper flashing.  It's relatively inexpensive and offers much more surface area and is easier to work with.

Concerning power supplies - you sound like you're doing DC <> DC ... the power supply you liked already had a AC -> DC rectifier apart of it.  Are you talking about taking the AC transformer stuff out of a PC power supply ?  Or is this two different power supply options you're discussing ?

Also -- the 24 hour coat ya mentioned -- if it produces awesome coats, then it might be feasible.  24 hours to coat, say, 100 bullets is a tad extreme though.  I suppose you could just set aside 10pm as 'change out copper plating stuff' though.

[unfy]

The more I think about the cutting board with holes and wire sticking through it, the more I like it.  I'm really curious how your wiring layout under neat and pics of everything turns out (let alone what you do for the plating itself and how it turns out).

For me, this wouldn't necessarily be for cast bullets - mostly because I'm not a fan of drilling into lead with a case trimmer.

With that said, it'd either be swaging or a hollow point mold.

Concerning hollow point molds, I've never cared for the screw in hollow pointers... but... this:



I don't particularly see why someone with a drill press couldn't create something like this out of a cheap Lee mold.  Maybe brass vs the rolled steel thermal expansion (instead of aluminum) ?    I think I've seen someone else make one of these (either pics or YT, can't recall).

So... a rolled steel rod in with two legs attached for a |= shape.  Wonder how to go about attaching these legs without a a welder or being able to cast the |= shape yourself.   Hmmmm.


My own plating setup has been semi-boxed up just to get it out of the way.  I need to water test all of the cells, figure out how to patch cells that leak, and then try again.  I wanna get the powder coat jig completed first, though.