Author Topic: New training videos (Read 3003 times)

sjwsti · « **on:** December 13, 2011, 10:32:43 AM »

We got together to train last night and we decided to video some FOF drills demonstrating carrying your semi auto unchambered.

The participants skill levels varied. All had advanced level shooting skills. One participant (who is a very accomplished competition shooter) had minimal hand to hand and one hand weapon manipulation training. We worked some basic defenses with him prior to going full contact but, in his words, "that all went out the window once I was getting hit, and all I could think about was getting to my gun". This meant he took more abuse than some of the other participants. But this makes sense because he has practiced shooting much more than his hand to hand skills. A 4 second "El Presidente" looks cool on the range but didnt help him out here even a bit. By the end of the night he was well on his way to becoming an all around fighter and not just a shooter.

We used dummy rounds so that at the end of the drill we could verify that a round chambered. You will see that in at least one drill it didn't. Here are a few of the more than 50 videos we took.

- Shawn

Jsabbw · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:24:57 PM »

Shawn,
Great videos. Good to see you showing people how to deploy the weapon under stress! One handed manipulations are very rarely practiced yet almost always the malfunctions will be solved in a CQB situation. Thanks for sharing. Stay safe.
Jason

JTH · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2011, 06:04:32 PM »

Quote from: sjwsti on December 13, 2011, 10:32:43 AM

One participant (who is a very accomplished competition shooter) had minimal hand to hand and one hand weapon manipulation training.
[snip]
A 4 second "El Presidente" looks cool on the range but didnt help him out here even a bit.

I'm thinking if he actually has a 4 second El Presidente, he looks considerably better than merely "cool" while on the range.

(A 100% on El Presidente nationally by someone shooting USPSA Open division, GM class, is still slightly above 5 seconds.)

Yep, carrying without a round in the chamber is a great way to make sure that your gun is useless in a self-defense situation. And also yep, there isn't a competition game out there that helps in the hand-to-hand parts of CQT situations. (Pretty much need a hand-to-hand specialist to develop a curriculum for that. Gun games don't cover that sort of thing!)

dcjulie · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2011, 06:58:35 PM »

My question regarding the first series of videos is why were those being "attacked" not trying to create distance in order to end the onslaught of strikes? In the last video (where they had a round chambered) it was obvious that they were trying to create space to get to their weapon. While I agree that carrying without one chambered is not a bright idea, I do not think that in a hand-to-hand situation that one should only focus on trying to draw their gun. Moving to create space allows one to get to their weapon, or to get away, whichever is needed.

Dan W · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2011, 07:22:30 PM »

Shawn if you use the YouTube - share link -options - long link the videos will auto embed

sjwsti · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2011, 07:43:06 PM »

Quote from: dcjulie on December 13, 2011, 06:58:35 PM

My question regarding the first series of videos is why were those being "attacked" not trying to create distance in order to end the onslaught of strikes? In the last video (where they had a round chambered) it was obvious that they were trying to create space to get to their weapon. While I agree that carrying without one chambered is not a bright idea, I do not think that in a hand-to-hand situation that one should only focus on trying to draw their gun. Moving to create space allows one to get to their weapon, or to get away, whichever is needed.

The difference was the role players. In the first series of attacks the role player has a quite a bit of experience in this type of fighting and he wasnt allowing us to gain distance. Trust me, most of us were trying. He came forward as fast as we tried to move. He outweighs me by at least 40lbs and I couldnt easily push him off (unlike the second role player) In that case the only option was to close with him, get out of his power range, tie him up and work to presenting the weapon while continuing to defend the less powerfull strikes.

If you watch a boxing match what do fighters do when they are overwhelmed by strikes? Do they try to back up and gain distance or do they close the distance and clench?

The second role player was less aggressive and that made it much easier to gain distance and present our gun.

There are situations were you wont be able to create distance due to the violence of the attack. Be prepared for those as well.

- Shawn

dcjulie · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2011, 08:27:35 PM »

Thanks for distinguishing between the two different scenarios. That was not clear in the video presentations, so it looked more "staged" for the second round.

bkoenig · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2011, 09:47:45 PM »

Good videos. A few things I took away from this:

1. Carrying without a round in the chamber is a bad idea.
2. Even with a round in the chamber, a strong/skilled unarmed opponent could do some serious damage before you draw if he gets in close.
3. For close combat knives are nasty. I think I would rather grapple with an opponent armed with a gun than a knife. It gave me the heebie jeebies seeing the potential damage the knife wielder was inflicting. I've always heard there are no winners in a knife fight, it just comes down to who bleeds out first.

sjwsti · « **Reply #8 on:** December 14, 2011, 10:49:53 AM »

Quote from: bkoenig on December 13, 2011, 09:47:45 PM

3. For close combat knives are nasty. I think I would rather grapple with an opponent armed with a gun than a knife. It gave me the heebie jeebies seeing the potential damage the knife wielder was inflicting. I've always heard there are no winners in a knife fight, it just comes down to who bleeds out first.

Your absolutely right. When I was training with Henk Iverson he was teaching the knife as a primary weapon when up close. It wont jam, it never runs out of ammo, you cant grab it and leverage it out of my hand (knife "takeaways" don`t work with real knives and dedicated attackers), it can create a much larger wound channel than a handgun bullet and it will only quit when I get tired.

- Shawn

Lorimor · « **Reply #9 on:** December 14, 2011, 06:38:41 PM »

Scary stuff! Probably would be better off carrying a hunk o' lead pipe vs an unloaded handgun. Faster to pull out, more "THUNK!" power.

Roper · « **Reply #10 on:** December 18, 2011, 08:32:05 PM »

It amazing to see how fast someone with a knife can inflict serious damage.

y0diggity · « **Reply #11 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:22:36 AM »

I agree with the knife replies here. That was pretty disturbing, to be honest. In one of the knife scenarios, I doubt the victim would have ever gotten to his gun in time the way the attacker was hacking him up.

Definitely gives me a new respect for the weapon and makes me even more cautious.
Thanks for these videos, they're awesome.

bullit · « **Reply #12 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:30:20 AM »

Dennis Tueller figured out the knife issue almost 25 years ago......i.e. "The Tueller Drill"

skydve76 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 22, 2012, 10:49:06 PM »

2nd video, last scene. You racked the gun off his butt crack. Good job. Whats that move called? ASSissted racking?

sjwsti · « **Reply #14 on:** January 23, 2012, 10:38:42 AM »

Quote from: skydve76 on January 22, 2012, 10:49:06 PM

2nd video, last scene. You racked the gun off his butt crack. Good job. Whats that move called? ASSissted racking?

Now thats funny.

Actually Its me on top trying to saw Mikes head off. He improvised and worked with what he had. We just happened to record it. I figured it would elicit a few clever comments.

- Shawn

OnTheFly · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2012, 09:34:58 AM »

Very informative videos Shawn. I don't want to discount the threat of a knife. As everyone else has noted, the attacker is doing a LOT of damage before the gun can be presented. However, my question would be how many potential attackers that we could possibly encounter would have this mindset of getting in close and aggressively making multiple slashes and stabs? I would bet that the mill of the run punk would take more of a Hollywood stance and make a few jabs while also trying to keep their distance from you. While I think this is more likely, these videos definitely present a good scenario if attacked by a more brave and intent criminal.

Since you work closely with the police, do you have any insight into the knife attacks that occur? Are they more of the close quarter intimate nature or a standing thrust and perry?

Fly

JTH · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2012, 10:41:10 AM »

Quote from: OnTheFly on February 07, 2012, 09:34:58 AM

Very informative videos Shawn. I don't want to discount the threat of a knife. As everyone else has noted, the attacker is doing a LOT of damage before the gun can be presented. However, my question would be how many potential attackers that we could possible encounter would have this mindset of getting in close and aggressively making multiple slashes and stabs? I would bet that the mill of the run punk would take more of a Hollywood stance and make a few jabs while also trying to keep their distance from you. While I think this is more likely, these videos definitely present a good scenario if attacked by a more brave and intent criminal.

Since you work closely with the police, do you have any insight into the knife attacks that occur? Are they more of the close quarter intimate nature or a standing thrust and perry?

Fly

Actually, if the criminal has already decided to attack you (in other words, he is just plain there to kill you), it tends to be a blitz attack with multiple stabs one right after another. If he hasn't decided to attack you, it tends to be a threat posture. (What kind depends on if it is a robbery-type or territorial-type situation.)

If it started as a territorial situation then goes downhill, it tends to turn into repeated wild slashing. If it started as a robbery and goes downhill, then you tend to be back to committed multiple stabs, with the occasional slash.

Standing back and doing uncommitted single movements--not so much. (Which is why a lot of martial arts schools teach VERY bad knife defense techniques.)

The Hollywood knife duel just doesn't happen. (Because, among other things, criminals aren't interested in fighting you. They either want to rob you or kill you, but fighting isn't anywhere on the list.)

For some thoughts on what actual knife situations are like, take a look at:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

More specifically:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/proamateurknifer.htm

(When you go to read that, bring a cup of coffee, some snacks, and a pen and paper. There is a lot of information there, much of which should be thought about on a significant level.)

Note: Non-LEO occurrences and LEO occurrences tend to be different in this respect, by the way. LEOs also get a separation into "wild slashing" and "committed stabbing" but the background and lead-up before those points tends to be very different compared to non-LEOs.

OnTheFly · « **Reply #17 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:49:40 AM »

Quote from: jthhapkido on February 07, 2012, 10:41:10 AM

Note: Non-LEO occurrences and LEO occurrences tend to be different in this respect, by the way. LEOs also get a separation into "wild slashing" and "committed stabbing" but the background and lead-up before those points tends to be very different compared to non-LEOs.

I guess I did not explain myself on the question of police reports. I was wondering if the police had any information of non-LEO vs. non-LEO knife fights and how they pan out. I would think that the BG w/ knife vs LEO encounters are much different scenarios. Though data from the police may not be of significance since they may not know about how many times a thug did the Hollywood thing and made a few threatening motions/jabs with a knife. I imagine the police mostly get involved in the knife attacks where it was a very aggressive situation as simulated in the videos.

Don't get me wrong, I don't take knife wielding thugs for granted and the thought of getting slashed as demonstrated in the video is pretty unnerving. My point is that you have varying levels of thugs. From Wanna-be to full out violent criminal. However, I would doubt that most of them have any training like the experienced guys in the video. Sadly, what a lot of people know about using a knife or self-defense in general is what they have "learned" from Hollywood. You know, combat rolls and all that. I know I can not count on it, but I am hoping that is the case with most of these emerging criminals. To put it simply, if I don't see they BG coming and he has the kind of determination demonstrated in these videos, I am flat out screwed (to put it kindly). I will fight, and I may survive, but I will be bleeding like a stuck pig and in serious need of Shawn's EMT services.

I guess I had better make sure my awareness is maintained.

Fly

OnTheFly · « **Reply #18 on:** February 07, 2012, 01:09:26 PM »

Quote from: jthhapkido on February 07, 2012, 10:41:10 AM

For some thoughts on what actual knife situations are like, take a look at:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

More specifically:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/proamateurknifer.htm

(When you go to read that, bring a cup of coffee, some snacks, and a pen and paper. There is a lot of information there, much of which should be thought about on a significant level.)

Very interesting read. A few things I took away from this. They basically group knife fighters into two groups...Professional and Amateur.

The Amateur would be a territorial type where they pose to intimidate you. If you don't head the warning it could escalate into a knife fight.

The Professional category is further broken down into Predator and Criminal. In the Predator sub-category, the persona intends to do you harm. There is no avoiding the knife fight. The other sub-category, criminal, presents you with the ability to avoid the knife fight. Either do as they say (give them money or be raped), or defend yourself while they are in the threatening posture. You could punch them if you saw an opportunity, but as they say a punch is a poor defense against an armed attacker. Or the better option, which I would prefer, is to draw and be ready to immediately use your firearm. Of course, drawing the gun would have to be an opportunistic event. Get the gun tangled up in your cover garment and the thug is going to filet you.

The thing that made me happy to read is that the Predator type attacks are extremely rare. In general, you would of had to wrong the person in some way. They gave examples of sleeping with their wife, crossed them on a drug deal, etc.

Thanks for that link.

Fly

sjwsti · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2012, 01:28:57 PM »

Sorry, I dont have any statistics for LEO knife encounters.

What JT says is quite accurate. There are generally two types of knife attacks, posturing for intimidation and flat out blitz murder attacks. Since none of us has a crystal ball, have a plan for both.

As far as what training do BGs have? Look at some videos of knife attacks in prison. This is were they are training, and these types of attacks are fast, violent and bloody. A person really doesn't need much training to stick something sharp into you, just commitment.

In my experience many of the homeless we deal with have knives on them. There are many Mexican immigrants in this area and they come from a culture of using knives as weapons. And as I said before its one of the most used attacks in prison.

I have treated quite a few victims of knife attacks through the years. The majority have been non fatal, the few that were fatal were all from stabbing wounds. I have seen victims with terrible slashing injuries still ambulatory and fully able to continue fighting if they had to. Keep this in mind if you are using a knife for defense.

So be prepared. Work some non committed and committed attacks with a partner and a couple of training weapons. Work it standing and then work it on the ground. It is certainly something you want to experience in training, and not for the first time on the street.

- Shawn