UNFY: Time to Share .357Sig Reloading Experiences

[SemperFiGuy]

UNFY:

On July 3, 2010, you said:

I'll get into loading 357Sig within a month or two,

So----By now, you will have accumulated pages and pages of good .357Sig reloading information to share with your Fellow NFOA Forum Members who are also dopey enough to shoot this caliber.

You are invited to post all of your information on:
>Bullets,
>Powders,
>Primers, and
>Cases
In all the many combinations thereof.

No Holding Back.    Please don't say that you've been messing around with bullet plating and have never gotten around to reloading the .357Sig that you Promised.

I've read every blinking forum entry on .357Sig reloading that's on the web.   Nothing consistent whatsoever.    Nothing at all for Win231, which is the only handgun powder I know  (Don't say HP38 is same stuff.   It is.   I know.]    So now I'm afraid to reload anything .357Sig, having fallen in love with having use of my fingers over the years.    All that talk about bullet setback and poor neck-gripping friction, whatever.

So....Drop that bullet plating stuff for a while and give w/the Sig.

C'mon:    Give It Up.   

We are Waiting.


sfg

[unfy]

ROFL... but... sorry to disappoint.

Yeah.... I was supposed to get into 357sig, I know .  I really liked the numbers it produced on paper (as in whitepaper / technical stuff)... it seemed like a slightly under powered 357mag round but within a semi auto frame... etc.

A self-defense charged .40 does pretty decently... so... I haven't really bothered to move to the 357sig.  What I had was good, so I put money elsewhere for the time being hehe.  I still would like to, and have a fair amount of 357sig brass waiting to be reloaded, too .

To get into 357sig reloading, I'd need to get an appropriate barrel for my P229.  $150-$200 ? Die set: $60-$75 ?  That's $200-$250 I don't have to spare at the moment .

Looking at the cartridge and the fact that it's a full length resize and other such stuff... I can perfectly understand the bullet setback problem some people experienced.  I dunno if anyone offers a crimp die for it... but that'd surely help.  One note I did see was that using a powder that required a high weight charge would help stop setback (since it'd nearly produce a 'compressed load').... which... made sense.

If I did start playing with 357sig, I'd really like to also like to use it as an excuse to try out Win Autocomp powder as well.

If I ever do start fiddling with 357sig I'll make sure to keep some posts going on about it.

re: copper plating

heh.  i'm *this* close to having a working plating setup and i can *taste* it.  tastes like penny, coincidentally.  need to spend $35 (which i don't have either heh) on some copper flashing as well as some more tinkering prolly.

[SemperFiGuy]

All Right, then.........UNFY

Like the Little Red Hen said, I'll do it myself.

While you mess around with that plating stuff.   [Get the right bullets plated out to .356 diameter, and we'll stuff 'em in the end of a .357Sig cartridge case.   Test 'em out; see what happens.]

Most of the forums lean toward a .3555 or .356 diameter bullet for .357Sig.   For secure friction seating.   Helps prevent setback.

I've got a .357Sig die set.    Never used it yet.   I think they're RCBS carbide.   Hafta check to be sure.

Also got some empty brass.

So---I'll go neck-size about a dozen and see what happens.   Yes.  NECK SIZE!!!!

Because the chamber of my Glock 33 has already custom-sized the spent cartridge cases to its own self.    [Could never understand why any respectable bottle-neck cartridge shooter would want to full-size a cartridge case if it was going back in the same chamber all the time.    Just stretches brass to no good purpose.]

Then I'll try some of my .355 diameter 9mm plated 124gr Berry's Bullet in the neck, just for size.

What is really needed is a beveled-base bullet like Rainier's 124gr FP, so that the neck belling step can be bypassed.    But I don't have any.    The curse of reloading is that you have to buy at least 50 to test 10.    Or buy 1 full pound to use 80 grains.   And so on.

Here we go.

[Or maybe I should just go buy a .40S&W barrel and the heck with it.]   
Got cans and cans full of .40S&W reloads.


sfg

[unfy]

If ya need extra brass, lemme know.  I live in south omaha, near 39th & Q, work in Bellevue near 370 & Kennedy.  Might have some hundred mixed head stamp to donate.  beware: some are nickel plated so you'll have to fish those out yourself heh.

Can... you actually neck size 357sig ?  I thought all of the die sets were full length size only ?  And I agree -- first batch of brass gets full length sized (unless you shot it yourself), then subsequently everything should be neck sized hehe.

I recall someone talking about using their thumbs and pressing down on the rounds on a table to see if it backseats at all.  I don't recall how much pressure they tried to apply (which all seems subjective if done without tools anyway).

I might have some berry's .356 that i use for 357mag plinking, i'll check.

When you test fire your rounds, if ya can have a friend watch or a video made... it might help as well.  Improperly seated rounds tend to also produce fireballs 

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re: copper plating / sizing -- well, assuming i can actually get things to plate, then yes - eventually i'll need to order some custom molds that are 6 thousandths of an inch smaller in diameter etc .

-------

re: 40's -- i'm kinda curious how a 357sig feels in my pistol.  it's been a long time since i put several hundred rounds through several firearms and different cartridges in order to pick a carry weapon.  40's do have a snap / pop to them (although not that much in this p229 equinox) ... wonder how 357sig fares...

-------

i definitely wanna hear how your reloading goes.  given the tiny bottle neck cartridge and such, i'm sure you're gonna hit lots of fun little gotchas ya normally wouldn't see hehehe

btw, why isn't this in the cartridge reloading section ? hehehe

[20nickels]

I don't reload for the sig but want to and have done lots of research.  There is a guy on the web named Reloaderfred who has lots of experience with this cal,  Find him. 
Why the 357 Sig over the .40?  It shoots much flatter and has virtually all the positive properties of it's hero the 125 gr 357 magnum in an auto platform.  When shooting reactive targets like pins, steel, etc. it's sheer power really shows. 
What I've read and believe to be true and other reloading tips;
Nevermind the bottleneck, it's not an issue.  Just run them through the size die like any pistol caliber.  You can 1st run the sig through a carbide .40 S&W die for initial sizing and then to the all steel bottle neck die.
Get a chronograph.
Branch out from Win 231.  Research a powder burn rate chart and pick something with a slower burn rate to get the most out of this cartridge.
All .355 bullets will not work for this cal.
Hornady HAPS look like a great bullet for this and are available in bulk.  Montana Gold also has one.
Oh, and get a chronograph.

[SemperFiGuy]

Get a chronograph??

I Don't Need No Stinking Chronograph.    My $19.95 Casio digital watch with the itty-bitty nerd engineer calculator buttons works just fine!!!

Actually, that chronograph advice is good advice.   Every serious reloader/shooter oughta have one.   Better yet:   Have a shooter-buddy who has one.    And a boat.

So---You'd recommend the CED Millenium II???   An old Oehler 43?   Last I heard, Oehler was making a run of their 35P's sometime early last year.   Never followed up on it to see wot's wot with that model.

sfg
PS--I sized some .357Sig brass last nite.   Might hafta eat my words on using neck sizing.   That short, fat case is tough to neck size, unlike a long, slender rifle case.    Soon as you get into the case neck, along comes the big, fat cartridge body, right up into the taper.   Oh, well......just a few more degrees on the lever and the whole thing is re-sized anyhow.

[20nickels]

I'm a hypocrite.  I don't have a chrony but I've been reloading for years and just had my 1st Oh, **** experience when I clocked some new loads on a friends recently.  If not for the robust design of the firearm things could have gotten ugly.  Oh, and I was going by the book.  It's now on the grocery list and is cheap insurance.

As you probably know,  the Sig case is more than a necked down .40  The case web was beefed up and OAL is dif.  which will make sizing difficult.  Run them through a .40 carbide sizer 1st.  When I do a reloading session I always drop my cases in a large zip lock bag and hose them with One Shot red label,  then shake to coat.  It's easier on you and the brass, it only takes a minute.

[unfy]

hmmmm just to add this... which has been said countless times and hinted at by 20nickels -- don't try to convert a .40 to 357sig.

webbing is different, and after you get the neck & shoulder put in, a .40 is too short.  a full 10mm case might be able to be sized correctly, but i dunno if the webbing and other important bits of the case head will be correct.  i'll do my best to dremel a 357sig and 40 in half and get pics to further illustrate any differences if they're noticable.

re: chrony

i don't have an outdoor range to try one at, and i think just about all of them really want bright sun light to work correctly.  the bullet hole here in omaha just doesn't fit that bill ... and I don't think the omaha pd would take kindly for me going down into the train track ravine to try out the chrony

inexpensive chrony's can be had... which prolly do just fine if you're not doing lots and lots of testing and need the remote read sensor etc. 

I typically just keep an eye on the brass and function of the firearm to make sure i'm avoiding an over pressure situation.

[SemperFiGuy]

20NICKELS:
No Guilt on lacking a chrony.

We'll just convince UNFY that he needs a chronometer as part of the bullet plating process.    He's so impassioned w/plating that he'll find a way to beg, borrow, or........whatever.     Then we'll borrow his.

Recommendation for UNFY:
The CED Millenium II has an IR (infra red) sensing feature which can measure the bullet velocities and other parameters in the dark (big selling feature for the Ninja market, I guess.)

And Yes--.40S&W straightwall cases are NOT for making into .357Sig bottlenecked cases, because they are a bit shorter and every stinking bit of that neck length is needed for clamping the bullet.    As it is, the SAAMI spec for neck length on the .357Sig is only 0.150 inches.   Not much grab there.

My Hornady .357Sig seating die will crimp the case mouth for a better bullet bite.   But--if the .357Sig is headspacing off the case mouth, then crimping technique becomes a factor in headspacing.


sfg 

[unfy]

I know a year ago when I was looking at it, there was a big debate on if it headspaced off the mouth or the shoulder.

Apparently here's a neat article on the subject:

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar25.htm

And seems to unquestionably prove it headspaces off the shoulder.  Scrolling down ya can see the bullet gauge thing which sticks out way beyond the mouth of the brass etc....

re: chrony

For something like a chrony, I have no qualms in sharing within reason once I obtain one .  Although at $100-$200... I guess any serious reloader should have one.  And as far as begging -- pfft.  I buy my own schtuff - but hunt for ideas for the project at all times hehehe.

re: CED Millenium II

IR?! neat!  $200 at midway too!  others seem to have some kind of incandescent indoor lighting attachments as well.  so... there are options out there for indoor shooters! yay!

[maanbr]

OK guys I'm gonna catch some for this I know but I have necked .40sw into the 357sig many times.  I started reloading this caliber when brass wasn't as plentiful and cheap as it is now.  Had so many 40's, it is the way I did it.  Have never ran into an issue. It does end up slightly shorter than an actual sig case but once again no issues.  I use the Lee die set and they form well and are really slick with a spray of Hornady lube.

Lee makes a crimp die for 357sig and it works really well.  I have rechambered a single round multiple times without a hint of setback.  I have played with several powders including W296.  Found some data and had some extra powder I got for cheap.  It works ok and fills the case up for sure.  That being said my main powder is Hodgon Longshot.  Very high velocity and low pressure.  I'd have to go back and look at my records but 124's run 1450's fps, and the 147 are 1250ish if I remember right.

For bullets the Ranier 124gr FP work well for target loads.  The 147gr Rem HP with the half looking ball on the base is an excellent pin load.  The 147 HornadyXTP will put a coyote down really quick too.  I have some of the light weight 90gr ones loaded up that shoot ok that I was going to do a penetration of steel test with vs a buddy and his tok.  I have not chrono'd this one but I'm guessing close to 1700's.

Unfortunately I don't get the chance to shoot my own personal weapons much anymore so I have not kept up on all the new reloading gear and components for a few years now.

[unfy]

maanbr:

Any extra details on the 40->357sig conversion ? Case life ? gotchas ? etc ?

[JimP]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, even though the .357 SIG has a bottlneck, it still headspaces on the case mouth..... If this is so (and I think it is), then this:

It does end up slightly shorter than an actual sig case but once again no issues.

can not be conducive to accurate and reliable ammo.

[SemperFiGuy]

Here is the Ultimate and Final Word on the .357Sig Case Mouth-vs.-Shoulder Head Spacing Controversy.

You Read It Here.

Normally, any bottleneck case--rifle or pistol--headspaces off the shoulder. 

However, Like any Real World Situation, there's the Official Cartridge Design specification and there's What Actually Happens in the Chamber of Your Pistol:

OFFICIAL CARTRIDGE DESIGN SPECIFICATION  [ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE:  SAAMI  www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/357%20Sig.pdf:]
The SAAMI .357Sig cartridge case drawing clearly shows the headspacing off the cartridge mouth, with these dimensions:
    0.865"   Minimum
    0.877"   Maximum
According to original design intent, the .357Sig DOES NOT headspace off the cartridge case shoulder.

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD OF THE PISTOL CHAMBER:
In your pistol and mine (Glock 33) the cartridge case actually headspaces off whatever it hits first.
If Long Case Neck, Short Shoulder:         Cartridge Mouth
If Long Shoulder, Short Case Neck:         Cartridge Shoulder

It's even possible for the cartridge to headspace off BOTH, if the dimensions are just right for the case to do so [Best Possible World/See Below.]

If you're reloading your own fired .357Sig brass, the cartridge case is then nicely custom fire-formed for the chamber of your own .357Sig pistol.    In that particular real-world situation, the reloaded cartridge will now certainly headspace off the shoulder when used in the same chamber.   And if it actually headspaced off the cartridge mouth as a new cartridge, it now headspaces off both shoulder and case mouth.

That's the story.    You heard it here on the NFOA Forum.   So it's gotta be true.


sfg

[maanbr]

No reliability issues have come to light in all the ammo I have reloaded. I don't shoot well enough to notice any accuracy problems between the two cases ;-) out of my G31.  Who knows maybe my Lee FL die is perfectly matched to my G31 chamber?  These are my findings, others may experience something other.  With the availability of 357sig brass now if somebody is just starting into it that would be the logical way to go of course.  In my case it worked out well.

One bullet I have loaded and ran into issues with was ranier 147 gr.  They would key hole and be all over the paper even at 7yrds.

[maanbr]

Here is a pic of two random rounds of each cal case taken from the buckets.  The 2 on the left are 357sig cases.  The 2 on the right are .40sw cases reformed to 357sig.  The length of the cases are: 357sig=.857  .40sw=.845

When I get a chance I will rechamber each multiple times and do a measurement each time.

[20nickels]

Who has cheap bulk brass for the Sig?

[unfy]

maanbr: thanks for the awesome real world pics and info.

20nickels: i'm sure if ya look around auction sites you'll find plenty.. annnd there's always andrew at centerfirebrass:

http://centerfirebrass.com/products-list/357-sig/

[maanbr]

Took some more measurements and came up with some interesting results as I never considered it.

Don't have any fancy equipment to actually measure my chamber, just a standard caliper.  I took the rounds pictured above and dropped them into my field stripped G31 barrel and measured frome the back of the case across the primer to the end of the barrel.  I figure this would tell me if there were length differences in how far the rounds are going into the chamber.

357sig case- 4.483"
40sw case- 4.480"

Here is the kicker.  I took a factory loaded 125gr speer gold dot and did the same thing to get an idea of what "properly loaded factory ammo" sits at. 4.476"

So the factory rounds actually have more headspace room in the chamber.  This got me wondering so I grabbed another 2 out of the bucket and measured.  It came out 4.477 with a sig case and 4.476 with a .40 case.  I'm sure if I grabbed a whole handful to measure I would come out with a wide sprectrum of measurements to the thousands of an inch.

I do remember before I reloaded the round I used to buy Georgia Arms Canned Heat and remember having a round  that was formed from .40sw.  I only saw that one, but I was not real particular looking at each headstamp.

Now for set back issues.  This surprised me as I have never checked it this in depth before now.  I chambered each of the pictured rounds multiple times.  The 357sig case did not show signs of setback until the 4th chambering.  It set back .001.  On the 10th chambering it went back to original measurement, but the nose of the bullet was starting to deform so I chalk it up to that.  All the way up to 15 chamberings it lost a total of .001 OAL.

The 40 case did not fare as well.  On the 1st chambering it setback .001.  Kept that length until the 4th time where it went back .005".  From there it went down really quick.  By the 10th chambering it lost .017".  Keep in mind the nose was deforming as well but could visually see the bullet setting back.  Just for the sake of my own info I kept going up to 20 chamberings. at 15 times it had lost .028" and at 20 times it had lost a grand total of .037".

So yes the .40 cases formed to 357sig do not hold the bullet as well and the .357sig in this limited experiment.  But I can tell you I will never rechamber a target load anywhere near this many times!

As said before, 40 cases will work for loading 357sig but with the amount of brass out there now it is not really needed and would be better off just getting the sig brass.

Whew, that felt like a long post!

[unfy]

Soooo... here's that ancient old thread.

SemperFiGuy: care to give out infos about your experience in 357sig after 6 months or so ?

PS, don't I owe you brass ?