Author Topic: AAR: Legal Aspects of Using Lethal Force (Read 2807 times)

JTH · « **on:** January 30, 2012, 10:44:35 AM »

On Jan 28th, I attended the Legal Aspects of Using Lethal Force class by Chris Zeeb and Nebraska CCW Training (http://www.neccwtraining.com).

Class started at 8:30am, and finished around 2pm. The cost was $85, and if you haven't thought about legal topics in your training, will be well worth your time.

Many people take CCW or Defensive Tactics courses, and learn a number of technique-oriented problem-solving methods for self-defense---but it is just as important that you understand the legal aspects of what you are doing. That way you don't step over the line from "good person legally defending themselves" into "person who committed felony assault and/or murder". (And that line is sometimes more difficult to discern than you might think.)

Chris gave an excellent overview of Nebraska law and legal precedent, including a number of specific examples for discussion regarding self-defense situations that went well, and those that went badly.

If your CCW or DT instructor doesn't talk about legality, you should take Zeeb's class. And even if they did, Zeeb's class will most likely add details that will increase your understanding of the law--and more importantly, make sure that when you defend yourself, you WON'T have to spend more time and money defending yourself in court. (Or worse yet, going to prison.)

Good class. Worth taking.

Lorimor · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2012, 11:19:33 AM »

Ditto!

armed and humorous · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2012, 11:30:20 AM »

Sounds like a good thing. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and I would hope and expect that Chris knows what he's talking about. On the other hand, if a good person does the right thing, they're not likely to get into legal trouble. Yes, it can happen, but I don't think it is a common occurrence. When it comes down to a do or die situation, I'm not going to be worrying about what's legal and what's not anyway. I'm going to do what I need to do to survive (hopefully).

bullit · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2012, 11:49:29 AM »

Having taken the class a second time in as many years....great course. I know this will tick some of you off, but I'd almost be in favor of a course of this nature and time length to be part of a CHP requirement. As a CHP instructor myself, there is not the time or ability to convey some of the critical points on the judicious use of deadly force. From what I see on this and other forums there tends to be a lot of wrong opinions and bad information out there.

Gunscribe · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2012, 11:54:59 AM »

Being able to intelligently articulate why you did what you did after the fact is extremely important. Zeeb's class gives you that incite. Having known Chris for a long time I recognize the knowledge and passion he brings to his students.

Anyone would be well served attending his classes. Think of it as an insurance policy for an unwanted situation.

Even if you were right some over zelous civil or prosecuting attorney can turn lead into gold.

JTH · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2012, 01:13:59 PM »

Quote from: armed and humorous on January 30, 2012, 11:30:20 AM

Sounds like a good thing. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and I would hope and expect that Chris knows what he's talking about.

Interesting phrasing.

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On the other hand, if a good person does the right thing, they're not likely to get into legal trouble.

Unfortunately, this is not true.

Even if it _was_, civil litigation in this day and age is not-quite-but-almost a given.

And, there is the assumption that "a good person" will KNOW the right thing---which is unlikely without actual knowledge.

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Yes, it can happen, but I don't think it is a common occurrence.

Then you should probably read more self-defense situation aftermath stories. Yes, plenty of people have no trouble. Other people----do. And in many cases, get themselves into trouble by not knowing the law.

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When it comes down to a do or die situation, I'm not going to be worrying about what's legal and what's not anyway. I'm going to do what I need to do to survive (hopefully).

I think I'm not going to be worrying about what is legal because I'll already know and have planned my defensive concepts based on that.

I personally prefer to know what I need to do to survive and not be sent to prison nor be successfully sued.

The problem with technique-oriented answers is that techniques solve only one problem while self-defense encompasses quite a few more than that.

I prefer that my thinking, conceptual planning, and pre-situation-level thinking be done prior to an actual self-defense situation, so that if something occurs, I already know the techniques to survive, along with the limits under what I must act to keep it self-defense, plus have previously already practiced effective communication and behavior for aftermath situations.

Self-defense situations don't end just because the bad guy isn't menacing you anymore. The part where you keep yourself out of jail keeps going on. Quite frankly, if information and practice create competency with situational aftermath, and aftermath is a significant issue from a legal and civil litigation perspective (which it is) one would assume that information and practice would be a good idea.

Merely my opinion. I note, however, that it matches the opinion of a significant number of lawyers, non-lawyers, LEOs, self-defense specialists, and DT instructors. (So much so that many law enforcement departments have actually set up specific procedures for officers in the aftermath of a shooting, for their protection, along with the protection of their departments.)

Many people don't know the difference between a self-defense situation and a fight. Similarly, many people spout "awareness!" as a necessity, but don't actually know what to look for. I say this because "self-defense" is about keeping yourself safe---which means knowing what is necessary to stay out of situations in the first place, deal with the situations you couldn't avoid, and handle the aftermath in a way that doesn't cost your life, livelihood, or freedom.

In my opinion, you need to know the before and after aspects, too. Just saying "I'll do what I need to stay alive" from many people means that they don't actually know. (I'm not saying A&H is this way, I'm just saying that many people who say things like that don't know things that they are going to need to know.)

NE Bull · « **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2012, 03:22:37 PM »

This Class is on my list!

RobertH · « **Reply #7 on:** January 30, 2012, 04:15:59 PM »

i took it too, with my brother. we both enjoyed it and learned a lot. and it isn't going to break the bank or kill you with endless boredom. i took my CHP with CZ as well, great teacher and great guy. and there were about 28 or 30 people in the class and Chris said he mostly gets about 12. so it was a packed class room, but great atmosphere.

next on my list is taking a class (not sure what or when) from Signal 88 and jthhapkido's Precision Response Training.

i did see a NFOA'er with a gray shirt and button, but never got to say "hi" and introduce myself.

armed and humorous · « **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2012, 04:32:23 PM »

I meant no disrespect for Chris or his class. My point was that there are people out there "teaching" things who don't really know what they're doing or how to teach. Some examples have been linked to on the forum. Given the amount of respect for Chris that I've seen on the forum, I would expect that he knows his stuff.

I'm sure you can find plenty of "good shoots gone bad" if you look for them. My experience has been that most of the good shoots I've read about did not result in charges or civil litigation, or if they did, the court found in favor of the shooter.

No disrespect intended, I understand why professional instructors would tout the advantages of training/classes.

RobertH · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2012, 04:58:52 PM »

A&H... no disrespect taken and i meant no disrespect either. i was just stating my 2 cents.

dcjulie · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2012, 05:11:32 PM »

I have not had a chance to post before now, but wholeheartedly agree that Chris' class was great! I am often amazed that Chris has the ability to take what could be monumentally boring information and make it interesting!

Knowing what NOT to do/say after a self-defense situation is crucial. I have seen several instances of a "good shoot gone bad" in and around our area. The final outcome may have come down on the side of the shooter, but he/she may have lost a lot in the interim -- money (for lawyer), job, house, family, etc. Having the knowledge before the situation occurs is just as important as having the physical training.

JTH · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2012, 07:30:59 PM »

Quote from: armed and humorous on January 30, 2012, 04:32:23 PM

I meant no disrespect for Chris or his class. My point was that there are people out there "teaching" things who don't really know what they're doing or how to teach. Some examples have been linked to on the forum. Given the amount of respect for Chris that I've seen on the forum, I would expect that he knows his stuff.

And so making comments about how people sometimes teach what they don't know right before talking about Zeeb's class (which you haven't attended) is then relevant or necessary? If you mean no disrespect, then perhaps you should watch your phrasing.

If you don't mean to link concepts, then don't state them together. If you have teaching issues, start a different thread.

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[snip]
No disrespect intended, I understand why professional instructors would tout the advantages of training/classes.

Wow.

Why, because that way we can fill our classes? Really?

I don't teach the class that Zeeb does, therefore I make no money from it, nor do I gain anything from advertising it for him.

And I find your insinuation that since I am an instructor, then I would say automatically that everyone should have training so as to boost my classes quite insulting---and rather ridiculous. When I _wasn't_ an instructor, it was my opinion that people should have training. Most people need it---as anyone who has worked as an RO at any sort of competition can tell you. (And anyone who has taught a state CCW class could tell you also...)

And while I am an instructor, the reason I suggest that people take this class is because I've done the research to realize that many people don't know the legal aspects, and need to do so.

Those that doubt should perhaps ask Massad Ayoob how many cases he has been brought in as a subject matter expert to help an innocent person. Perhaps ask Marty Hayes the same thing. Also ask Tom Givens. (Hint: the numbers are not small.)

People DON'T know this stuff---and they need to.

You say that it worked out all right if "the courts found in favor of the shooter" ---well, to get to that point, the shooter had to have months of worry, significant lost work time due to legal processes, an arrest record, and have paid significant amounts of money to a lawyer. And that doesn't count the civil litigation, which can be even worse. (Hint: you can be brought up on no criminal charges whatsoever, and STILL lose the civil case.)

I'm thinking I don't consider that a good thing, and again, would prefer to have the knowledge necessary to head that off before it begins.

armed and humorous · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2012, 08:39:17 PM »

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with anyone on here again. I don't tell others what to say or not say, and I don't like others telling me what I should say or not say. I'm just presenting a point of view like everyone else.

Seems like some people on here are still hell bent to just run other people down.

I'll be back when they are gone.

Gunscribe · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2012, 10:08:36 PM »

The sad thing is; "The ones that need training the most are the ones that deny they need it in the first place" -- (Gunscribe 2012)

justsomeguy · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2012, 10:15:19 PM »

Quote from: armed and humorous on January 30, 2012, 08:39:17 PM

I'll be back when they are gone.

Well........Bye.
(I know it's not the first time it's been said.)

JTH · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2012, 05:31:33 AM »

Moving back on topic---Zeeb's class is worth it.

(and no, it isn't boring)

sparky · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2012, 08:41:42 AM »

I will be taking this class, it has been on my list for a while now. Chris, will you be offering this again this year?

Lorimor · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2012, 10:00:13 AM »

Quote from: justsomeguy on January 30, 2012, 10:15:19 PM

Well........Bye.
(I know it's not the first time it's been said.)

Quote from: Gunscribe on January 30, 2012, 10:08:36 PM

The sad thing is; "The ones that need training the most are the ones that deny they need it in the first place" -- (Gunscribe 2012)

Ain't it the truth? Amazing what you don't know until you know it.

Lorimor · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2012, 10:01:15 AM »

Quote from: jthhapkido on January 31, 2012, 05:31:33 AM

Moving back on topic---Zeeb's class is worth it.

(and no, it isn't boring)

Great class! You just have to ignore the Glock salespitch is all.

dcjulie · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2012, 05:39:19 PM »

I didn't find the salespitch too harsh.

Of course, I used to be an XD gal, and now I am waiting for my Gen 4 Glock 35 to show up from Georgia.