Masaad Ayoob on encounters with LEOs while carrying

[OnTheFly]

I came across this video on YouTube featuring Masaad Ayoob talking about best practices for interacting with LEO during a traffic stop.  I was stopped last winter when I slid through an intersection right in front of an police cruiser.  I gave them my license, CHP, and vehicle documents, but I did not verbally state that I had a gun on me.  My thought was that I am not obligated to provide the CHP unless I AM carrying, so that should have been sufficient notification.  When the two officers (training officer and instructor) came back to the vehicle, the training officer informed me that I need to tell them I am carrying or I will be in violation of the statute.

However, Mas Ayoob suggests doing exactly what I did.  I'm not sure the Nebraska law is horribly clear.  It says you will "inform", but it does not say verbally.  Could handing the officer your CHP with your other ID be considered "informing" the officer or emergency personnel.  The statute says you are only required to present the CHP if the officer requests it, so would volunteering the CHP ahead of their request "inform" them? 

One scenario I thought of is when you have others in the vehicle who don't need to know you are carrying.  The officer may take it further buy disarming you, but it likely will just be addressed by the officer asking "are you carrying now", and you answering in the affirmative.  In this situation it may be less likely that your passengers will pick up on what is going on.

The other way I thought of dealing with it is handing the officer my documentation with the CHP on top and stating in a clear yet calm and subdued voice, "I'm carrying on my right/left ________".  I'm wondering if any non-gun people would even pick up on it.

69-2440. Permitholder; duties; contact with peace officer or emergency services personnel; procedures for securing handgun.

(1) A permitholder shall carry his or her permit to carry a concealed handgun and his or her Nebraska driver's license, Nebraska-issued state identification card, or military identification card any time he or she carries a concealed handgun. The permitholder shall display both the permit to carry a concealed handgun and his or her Nebraska motor vehicle operator's license, Nebraska-issued state identification card, or military identification card when asked to do so by a peace officer or by emergency services personnel.

(2) Whenever a permitholder who is carrying a concealed handgun is contacted by a peace officer or by emergency services personnel, the permitholder shall immediately inform the peace officer or emergency services personnel that the permitholder is carrying a concealed handgun.

(3)(a) During contact with a permitholder, a peace officer or emergency services personnel may secure the handgun or direct that it be secured during the duration of the contact if the peace officer or emergency services personnel determines that it is necessary for the safety of any person present, including the peace officer or emergency services personnel. The permitholder shall submit to the order to secure the handgun.

(b)(i) When the peace officer has determined that the permitholder is not a threat to the safety of any person present, including the peace officer, and the permitholder has not committed any other violation that would result in his or her arrest or the suspension or revocation of his or her permit, the peace officer shall return the handgun to the permitholder before releasing the permitholder from the scene and breaking contact.

(ii) When emergency services personnel have determined that the permitholder is not a threat to the safety of any person present, including emergency services personnel, and if the permitholder is physically and mentally capable of possessing the handgun, the emergency services personnel shall return the handgun to the permitholder before releasing the permitholder from the scene and breaking contact. If the permitholder is transported for treatment to another location, the handgun shall be turned over to any peace officer. The peace officer shall provide a receipt which includes the make, model, caliber, and serial number of the handgun.

(4) For purposes of this section, contact with a peace officer means any time a peace officer personally stops, detains, questions, or addresses a permitholder for an official purpose or in the course of his or her official duties, and contact with emergency services personnel means any time emergency services personnel provide treatment to a permitholder in the course of their official duties.

[Dan W]

Offering a permit only informs  the LEO that you have a permit. The law requires that you inform them that you are carrying a handgun.

The Nebraska Adminstrative code states:

019.02 A permit holder carrying a concealed handgun who is officially contacted by any peace officer or emergency services personnel must immediately inform the peace officer or emergency service personnel of the concealed handgun unless physically unable to do so.

I read that to mean that you must declare the presence of the handgun, not the fact that you have a permit

[OnTheFly]

Offering a permit only informs  the LEO that you have a permit. The law requires that you inform them that you are carrying a handgun.

The Nebraska Adminstrative code states:
I read that to mean that you must declare the presence of the handgun, not the fact that you have a permit

I think that is the safest interpretation, but I wonder if the argument could be made in court.  Of course, I don't want to be the guinea pig.

Fly

[bkoenig]

Offering a permit only informs  the LEO that you have a permit. The law requires that you inform them that you are carrying a handgun.

The Nebraska Adminstrative code states:
I read that to mean that you must declare the presence of the handgun, not the fact that you have a permit

That is my understanding also.

[metaldoc]

When taking my class the instructor related an experience a young woman who had taken his class had with an officer from the Lincoln PD.   She had her permit but didn't have a gun on her or in the vehicle when stopped by the police, so she didn't tell them she had a permit.  The officer ran her info and came back extremely upset because she hadn't informed him she had a permit and even after she told him she had no weapon, he was insistent she should declared having a CC permit.

Recently a friend of mine was stopped by the State Patrol for speeding.  He wasn't carrying at the time but still handed the officer his permit along with his driver's license.  The officer asked if he was carrying and he said no.  He asked the officer if he had been carrying if the stop would have gone differently and the officer said he would have just asked where the gun was and maybe what it was just out of curiosity.  Otherwise, no difference.

So, if we don't have a gun on or with us, should we tell them anyway to head off a confrontation?   

[bkoenig]

I have not had LEO contact since getting my permit, but personally I plan to always inform them whether carrying or not, just to avoid trouble.  I know it's not required if you're not carrying, but I see it as a courtesy to the officer. 

[HuskerXDM]

The law only talks about what to do while carrying.  However, when my brother and I submitted our curriculum to be instructors, Sgt. Loveless wouldn't approve it without some changes, including that we tell people to inform officers even if not carrying.  I don't think the law reads that way, but he's the only guy that reviews instructors so we play the game. 

[OnTheFly]

All good information, but the underlying point of my post was whether handing the LEO your CHP constitutes "informing" them.  According to Ayoob, it does.  I think the argument could be made in court because the law is pretty specific when you have to inform ("Whenever a permitholder who is carrying a concealed handgun...") and I can not find a definition of "inform".  The argument could be made that an action constitutes informing the LEO, and that is what Ayoob is saying in the video.  Again, I'm NOT going to be the one to push this.  I think verbal is the safest way to go, but I was thinking about my situation and whether I could have successfully convinced a judge that I had notified the LEO by handing them my permit when I was not obligated to do so.

Just some food for thought if anyone ends up in this dilemma and the LEO files charges against you.

Fly

[NE Bull]

The ONE (hmm come to think of it, two) time(s) I was not carrying and had an 'official LEO contact' I just handed the officer my DL and registration, but informed him of my CHP and that I was not armed at this time.  One asked to see permit and that I step out and lift shirt for his piece of mind. (then we talked shop as he wrote my warning)  The other just said ok, wrote out my 'fix-it-ticket' and told me to stop by the DMV on the way to the shop and get this ol beast tagged.    There is alot to be said about mutual respect.  As M.A. pointed out, comply with the officer and things SHOULD go smoothly. ( I know, we have all watched the videos and read the stories, but for the most part)
For the most part, the issue is not with the officers it's usually with the LE brass. 

[OnTheFly]

The law only talks about what to do while carrying.  However, when my brother and I submitted our curriculum to be instructors, Sgt. Loveless wouldn't approve it without some changes, including that we tell people to inform officers even if not carrying.  I don't think the law reads that way, but he's the only guy that reviews instructors so we play the game. 

I hear what you are saying HuskerXDM.  You are probably correct that being non-confrontational with someone who is the one and only roadblock to your progress is the smartest choice, but I personally would have a hard time going against what I know is correct.  The problem I see with that is that you are supposed to be teaching what is in your syllabus, and how do you do that when it is contrary to the law?  It seems that if a LEO were to monitor your class with syllabus in hand, and you were to correctly teach (contrary to your syllabus) what the law says, they could be coming down on you and your certification.  Maybe they never monitor and/or it doesn't work that way, but it could be a sticky situation.

I had a similar situation with a Fed at the local FAA office.  I called and asked some guy I didn't know a question.  In the course of the conversation he said the regulations said I could not act as a Check Airman for my company because I did not have an instructor certificate.  I told him there was NO such requirement and he insisted there was.  After we hung up, I looked up the regulation to confirm what I already knew and get a reference.  I then called back to the FAA and jokingly told the receptionist (who I used to work with) that I needed to straighten the inspector out because he told me something that was flat out wrong.  Oh Boy!  That's the last time I joke around with someone at the FAA because I'm pretty sure those are the exact words she said to the FAA inspector.  He got on the line and was immediately yelling at me so I yelled over the top of him and said "You told me XYZ and you are flat out WRONG!".  He finally stopped and paused, then said "What was the regulation?" and "Can you call me back in 15 minutes?".  I told him I would, hung up, and then worried for the next 15 minutes whether I told him I was in Lincoln crewing a plane that was sitting at Duncan Aviation because he would surely come down and give me a ramp inspection until he found something to bust me on.

I called him back as planned.  Low and behold he was my best friend now.  He said "I tell you what...we were both right and we were both wrong".  Inside I'm thinking "Bull Hockey!", but I just swallowed the words.  He knew he was wrong and I was satisfied.

Fly

[NE Bull]

All good information, but the underlying point of my post was whether handing the LEO your CHP constitutes "informing" them.  According to Ayoob, it does.  I think the argument could be made in court because the law is pretty specific when you have to inform ("Whenever a permitholder who is carrying a concealed handgun") and I can not find a definition of "inform".  The argument could be made that an action constitutes informing the LEO, and that is what Ayoob is saying in the video.  Again, I'm NOT going to be the one to push this.  I think verbal is the safest way to go, but I was thinking about my situation and whether I could have successfully convinced a judge that I had notified the LEO by handing them my permit when I was not obligated to do so.

Just some food for thought if anyone ends up in this dilemma and the LEO files charges against you.

Fly

I too, have wondered about this, much in the sitution you brought up about being amongst folks in the vehicle or where ever, and you do not necessarily want/need them to know.  How do you stealthily 'inform' the officer without 'letting the world know'?   Scenarios- myself transporting Scouts, or say a fella such as huskerXDM on a school trip and they/we are witness to a wreck or involved in a fender bender, or the little burger reading the map got yo all lost and now your speeding to get out a a bad part of town!!.  Do we announce our CHP status (obviously not carrying in these situations) aloud in front of the children (who may or may not pick up on it) or their parents? Oh aghast! what may come of that!  Could you hand the officer your permit on top and ask to speak further in private/ outside the vehicle? I would like to believe the good veteran officer would understand, but what about the adrenilinized rookie?

[stroked93]

I have been stopped twice since getting my permit to carry.  stop sign violation, once for speeding 10 over.  Both times I handed my License and Permit to the officer and informed them I was armed. Both asked where the Handgun was and let me keep it concealed.  1st stop was NSP second was Plattsmouth Police.  Both gave me a warning,  I am always respectable and full disclosure.  If they ask if I know what I did I tell them and acknowledge the violation.  always works, cops hate being lied to.

[Chris C]

I’ve come in official contact 3 times with a LEO since I’ve had my permit.  2 of the 3 times I was carrying but each time I did mention if I was carrying or not to make my life and the Officers easier.  One thing to note I did refer to the weapon on one occasion as “it” is in the glove box and the officer asked what “it” was.  Hindsight after that encounter I do not agree with the “it” term even though Mas did give a similar spiel in his class a few years back about using “it“.  I think weapon or firearm is a better more direct term to be used. 

[HuskerXDM]

I hear what you are saying HuskerXDM.  You are probably correct that being non-confrontational with someone who is the one and only roadblock to your progress is the smartest choice, but I personally would have a hard time going against what I know is correct.  The problem I see with that is that you are supposed to be teaching what is in your syllabus, and how do you do that when it is contrary to the law?  It seems that if a LEO were to monitor your class with syllabus in hand, and you were to correctly teach (contrary to your syllabus) what the law says, they could be coming down on you and your certification.  Maybe they never monitor and/or it doesn't work that way, but it could be a sticky situation.

There are two situations in class where I make sure to mention that the State Patrol specifically asked me to do something.  If somebody has studied before class and asks, I tell them that the law seems to suggest you only notify if carrying, but that I was asked to tell everyone to notify even if they aren't.  Then I say, "I'm not a lawyer and I am unable to give you legal advice." 

[Husker_Fan]

I don't believe you are required to notify unless actually carrying, however, I would make it clear to the LEO that I have a CHP but am unarmed.  They will know you have a permit as soon as they run your driver's license and that will lead to questions in front of your passengers anyhow.  Telling them also prevents the situation of them thinking you forgot to notify when they run your ID.

As for the card being notification, I agree with Dan.  Technically, it only informs them that you have a CHP, and the statute requires that you inform them that you are armed.

[Ronvandyn]

Personally, I refuse to poke a highly amped up bear with a stick.  I tell them, right up front, not mincing words in any way.  The absolute last thing in this world I need is to be looking down the business end of a Glock.  In cases like this common sense trumps law.

Ron