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Author Topic: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun  (Read 4554 times)

Offline whatsit

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Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« on: September 18, 2012, 08:21:14 PM »
Hey everybody, I've shot bolt rifles before, but I'm a real newby when it comes to semi autos. I'm looking for a bit of education on the topic. I'm mostly interested for the purpose of three gun competitions.

Anyway, on to question #1:
Everyone talks about building an AR-15, but I haven't found a good source for what this actually involves. Are we talking about joining an upper, a lower, and a scope? Or are we talking about putting all of the little springs and levers, barrel, nuts, bolts, etc into a frame? It looks like you can do both, so what's the most cost effective?

Question #2:
It looks like AKs are also a decent choice, but there are various levels of quality. What should I look for if I don't want a junker/lemon, but still want to stay economical?

I apologize for being so general. Like I said, I'm looking for an education. I think I'm still at a stage where I don't know what I don't know about semi-auto long guns.

Anyway, thanks for reading!

Offline David Hineline

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 02:54:23 AM »
The most cost effective way for an AR type rifle is to buy what you want assembled.

Now if you are going to change out all kinds of bits and pieces and swap them for more tactical bits and pieces then building from scratch bits and pieces wise might be more cost effective then taking off bits and pieces and tossing in the trash and putting on your bits and pieces.
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Offline JimP

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 01:31:00 PM »
Quote
The most cost effective way for an AR type rifle is to buy what you want assembled.

I disagree.

If you are patient and observant, you can put together a pretty good AR from parts from Palmetto State Armory.

I put together a faux LE-6920 (Everything but the prancing pony on the side, and I got a heavier barrel without the cuts for the M203 Grenade launcher I'll never bother with..... I also neglected to buy a rear sight, but picked one up from our very own Mudinyeri(IIRC?)) from a PSA barrelled upper kit, a stripped lower, and a lower parts kit, for less than $700.  Shipping was free as part of a Father's Day promotion.....

I looked up "AR build" on you-tube and followed along as some pimply faced teenager put one together..... no special tools needed.  The only really hard part is the barrel/barrel extention, and mine was already done by PSA.

As I said, you must be patient and observant, as many items are out of stock at any given time, but they rotate stock very fast..... I was checking back daily to get waht I wanted.....

You might manage to get a cheaper AR, but it won't be just like you want.....
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 06:02:30 PM »
I personally would count buying an assembled upper as buying a prebuilt rifle.  Nothing wrong with that, in fact I think building a lower and buying a complete upper is the smart way to go.  Just slap it on your complete lower and you're ready to rock.  IMO building an upper only makes sense if you want something you can't buy preassembled.  I have built three uppers because of that, but my most recent upper I bought complete because they had exactly what I wanted.  The other reason you might build an upper is if you want to spread out the cost by buying one piece at a time.  Or...just because it's fun.  I've used all three excuses, actually  ;D.

A dedicated 3 gun rifle will typically have a somewhat heavier barrel for steadier shooting and faster recovery.  18 inch medium weight SPR type barrels are common.  I have an 18" White Oak SPR on mine and it's a good compromise between weight and handling.

Really though any non bull-barreled standard AR will be fine.  A 16" M4 type or 20" will both work plenty well, especially for a beginner.  If you want to shoot optics you'll want a flat top receiver instead of the A2 carry handle, but optics and irons shoot in separate classes so if irons are your thing go for it.  I would strongly recommend looking at Palmetto State Armory as they have just about the best prices out there, and I've been favorably impressed with every rifle of theirs I've handled or shot.  I don't think you can beat them for the money.

I would stay away from AK's unless you just want one to be different.  They don't reload nearly as fast, optics mounting is more of a challenge (not impossible, but you have fewer choices), and their iron sights just plain suck.  The typical AK isn't nearly as accurate as an AR, and accuracy is speed.  Having the confidence that the bullet will go exactly where you point it will speed things up.  There's a reason none of the top 3 gun shooters use an AK.  They're a fine rifle, but the game of 3 gun is definitely weighted towards the AR's.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 06:10:06 PM by bkoenig »

Offline whatsit

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 06:23:43 PM »
Thanks for all the good info, everyone. After reading all of this and talking to a couple people, I think an AR is in my future. Now to figure out optics, barrel twist, and other accessories.

Here's another question, though: will a .22LR upper fit on a multi-cal, milspec lower? If I can get a competition gun and a plinker for me and the fam, that would be a huge WAF (wife acceptance factor) gain. Plus may be an excuse to get another lower some day :)

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 06:45:05 PM »
Yes, a .22 upper from the major manufacturers (CMMG, TacSol, Spikes, Compass Lake, etc) will fit any standard AR lower.  Some people report problems with running .22 uppers on a lower that has a notched hammer, but it works ok for others.  If you have problems it's easy and cheap to switch out hammers.  I think a .22 upper is the best AR accessory you can buy.  They're a blast and a great training aid.

As far as barrel twist I personally prefer the faster 1:8 or 1:7.  You can use a wider range of bullets vs the slower 1:12.  Some 1:12 barrels will shoot a 75 grain bullet ok, but with a faster twist you know it will work, and a fast twist barrel will still shoot the 55 grain loads.

Offline sparky

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 08:26:22 AM »
that would be a huge WAF (wife acceptance factor) gain.

That part made me laugh.  Thanks
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Offline JTH

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2012, 10:10:50 AM »
Thanks for all the good info, everyone. After reading all of this and talking to a couple people, I think an AR is in my future. Now to figure out optics, barrel twist, and other accessories.

I wrote this a couple of days ago, but didn't get a chance to post it until today. Some other people have already posted excellent info, so some of this may be unnecessary---but I already typed it, darn it, so I'm posting it!
-------

There are certainly people here who know the ins and outs of rifle builds much more than I do, so I'll leave that up to their expertise---but I can at least talk a little bit about 3-gun competitions, and what works for it.

Couple of assumptions:
1) You mean modern action 3-Gun/Multigun competitions, not Cowboy Action competitions,
2) You plan on trying a number of local matches and working on that before you jump into larger matches, and
3) You don't really have any flavor of AK or AR at the moment, and are looking for something to get yourself started.

Under those assumptions, here's a couple of thoughts:

1) AKs are good guns.  That being said, almost no one uses them seriously for competitions past the local level.  (About the only time it happens is if someone has lost a bet…)  Reloading them isn't nearly as fast, and it isn't as easy to be accurate with them---and there aren't as many aftermarket parts available for them to customize them to exactly what you need.  So---get an AR-15.


2) In general, until you've done some competitions, you don't really know what you are going to need---and if you look online, you are going to get so many differing opinions that you'll go nuts trying to figure out which one is "best".

Since "best" is highly dependent on you and what type of 3-gun competitions you attend (and where), chances are if you take an "expert's" word for what you "need," you'll spend a lot of money on something that you are going to significantly change over time anyway.

So---get yourself a basic, reliable AR.  Doesn't have to be high-end, doesn't have to have a ton of aftermarket parts and competition-level gadgets on it.  Yes, you can do perfectly well with an entry-level DPMS or Bushmaster, to start.  If you want to spend a bit more for a better-quality AR, go ahead---but don't worry about all the bells and whistles yet.  After all, you don't know what you are going to need yet.


3) What division will you be shooting? For example, are you the Shotgun King, and already have a Saiga setup?  If so, you are going to be in Open division, which means your AR better A) have a GOOD quality scope on it, set at a nice high magnification, and B) better either have angled irons sights on it, or a 1x red dot for close targets.  (Preferably a red dot.  And your pistol better be Open-division level, or you are at a serious disadvantage.)

Or since you are just getting started, are you more of a regular person, who is going to shoot Tac Irons or Tac Optics?  Which?  If Irons, then just buy an AR, and you are good to go, locally.  Tac Optics---then you'll need a decent scope for your rifle.  Some people just put a red dot on it, some a 1-4x scope, some have a better scope with angled iron sights---any of the above work.  But if you put any scope on it at all, you are in Tac Optics, so make sure that whatever you use, you can shoot (accurately!) at targets from 5 yards to 100 yards (for local matches) or up to 500 yards (!) for large matches.  Our last local Multigun match had 10" plates at 100 yards, and full-size paper silhouette targets at 3 yards.  A good 1-4x red dot is great for that. 

So...

Some people say build your own, which is perfectly fine.  (Obviously that depends on how much knowledge you have already.)  On the other hand, there is nothing at all wrong with buying a basic AR and competing in Tac Irons division for awhile, to get some experience AFTER which you can figure out what you need.

There are a ton of good, solid, basic AR-15s out there at excellent prices.  Any one of them will be perfectly acceptable at local matches in Tac Irons.


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Offline whatsit

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 10:37:38 AM »
Wow jthhapkido, great info. I'm just learning about the modern 3-gun game (not cowboy action), so any info like that is much appreciated.

Here's what I'm planning to run as I learn:
Pistol: Stock Walther PPQ 9mm
Shotgun: Mossberg 930 JM PRO (12Ga)
Rifle: AR-15 SomethingOrOther with Iron sights or a red dot

I'm not sure what class this puts me in, but I am certainly only going to shoot local matches (probably at ENGC).

I've got the pistol, I almost have the shotgun (just have to find one somewhere since they're in high demand, right now), and I'm still percolating on the rifle, as you can see.

I really need to come watch some more competitions so I can get a better feel for the game. But, the best way to learn is to bring your stuff and shoot it, right? :)

Anyway, thanks again for all of your help, everyone. I appreciate the education.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 11:54:05 AM »
Looks like a good setup.  Depending on whether you use an optic on the rifle you'll be in with Tac Irons or Tac Optics.

 

Offline JTH

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 12:13:14 PM »
Here's what I'm planning to run as I learn:
Pistol: Stock Walther PPQ 9mm
Shotgun: Mossberg 930 JM PRO (12Ga)
Rifle: AR-15 SomethingOrOther with Iron sights or a red dot

I'm not sure what class this puts me in, but I am certainly only going to shoot local matches (probably at ENGC).

Haven't shot the Walther, but I hear good things about it.  (Chances are, when you show up to a match I'm going to ask you if I can try it!)  I run a JM Pro myself, and it is a great gun.  As bkoenig said, if you put any kind of scope/dot on the rifle, you'll be in Tac Optics division.  Without that, you'll be shooting in Tac Irons.

Next Multigun match at ENGC is in November, so you've got until then to get your guns, and get some practice in.  :)

(Matter of fact, our last two Multigun matches of the year are November 18th and November 25th.  We get to shoot Multigun two weeks in a row!)
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Offline whatsit

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2012, 03:55:41 PM »
Haven't shot the Walther, but I hear good things about it.  (Chances are, when you show up to a match I'm going to ask you if I can try it!) 

You betcha. If we ever run into each other (I'll be the goofy looking guy with the Walther PPQ :D ) you're welcome to shoot it. I've put nearly 2k rounds through it and I'm super happy with it. It's never malfunctioned.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2012, 05:51:27 PM »
I second the Mossberg.  I don't have the JM, but I have a regular 930 that's been modded very similar to it.  Runs great and shoots soft.

Offline jonm

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2012, 12:18:36 AM »
another +1 for the Mossberg. I've owned the HS, SPX, and JM Pro. they are all awesome.

Offline whatsit

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 07:58:23 PM »
Update: I found a JM pro and I bought a stripped lower. My plan is to get a parts kit and a completed upper. This seems like a decent balance of do-it-yourself and pre-fab parts.

I'm just not sure if I can get it done by November... we'll see.

And now for another question: what tools will I need for the lower? It looks like a castle nut wrench and some sort of vice to hold the lower while I work on it will be required. Anything else?

Anyway, thanks again for all the great info folks!

Offline jonm

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 08:07:56 PM »
You dont need a vise to hold the lower.
I will recommend a set of vice grips with the jaws wrapped in electrical tape for the bolt hold roll pin and the trigger guard roll pin. Much easier than using a punch and less likely to scratch the lower.

Offline kozball

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 09:08:36 PM »
+1 on the vise-grips wrapped with electrical tape.
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Offline CitizenClark

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 03:58:38 PM »
+1 on the vise-grips wrapped with electrical tape.

Yep, using vise grips covered in electrical tape to press the pins into place worked very well for me, kept me from worrying about dinging my lower with a pin punch.

Offline dukduk

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2012, 05:21:38 PM »
small thread jack but it will probably help the OP as well:
are there any further shots past 100 yards for the ENPS multigun matches? historically? last time the furthest was 100, maybe a couple more since it was a cross shot at the ENGC 100 yd range.

Offline whatsit

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Re: Rifle newby needs help getting into 3-gun
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2012, 05:26:35 PM »
small thread jack but it will probably help the OP as well:
are there any further shots past 100 yards for the ENPS multigun matches? historically? last time the furthest was 100, maybe a couple more since it was a cross shot at the ENGC 100 yd range.

Yeah, good question. I've been eyeing a Leatherwood CMR 1-4x24 for the top of the rifle, but I'll probably start with iron sights. I would love to have the option to go out to 250-300yds if I wanted to, though it would be nice to know about what is typical at the local matches.