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Author Topic: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry  (Read 10113 times)

Offline tatejo

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40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« on: December 04, 2012, 08:18:28 PM »
I am looking between the Walther PPS 9mm or 40. I am just curious what everyone's preferred caliber is for concealed carry. I believe the only advantage to the 9mm is that is can hold one more in the clip. Feel free to give any other suggestions and such....

thanks

Offline unfy

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 08:35:17 PM »
Concealed carry is a fun juggling act.

Stopping power of the round if misplaced on target, rounds in the magazine, size of the weapon.

Then there's also how well the shooter can control a given round for time / accuracy on subsequent shots if necessary etc.



Size of the weapon: this thing is gonna be on your person nearly all the time (hopefully).  Pick a weapon / holster combo that you'll be comfortable with.  Crossbreed holsters make nearly anything comfortable hehe.  I am kinda sniffing around for a smaller carry gun, personally.  I'd like something in a single stack, but haven't really found one that screams 'take me home'.

Rounds in the magazine is a fun question.  I personally want at least 6.  My current carry gun is 12+1.  I don't carry a second magazine although am seriously debating adding it to my belt.  To me it's a fun line of 'have and not need' vs 'need and not have' vs 'how much junk am i carrying around?'.

Most people can control a 9MM just fine.  40's tend to have a good bit more of a snap in their recoil.  With practice, either should be fine.  A heavier gun (particularly a heavier slide like the solid hunk-o-metal that are Sig's) make 40's much more buttery.

I personally won't carry anything smaller than a .40/357.  This puts me at 357mag, 357sig, 40, 45acp for my typical carry choices.  I just don't like the 9mm or 38special.  Personal preference as both of those rounds (9/38spc) have stopped many a person... I just want more oomf personally. 

I'm avoiding 10mm cause of over-penetration concerns (similarly, a 357mag/357sig bullet weight choice has to be done carefully for similar considerations).



hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline cckyle

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 12:55:37 AM »
9mm is going to be a little bit cheaper to shoot/practice with.  That's why I originally went it with and haven't changed.  I think your JHP and other self defense ammo in 9mm is effective and comparable in stopping power to other popular calibers.  I would also rather have 1-2 more round(s) capacity if given the choice.  As far as shooting I think .40 S&W is noticeably more "snappy", but if you carry it I don't think it would be a problem if that's what you practice with/are used to. 


Offline Lorimor

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 06:27:47 AM »
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bkoenig

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 01:04:48 PM »
Thanks Lorimor!  I saw that cartoon years ago and have been looking for it ever since!

Right click > save

Offline JTH

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 01:48:10 PM »
Oh boy.  Well, at least you didn't start a "9mm vs .45acp" Holy War.  :)

Here's my take.  (Feel free to ignore it.)  Given an intelligent choice of modern JHP bullet shot from a reliable firearm, bearing in mind the fact that a pistol is an extremely poor choice to stop an attacker--there isn't really any difference between them at all.

Seriously, there isn't.

I'm not arguing that a .40s&w isn't a larger bullet, that may (or may not, depending on your load choice) have more power/momentum/energy/whatever calculation you like----however, in terms of terminal performance for citizens carrying for self-defense, there really isn't any difference.  (I'm going to ignore barrier penetration/lack thereof discussions for this, since most citizen self-defense shootings don't include those issues.)

So---what do you shoot better? 

What will you practice with consistently?  (What can you afford to practice with consistently?)  What can you carry consistently? (What will you carry consistently?)   

Most citizen shootings end in either the bad guy running away without a shot being fired, or a "psychological stop," meaning that the bad guy isn't actually physically incapacitated, but instead stops because mentally they have had enough.  As such, technically speaking, a .22 from a revolver can actually work quite well in a majority of such situations.  (Interestingly enough, lots of "armed citizen" stories have .22s in them.)

That isn't to say that I think people should carry .22s.  (Though it is better than a pointy stick.)   I personally don't like the idea of carrying anything less than a 9mm (no, I don't like .380s or .32s, and the new Bond movie annoys me greatly) because with a 9mm it is certainly possible (though not easy) to achieve a physiological stop.  With less than 9mm it is still possible, but much more difficult to do---and MUCH more difficult to do quickly.

With that being said, ANY handgun isn't very good at achieving a quick physiological stop.  And the differences between said stop with a 9mm, .40s&w, and a .45acp is----minimal.

With every single one, it is about shot placement. With good shot placement, all three work just about the same.  And if you don't have appropriate shot placement, then yet again---all three work about the same (meaning:  not very well).

A good discussion of this resides at:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Note:  I don't always agree with DocGKR, nor do I always agree with Fackler.  (There are some research issues I think they gloss over here and there.)  That being said, I believe that the information presented in this link is pretty much spot-on with regard to:

1) equality between calibers,
2) choice of high-quality JHP,
3) the list of "best-choice" JHPs given, and
4) how most things that people worry about really don't make any difference.

My thoughts regarding ammo choice is that lots of LEOs carry Ranger-T, Federal HST, and Gold Dot ammunition.   You can get those in .40s&w or 9mm---and they really do work about the same across all three versions of JHP and across the two calibers.

So---for YOUR choice:  which gun will you practice with more and carry more, and most importantly, which gun gives you the best results for fast precise shot placement?

My personal choice is a basic G17:  9mm glock, 17+1 capacity.   (Or a G19, which is my summer gun, with a 15+1 capacity.)  I could use a G22 instead (same gun, same frame, 40s&w, couple less rounds), but my followup shots aren't quite as fast (which is very minor, because the difference is tiny) and it is a lot more expensive to practice with and shoot (which is major, because practicing hitting exactly what you need is far more important than any almost-nonexistent difference in performance).

Which one will you get good with?  Go with whatever that one is.  And if you don't reload, 9mm is going to be a LOT cheaper than the other choice.  (Even if you reload, 9mm will still be cheaper.)

By the way:  Yes, 40 recoils more.  But that really shouldn't be a big deal unless 1) you are attempting to shoot it out of a pocket pistol, or 2) you have incredibly tiny hands.  My wife loves to shoot her .40s.  (Significantly more than she loves to shoot her 9mms.)
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Offline bullit

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 02:14:14 PM »
+1 with jthapkido's post....being a long time 1911 guy i.e. .45 ACP for years, I've carried a Glock 19 (124gr +p Speer GD) or Glock 23 (180 gr Win PDX) daily for the past 4-5 years (yes I mocked the plastic until shooting and owning one and one day my friend Lorimer too will see the light).  Interestingly this week I began carrying the new FNH FNS9 (again with the Speer) just to be different.  All that being said, one of my reasons personally for my choices in caliber these days for you conspiracy theorists/doomsdayers out there......has been the concept of "battle field" pick up or availability of ammo.  In short, the world goes caput and dead LEOs around as an example.  A majority today will most likely be carrying .40 S&W or 9x19 Luger... or my local WM, Scheels, Cabelas will likely be well stocked....same for my long gun choices (.223, .308, 30-06, 12 and 20 ga).  Ain't a lot of 9x18 Makorav or Macaroni or Kurz or .385 Double Gauge Whisper JD Jones Express ammo out there.  You just have a club at that point.

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 02:20:59 PM »
Another +1 on Tom's post.

Sums everything up nicely.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2012, 02:34:20 PM »
Jth nailed it.  Handguns stink as a man stopper.  If I knew I was going to be in a gun fight I would bring a 12 gauge or an ar15.  Well, actually, I would stay home but that's beside the point.

There's a study I've seen before that shows almost no difference between handgun rounds.  They looked at self defense shootings using everything from .22 to .45 and they all took basically the same number of shots to end the fight.  As Jth said that is probably a case of the bad guy saying "Holy Crap! That hurts!" and quitting.

My biggest beef with .380 is the reliability of the pistols chambered in it.  Blowback pistols tend to not be very reliable.  That said, I have a blowback Cz 82 in 9mm Mak that is utterly reliable and the most accurate handgun I own, so I do carry it occasionally.

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2012, 03:09:29 PM »
My biggest beef with .380 is the reliability of the pistols chambered in it.


+10000, Learned this the hard way with a Walther PK380 that decided to **** the bed during my CHP course. I completed the course of fire, although it was singe-shot style. Could have done it just as fast with a derringer. The next day I took it back in and got a Ruger LC9 that I have been very happy with.

I'm a bit of an oddity though, as I do not feel comfortable regularly carrying anything without a "toggle" safety. That is just my rule, I do not wish to preach it to other people. Do what you are comfortable with.

Offline JTH

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2012, 03:23:22 PM »
(yes I mocked the plastic until shooting and owning one and one day my friend Lorimer too will see the light). 

Indeed, one of these days, Lorimor will learn better.  :)

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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 03:59:18 PM »
I'm in agreement with those who are in agreement with Tom.  Caliber is almost irrelevant ... with the exception of 10mm.  10mm trumps everything!  :-)

Seriously, get a gun in a caliber that you can shoot well and practice shooting active, real-life scenarios.  Shot placement trumps caliber (except 10mm) every day of the week.

Offline lneuke

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 05:45:07 PM »
Jth nailed it.  Handguns stink as a man stopper.  If I knew I was going to be in a gun fight I would bring a 12 gauge or an ar15.  Well, actually, I would stay home but that's beside the point.

Exactly, handguns are only good for close fighting and concealment.  Other than that, they are a strong deterrent, rather than a man stopper.  That's why the caliber debate (as far as wound ballistics) for the most part is a waste of time.

My biggest beef with .380 is the reliability of the pistols chambered in it.  Blowback pistols tend to not be very reliable.  That said, I have a blowback Cz 82 in 9mm Mak that is utterly reliable and the most accurate handgun I own, so I do carry it occasionally.

I have a .380 Makarov IJ70 which is very similar to the Cz82, and I cannot get that thing to malfunction for the life of me.  It still ejects even if I limp-wrist the crap out of it, and it'll eat any type of cheapo ammo you can put in it...too bad the ergonomics suck on the Mak

Offline unfy

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 05:57:03 PM »
Wait.... there's a consensus ?  Here ?  How did that happen ?

DAN!!!! HAVE YOU BEEN EDITING POSTS!!! j/k
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline abbafandr

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 07:43:24 PM »
I have 2 9mm pistols I carry.  Glock 17 is one.  I have a pocket one that is very concealable and more practical a lot of the time.  Hornady Critical Defense is ammo of choice.
If you can't present and hit something vital with it quickly it doesn't matter what you carry.  I've read a lot of accounts where just presenting the pistol (or revolver) seems to discourage the would be assailant.  I think they would prefer their marks to be unarmed.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2012, 07:16:03 PM »
Heck, at this moment I happen to be carrying a 5 shot J Frame revolver in .38 +P.  Capacity stinks, but it's tiny and easy to conceal, and unlike most tiny autoloaders it's utterly reliable.  Surprisingly accurate, too.

Unlike a lot of other people I tend to tailor my carry gun to what I'm wearing that day and what kind of activity.  I like my little .38 for when I'm wearing clothes that don't conceal well or if I'm doing something activity like running.  It's so light I don't even notice it.  Now, when I'm wearing bulkier clothes I like my full size CZ75 SP-01 Phantom.  19rd mags rule.   :D

Offline greg58

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 08:06:13 PM »
I have a .380 Makarov IJ70 which is very similar to the Cz82, and I cannot get that thing to malfunction for the life of me.  It still ejects even if I limp-wrist the crap out of it, and it'll eat any type of cheapo ammo you can put in it...too bad the ergonomics suck on the Mak

I have one of those too, bought it 20 years ago because it was dirt cheap. You are right it always goes bang.
The first day I got it, I was double handing it a little too high, and that little devil bit me harder than a rattlesnake.
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2012, 07:53:08 AM »
:)  Tom Hanks didn't blow up that tank with a 9mm fellas.  :) 

I am somewhat, moderately, sorta open minded about this.  I have to admit, there is a poly 9mm in my vault now.  I will not divulge the brand though (but no holsters for it.)

It is kinda fun being the only steel framed .45 guy in classes.  And punching great big neatly cut holes in paper with 200 SWC's. 

"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline Lorimor

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 07:54:55 AM »
Thanks Lorimor!  I saw that cartoon years ago and have been looking for it ever since!

Right click > save

I loved it as soon as I saw it and immediately stole it.  It's my favorite thing to post if I feel like a caliber war is about to erupt.
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 08:55:27 AM »
Here's another pic for the caliber wars ....