Beginner Question(s)

[cckyle]

I'm very new to reloading, so sorry if these are stupid questions.  If I am doing anything wrong please point it out.  I managed to find everything I needed to get started reloading.  I am starting with 9mm as that is what I shoot the most.  Long story story I am starting with Rainier 124 grain copper plated round nose 9mm and winchester AutoComp as well as Remington small pistol primers.  I've had a hard time finding loading data for that grain and copper plated with the AutoComp.  I can find loading data for AutoComp, but not with that bullet.  I read on a couple of forums that people sometimes sub lead data for copper plated and start low.  So I compared some data online of AutoComp with other bullets and the load data in my reloading manual for the grain I am using but in lead.  I made up 3 different loads, small batches to see what might work. 
1st= 4.2g auto comp w/ 124g CPRN.  OAL 29.3mm+ I had four of these, they all fired but failed to eject/cycle each time.
2nd= 4.5g auto comp w/ 124g CPRN.  OAL 29.3mm+ I had three of these.  1st shot failure to eject, 2nd shot fired and cycled the gun, 3rd shot fired but failed to lock the slide back
3rd= 4.5g auto comp w/ 124g CPRN OAL 29.15mm+  I only had two of these, but the first one cycled the gun and the second one fired and locked the slide back. 

I don't know if it matters or not but I was using a Glock 19 for this. 

My question is where do I go from here?  I know the first two loads won't work.  The third (although I only had two to test) did work.  I think the OAL of the 3rd load compared to the 2nd was what made the difference(increased pressure, not that the first two were to lengthy).  Should I make up a larger batch of the 3rd load and test a bigger batch?  Should I try the 2nd load and step up a .05-.1 grain?  Maybe make a batch of both and test accuracy between the two?  Is there an advantage to a longer OAL and more powder grains vs less OAL with less powder grains? 

Maybe I am just over thinking this.   

Thanks

[Dan W]

I can respond to this after work ( 6pm or so)

[unfy]

I'll possibly chime in later tonight after work as well.  That'll probably be quite late in the night, though.  Will address the specifics of your load data etc, but Dan will prolly beat me to it and I won't need to say much .

Many plated manufactures do suggest loading their bullets as if they're lead.  This is generally a great starting point.  Most lead based loads produce lower pressures, so you do have some wiggle room on the upper end (just a bit). The lower pressures and such are typically to reduce leading in the barrel and stuff.  Too much leading can get you into over pressure situations after continually firing rounds and 'lead plaque' builds up etc.

My personal experience has been to not have any problems with loading plated rounds on the lower / middle range of jacketed rounds.  Keep an eye out on your barrel to see how the bullets are treating it etc (fouling, etc).

[Dan W]

I have loaded many thousands of Rainier plated bullets.

I have in my archives some load data that Rainier released on their website, but they no longer supply any load data other than the suggestion to use data for lead projectiles.

Unfortunately, the powder you are using did not exist back when the data was released.

MY best advice to you would be to load a bit long and increase the weight of powder in your second load until your pistol is fully reliable (2nd= 4.5g auto comp w/ 124g CPRN.  OAL 29.3mm+)

Personally I would load 4.8gr for 10 and check for reliable cycling snd then try and get a velocity reading.

 

[cckyle]

Thanks for the advice.  I don't have a chronograph, yet.  I will see if I can't get one very soon.  I field stripped the glock after each load, the first two loads left a lot of small particles in the barrel, the third load not so much.  I also noticed on the empty cases there was more fouling on the brass(especially the first two loads) than I had noticed previously shooting factory rounds.  Is there any indications with this?  I haven't shot this G19 much so maybe it is the glock barrel?  I don't know if it matters but I am using a lee 3 die set that has the adjustable crimp, I don't have the factory crimp die.

I will probably not get time to get to the place I shoot until sometime next week, but that will give me some time to work up a load or two to test and maybe get a chronograph sometime.  I will stick with the longer OAL and increase the power weight like you said. 
I am enjoying what little of reloading I have done so far.  After I got my press set up I decapped/full length sized about a thousand cases I had saved up, tumbled them, primed a hundred, and worked up those few loads.  I have to say I enjoyed the work, and it was neat to see the end product of what few I made.  Then to go out and test what I had worked up was exciting. 

Anyways, thanks again for the advice!

[JimP]

My brother loaded Berry's 124gr RN plated bullets with Unique and a measured it with a dipper ...... when we put it to a chronograph, we found that Unique is not a good powder to use dippers with- erratic velocities and dangerously light charges in some cases.  IDK what your powder is like (Never used it) .... IME all flake powders don't meter as well as ball or extruded powders.

He switched to Power Pistol (.5cc/ 5.9 gr, IIRC) and it worked out much better, whether using a dipper or PPM ........ out of his sR9c, he was getting around 1100 f/sec. 

[JimP]

Ask somone with more Glock exerience than me about reloads in a Glock barrel......

  I also noticed on the empty cases there was more fouling on the brass(especially the first two loads) than I had noticed previously shooting factory rounds.  Is there any indications with this?

Sooty cases can mean insufficient pressure to fully expand the brass and seal the chamber.

Assuming you were "working up" (starting at the start load), the first two loads leaving the cases sooty would jive with the above ..... 

[Dan W]

Yes sooty case mouths and "sandy" residue is common when pressure is too low to obturate (read: seal the case mouth to the chamber wall) and you get incomplete powder burn.

I had this trouble with HS6 until the pressure approached SAMMI  Max.

I have heard that AutoComp is similar in that it shines at the higher end of pressure limits.

I have since moved to AA#5 and my midrange loads are much cleaner. Right now I am only cleaning my G17 about every 1000 rounds ( about a season of Rock your Glock matches)

[cckyle]

Sooty cases can mean insufficient pressure to fully expand the brass and seal the chamber.
Assuming you were "working up" (starting at the start load), the first two loads leaving the cases sooty would jive with the above ..... 

Yes sooty case mouths and "sandy" residue is common when pressure is too low to obturate (read: seal the case mouth to the chamber wall) and you get incomplete powder burn.

Ok that makes sense.  After thinking about it I remember seeing a flash for the first load maybe the second.  I figured it was coming out of the muzzle, but I suppose it wasn't sealing the case with the chamber and the flash I was seeing was coming from the ejection port???

He switched to Power Pistol (.5cc/ 5.9 gr, IIRC) and it worked out much better, whether using a dipper or PPM ........ out of his sR9c, he was getting around 1100 f/sec. 

I bought some power pistol as well when I got the autocomp.  So I will be trying that next after I burn through some more of the autocomp. 

Dan W, have you had any problems with the glock barrel and your brass?  I have read elsewhere that the glock barrels have looser tolerances for increased reliability, but that this can cause problems with integrity of the brass you want to reload.  I have a lone wolf threaded barrel on back order that I was going to use for reloads.  Do you think this is necessary/helpful? 

Thanks again for the input/advice guys!

[Dan W]

Dan W, have you had any problems with the glock barrel and your brass?  I have read elsewhere that the glock barrels have looser tolerances for increased reliability, but that this can cause problems with integrity of the brass you want to reload.  I have a lone wolf threaded barrel on back order that I was going to use for reloads.  Do you think this is necessary/helpful?

Only brass issues related to reloading was when I have run across +p+ loads fired in a Glock 9mm. 9mm Glocks are really pretty easy on brass

I don't load .40 cal so I don't have experience with brass bulges in 40S&W.

I did run across a batch of brass loaded by Double Tap that had some big time bulges in high velocity 45ACP

Your real problem with a Glock barrel would be if/when you  use soft cast lead  bullets. The lead tends to build up in the grooves of the polygonal rifling and pressures can spike up very fast if the barrel leading is not cleaned out regularly

So, in 9mm jacketed or plated bullets, you factory barrel will work just fine with standard velocity handloads

[unfy]

Dan W, have you had any problems with the glock barrel and your brass?

This should primarily only be a concern with 40S&W in a Glock.

This was discussed in another thread, and includes a neat picture showing 40S&W chambered in different pistols:

http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,6483.msg46135.html


As long as you keep an eye out on your brass, particularly near the case head / webbing for 40S&W, you should be fine.


Also, given that 124gr is on the heavier side for 9mm, I echo Dan W's suggestion of keeping the longer seating and upping the powder charge by 5% at a time, staying under the max.

To continue to concur with other posts, a very low charge will indeed cause soot and sealing problems.  I have a bunch of low-charge Unique based rounds in 40S&W and lead that typically don't lock the slide back at the end of a magazine, are sooty / smokey and will reduce visibility to zero if fired in quick succession .


edit:

pressures can spike up very fast if the barrel leading is not cleaned out regularly

Speaking of this, when shooting lead, I carry a bore snake with me in my shooting bag when I go to the range.  Particularly handy when developing a lead-based load to check fouling ... or when ya have a good load... for quickly running through at the end of a range session.  Doesn't replace a proper cleaning, but does help .

[cckyle]

I finally got a chronograph and made it out to shoot today. I made up a large batch of 9mm.  I used the 124g RN Ranier bullets with 4.65g of autocomp and OAL of 29.20.  They averaged around 1050 fps.  Cycles the G17 and had no issues. Decent accuracy at 25 yards.  I went ahead and put some factory rounds through the chrono and they were averaging around 1200fps.  I think I will up the autocomp a bit more and get some more readings. 
Dan, when you said you would load 4.8g, I think you may have been spot on there.
Additionally I need to find more autocomp somewhere or work up a new load with either unique or power pistol.  I may run out of small pistol primers before the autocomp though. 
Thanks again for the help/advice.     

[unfy]

Unique's a smokey powder......hehehe.