A question about what CCW training should be....

[stutzcattle]

My wife and 24 other people took a CCW class today lasting from 1000 to 1500.  I showed up when things were about done and stayed and drank a couple beers with the students after the instructor left.  Most of the people didn't understand anything about ccw or any methods of carry.

The range they used was not a range at all and was in no way safe.  I won't describe it, but no one I know would allow this for experienced shooters, let alone this group. 

I'm pretty disappointed with this guy.  It was $125/person and they received nothing other than their certification.  This was a football **** all the way around.  I understand a guy being compensated for his time, but he made well over $2500, sold a couple piece of **** guns and didn't help these folks at all.

The people that were the most disappointed were the women there.  And there were several.  They came with no experience and left with no education.  My wife asked me if that's how my class was.  It was not.   

I'm pretty disgusted and feel that this does not promote the concealed carry lifestyle.  If you're one of these instructors that is only in it for the money then shame on you.  You're gonna get someone killed. 

Please tell me that this isn't how this works now.  I understand the current craziness, but this is bull****.

[bigdog]

This wasn't like my class at all. My class time went form 8-5 with 30 minute working lunch and then went to the range the second day. I would take my class again just to do it.

bigdog

[Dan W]

I think the thing to do is report your wife's experience, and if you can get them to agree, her classmates,  and file a complaint with the Nebraska State Patrol.

The NSP oversees the certification of all instructors and the curriculum they must follow, as well as printed handout materials that I seem to remember were a requirement of the class.

There are many excellent instructors here in Nebraska that I am sure would not want their profession damaged by allowing a substandard class to continue unabated, not to mention the possible harm that could come to the students in an unsafe range setting

[Gary]

The 10am sounds familiar, our class this coming Sunday starts at 10am in Fairbury at the Law enforcement center.

Often times, life is what you make of it.  Lemons, lemonade.   I would be slow to put in negative feedback to the SP. 

No one got hurt, everybody learned something, moved forward.  Continuing education is ongoing, and daily.   

My last class on CC was over 30 years ago, put on by the sheriff in the sheriffs office in CB, IA.  Class room instruction only, no range time. 

The only thing I remember from that class, was they warned us never to shoot at abandoned cars, stuck in the mud in creeks, rivers.  The instructor said it was against the law to shoot any vehicle, abandoned or not. 

After the class this Sunday, the Coffee is on me!  I will return to this thread and give an assessment of our class.

I think this is a great topic of discussion of our expections for this class. What this Class is not, is 4 weeks at the Nebraska state patrol training academy.   It is also not a substitute for homework on your own before or after you take the class.

I would think our class time is going to be a good bit of instruction of what not to do as CCP holders. No John Wayne, Clint Eastwood antics. 

To be honest, i would prefer our state adopting laws like Vermont has. Everyone in Vermont may carry concealed if they choose to, as a legal resident of the state. Then if a town like Omaha wants to restrict that in some way, let the citizens of that community figure out what is best for them. Our system of government has way too many laws on the books.

[abbafandr]

My CCW class was a one day affair.  It started around 8:00  and lasted until almost 9:00PM.  One of the instructors was a lawyer who taught classes on legal aspects to OPD.  There was a lot of time spent on the legal ramifications of your actions.
Our range was a small private one, but we shot into a berm.  The most disconcerting thing to me was a good portion of the class acted as if this was the first time they had handled the weapon they were using.  If you don't know how to present your weapon or have one that regularly has malfunctions, I don't know what good it will do to have a permit.  But no complaints about the quality of the training from me.

[Mudinyeri]

Did you address your concerns with the instructor?  Personally, that would be my first line of approach.  The instructor, if made aware of your concerns, might offer you a bit of a refund or even some additional training.

I think there's a fairly wide variation in classes as you've seen from those who've already responded.  As I recall, my class started around 8:00 a.m. and went until about 2:00 p.m.  As I recall, there were about 15-20 students of all experience levels.  Having taught Hunter Safety classes for a while, I can attest that it's difficult to teach a class that fits the needs of everyone in the room.

[bullit]

As an instructor myself who is NOT in it for the money...my two cents. This "instructor" will hang himself at some point if his course is as poor as it sounds. His post course paperwork must include the number of hours in class and hours and the range. What you've stated will likely raise a red flag with NSP and he'll have his class audited. From personal experience I can't see how he could have covered the material AND ran 25 folks through the range 5 at a time per the regs in the time frame you listed.

[Lorimor]

Did you address your concerns with the instructor?  Personally, that would be my first line of approach.  The instructor, if made aware of your concerns, might offer you a bit of a refund or even some additional training.

I think there's a fairly wide variation in classes as you've seen from those who've already responded.  As I recall, my class started around 8:00 a.m. and went until about 2:00 p.m.  As I recall, there were about 15-20 students of all experience levels.  Having taught Hunter Safety classes for a while, I can attest that it's difficult to teach a class that fits the needs of everyone in the room.

I wouldn't want that job.   A class full of folk with widely varying backgrounds and experience.  Gotta be tough.

Flat out, the mandated CCW class isn't enough.  I believe the student must have some experience with operating a handgun safely and competently at the very least before attending the class and THEN, take even more training to keep up to snuff with legalities and dare I say, "advanced" stuff, like using a light. 

The problem is, good training isn't cheap.  Ammo isn't cheap.  But compared to making a legal boo-boo, that stuff IS cheap.

I don't want to see the state mandating minimums as I fear eventually that power will be abused to deny the "little people." 

A responsible attitude cannot be legislated nor can it be trained into a person.

It's a huge responsibility!  Get training!  I don't care how much Dad or Uncle Buck showed ya, it isn't enough.

[Lorimor]

As an instructor myself who is NOT in it for the money...my two cents. This "instructor" will hang himself at some point if his course is as poor as it sounds. His post course paperwork must include the number of hours in class and hours and the range. What you've stated will likely raise a red flag with NSP and he'll have his class audited. From personal experience I can't see how he could have covered the material AND ran 25 folks through the range 5 at a time per the regs in the time frame you listed.

You're just in it for the fame and glory.  (and to show off your Ho Chi Minh flip flops.) 

[DaveB]

If all the minimum requirements were met, there is nothing wrong with what was done.

I was fortunate in that we had an instructor that wanted to go farther than what was required. He did that on his own and let us know that where he was going was not required.

Just like everything in life, some are just better than others, just as long as they all at least provide the minimum necessary.

[stutzcattle]

I don't envy the guys that teach these classes.  This class ranged from a couple girls that started shooting a pistol 1 week ago up to guys that are 50 yrs old and have been shooting for a lifetime.   I wasn't there for much of it, basically just the last 30 minutes while they ran through the targets.  There was no berm, no safe area, and half the people didn't have holsters for their weapons. 

When they first scheduled this class the guy had 50 signed up and only reduced it to 25 after he got busted at a class a couple weeks ago for being way over his limit.   I'm not as concerned about anyone being taught all the ins and outs of CCW, I know it can't be done in one class.  My concern is with this being a pencil-whipped money generator.  I think it reflects poorly on all of us. 

[ghknives]

As an instructor I don't see how the minimum requirements could be met in that time period

[FarmerRick]

I feel that the NFOA as an orgainization should encourage safe CCW training that follows the State-mandated ciriculum.  This experience described does not seem to qualify as such.  While I feel that there should be NO PERMITS REQUIRED to carry openly or concealed, since we have a law that requires training and a permit, that's what needs to be followed at this time, BY LAW.


Stutz- I would encourage you to report you and your wife's experience to the State Patrol. If the instructor is making short-cuts in his training as you've described, he is doing a dis-service to his students and all those who come in contact with them.

Also just my opinion, but I beleive this so-called "instructor" should be named here in public to prevent him from taking advantage of any other unknowing potential customers.  I have a pretty good idea who it is, but will wait on making a guess.

[wusker]

My wife and I are trying to save for our CCW class costs right now, since Nebraska concealed carry training is booked till may it will be a bit for us that is where we are going, I have heared good things about these teachers.  I have a sense of taste so i wont ask for you to post it here but would you PM the name of the CCW training facility or teacher so I do not send my brother-in-law there or my sister they are planning on getting theirs soon also.

[bullit]

The fact that you noted holsters not being used tells me he has violated the draw from concealed requirement (unless he stupidly had them pulling from their pockets or waistband). Just as important is that the NSP can revoke all permits from his classes if determined he is not teaching the requirements.

[Mudinyeri]

I feel that the NFOA as an orgainization should encourage safe CCW training that follows the State-mandated ciriculum.  This experience described does not seem to qualify as such.  While I feel that there should be NO PERMITS REQUIRED to carry openly or concealed, since we have a law that requires training and a permit, that's what needs to be followed at this time, BY LAW.


Stutz- I would encourage you to report you and your wife's experience to the State Patrol. If the instructor is making short-cuts in his training as you've described, he is doing a dis-service to his students and all those who come in contact with them.

Also just my opinion, but I beleive this so-called "instructor" should be named here in public to prevent him from taking advantage of any other unknowing potential customers.  I have a pretty good idea who it is, but will wait on making a guess.

Before we start pulling out the pitchforks and torches ... let's think for a moment about the absence of details and first-hand information.  The OP admits that he was only around the the last 30 minutes or so of the class and is relying on characterizations from others (second-hand information).  The OP can speak authoritatively to the last 30 minutes of the class.  His wife could post her first-hand impressions of the class, but I'm hesitant to crucify someone publicly without more first-hand detail.

I do believe it would be entirely appropriate for the OP and his wife to go directly to the instructor and voice their concerns/complaints.  If those concerns/complaints are not addressed, then I think it would be appropriate to report the instructor's behavior to the State Police.

[Phantom]

Well I 'm taking My Class room part tonight

I'm taking my CCW Training from Professional Firearms Training.

So I'll be able to let anyone know on how good i think they are.
I am Ex-Military so I already know lots of what will be taught.

It will be interesting to learn what I don't know.

The Range part will be later this week conducted At the Bullet hole.
and it requires drawing from a holster (no Shoulder holsters for this part)

I know this from my brother who has already taken the CCW training through
them in the past.

It was him who recommended them to me for getting my required training.
two of their instructors are currently Omaha Police officers.

Except for the info from my brother there wasn't much info except where to be and what time for the class.

I would suggest that trainers make sure to give out all info like should you bring your gun and other equipment to the class room part or not. (the classroom  part is to be inside  Scheels)

I have some NFOA Flyers with me to hand out if anyone of them seems like they'd like more info about the NFOA.
So maybe I will be albe to hand some out tonight.
I should have gotten a T-shirt as well when i picking up the Flyers From Rod ( I just forgot he had them )
(Rod you need to Hang one up on your wall somewhere and thank you for the Flyers.)
 

I forgot to add a link their website is at
http://www.pftomaha.com/Home_Page.html

If anyone is interested


Phantom

 
 

[GreyGeek]

I took my ccw class on Dec 9th, two months ago.    In the week before the class I looked up all relevant law on the Nebraska legislative website concerning ccw, open carry, where one could and could not carry, etc... and printed copies of the law.  I studied them before hand and I also took the printouts to class.   My  instructor handed out almost  the same identical printouts, and more.    Studying them beforehand gave me an advantage in class in that I knew what questions I should ask in advance.  On the test I got 30 right out of 30 questions.  His class time was packed with information and only a 10 minute pee break was given before we jumped back in.   There was no wasted time.  I would have ticked me off severely  if he had been redundant, wasted time telling tales, or appeared to be poorly  prepared or unprepared.

But, for me, where my instructor really shined was in the personal attention he and his partner gave to me during the range portion of the class.  It was like I was there in that indoor shooting range alone with them.  (If I had really been on top of MY game I would have made sure to pick up the 150 9MM brass casing I left on the floor.  I'm sure his partner got them!     BTW, anyone have any 9mm Luger casings they want to sell?).

As an LEO with about 30 years experience it showed.  He taught me exactly how to handle an interface with an  LEO while carrying.    I know exactly where I can and can't carry, and the questions I had were answered.     And while I had a lot of previous experience shooting rifles and shotguns, and use to carry  a 9mm while a deputy marshal for a couple years in a small village in central Nebraska, that was  40 years  ago.    Proper handling of a hand gun was demonstrated very well, and the mistakes I made on the range received instant and sharp  rebukes, especially about keeping one's finger off the trigger while pulling the  weapon out of the holster and until one decides  to shoot. And, watching out for muzzle sweep or potential collateral damage to unintended downrange targets.    He checked out my IWB holster, its position, and how well it gripped the weapon, and how easy it was to pull the weapon.  All questions  I was concerned about before the class.    He also checked out my weapon thoroughly.   I had 3 FTE's and was wondering if it was my fault or the gun's fault.  He immediately corrected my grip ("limp wrist" problem) and the next 135 rounds never gave me another FTE.

I plan to take more classes from Craig and his partner later on, after I spend some time on the range.  While I had only one bullet out of 150 outside the kill zone, a shoulder hit,  I want to be more accurate than that.    I want the first shot to be within a 5" diameter circle from  2 yards to 20 yards, and in a 9" circle at 50 yards.    So, I got lots of practice ahead of me.   That's why I've purchased a reloader and necessary equipment (but my ccw ammo will be commercial).

One interesting tidbit I learned was that one can prevent the discharge of a second round in a semi-auto pistol by holding the rack when the first round is discharged.   I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen his partner demonstrate it.

[JTH]

Before we start pulling out the pitchforks and torches ... let's think for a moment about the absence of details and first-hand information.
[snip]
I do believe it would be entirely appropriate for the OP and his wife to go directly to the instructor and voice their concerns/complaints.  If those concerns/complaints are not addressed, then I think it would be appropriate to report the instructor's behavior to the State Police.

Looking at this, there are really two viewpoints here:

Instructor's viewpoint:
The state class isn't a technique class---students should come into the class knowing how to draw from a holster, aim, and shoot accurately at a target from various (fairly close) distances.  (The max distance is 21 feet, so it isn't like the accuracy requirements are particularly onerous.)

They need to be able to do all of the previous in a safe fashion, obeying the standard rules of gun safety.  They should come in with the appropriate gear--a firearm, magazines, and a holster and clothing that can conceal it. All of those are required by the qualification--and the course itself is NOT there to teach the required gun handling. 

The curriculum is required to include some shooting basics, plus practice---but it really isn't supposed to be a technique course.  Students should already know how to shoot.

At some point in time, the State Patrol will be adding me to the list of state CCW instructors (just waiting for their final approval) --- and if a student shows up to my class unable to be safe, or without appropriate equipment, they'll have to come back to another class later.

The state class really is about information---laws, regulations, and requirements.   Conflict resolution, understanding the basics of use of force--information to keep yourself from making a mistake and ending up in prison yourself.  Previous shooting experience won't really give you any help for this, either--because most of the class isn't about shooting technique.  (Hardly any is about shooting technique.) 

Most of it is about _when_ you can shoot---and more importantly, when you shouldn't.  As such, unless you've already had self-defense and use of force training, pay attention! 


Student's viewpoint:
Five hours isn't a lot--especially if there was a break for lunch in the middle.  Looking at what is required for the state curriculum, I don't see any way to cover all of that plus the range requirement (for 25 people?!) in five hours.  I certainly couldn't do it--not and have anyone learn anything.

Covered that quickly, I'm betting that most of it just whizzed by with just barely enough sticking well enough so that people could pass the test.  (I'm also betting that there was a lot of "this will be on the test, so remember it!" commentary.)

As for range commentary--it doesn't have to be a commercial range, or really anything more than an open area with safe directions and a backstop.  That being said--if it wasn't safe, then that isn't right.  The state patrol regs specifically state:  "A firing range means a location operated and maintained for public or private shooting sports and designed to keep fired rounds within a berm or backstop."  If there wasn't a berm or a backstop, or something similar for safe fire, then there's a problem.

If some people shot and passed the range test without a holster (and thus, not from concealment) then it wasn't a valid range qualification.  In addition, if there was only one instructor with more than 5 students on the line at a time, then that is also an issue. State Patrol regs:  "Range/practical exercises - 1 instructor to 5 students."




…so like everyone else, I think the OP and the student should contact the instructor and give feedback, and hopefully receive clarification. 

If said clarification is insufficient, then contacting the State Patrol and making an official report would be the next step.

[greg58]

My son and I took CHP training a couple of years ago at Great Plains Rifle LLC. near Bruno NE, near Abie NE. In other words, near nothing but farmland. The rural atmosphere contributed to a relaxing day.
The class was well prepared, covered what the Statute requires, the class size was 12 people max. the setting was in a small gun store where you could buy ammo if you didn't bring enough, and the shooting portion was right out the back of the store to a small range.
The 2 instructors are husband and wife and are retired NSP, tuition included pizza lunch, the training was not hurried, and I really felt the shooting portion was handled safely.
Call this a shameless plug, but we were very satisfied.

Greg58

http://greatplainsllc.com/ccwtraining.aspx