A question about what CCW training should be....

[Lorimor]

See below.  ND on the mouse. 

[Lorimor]

Though my ops aren't very black, I have been known to operate somewhat covertly.  Therefore, I am nominating myself as an independent CCW class auditor.  This won't be an inexpensive undertaking however.    It will take massive amounts of money for me to live in the style I have been accustomed to.  And don't forget, ammo is increasingly expensive.  As anyone can tell you, I'm a big fan of the spray and pray technique.  I tend to shoot a lot.  It makes me feel good.

Yes, I am willing to make the sacrifice and provide this much needed and vital service. 

Please send your very large and extremely generous donations early and often to the Lorimor Fan Club. 

Um... oops?

[dcjulie]

It really saddens me to hear about classes like this.  We took Chris Z's class several years ago and it was excellent.  It was a LONG day, but any day in a classroom is long.  He took the time to go over the required material, and we got a copy of all the statutes to take home.

We also submitted our curriculum to the NSP in January and are awaiting approval to be instructors.  The requirements are detailed and significant!  I can't believe anyone would be able to cover that much material in < 8 hours.  The fact that there are instructors out there doing just that is a shame.  If you are not willing to teach the requirements, don't teach!  I don't fault the students in this situation, but these instructors need to be evaluated by the NSP and their classes altered or their instructor approval revoked.  They make ALL OF US look bad!

[SeanN]

http://www.areagency.com/

I really hope this is a joke.

[dcjulie]

Unfortunately, I don't think so.

[RLMoeller]

Not a joke.  I've seen him peddling the badges and pot metal guns at the shows.

[bullit]

"Badges.....we don't need no stinkin' badges...  we got our Jimenez's ...."

[SeanN]

That's just complete clown shoes.

And the scenario he outlines on that website is ridiculous. Because apparently making the fast movement to get your badge and show it to the cop isn't going to make him shoot you! 

[bullit]

I think Farmer Rick has a badge or two....

[Gary]

I would remind my fellow NFOA members, litigation comes in many forms, and forums.   Like some of our grandparents taught the fortunate among us, if you have something good to say.......

If you have taken his class, then I think you can add your perspective on what was done and said.  If you have not, yet you wish to run down his business, well, that is deep water you are swimming in.

I took Bruce's class, and while I think there are things that could have been done better, every class could find things to improve upon.

 I have two Don Larson classes (so far), a well respected NRA Instructor & Training Counselor, and he did not enter nor leave the classes, walking on water.   People are people, and if the State Patrol has given their credentials to someone to teach CHP classes in Nebraska, that would seem to be in their hands.

Who here would like to poke fun at the NRA for selling a Concealed Carry ID holder, that looks very much like what Bruce is selling, only with a NRA twist to it? 






It is not your ID holder, seal on it, badge, gun you carry, or the car you drive.  It is not about all that baggage.  It is about how you stand in your own shoes that really says who you are. 

[dcjulie]

Gary - the requirements for teaching the NSP class are specific.  This guy teaching the thing in 4 hours can not possibly be covering the mandatory requirements in any way that are beneficial. 

I have personally been told by students from some classes that they didn't learn a thing (I don't know who the instructor was).  They went in, got a copy of the test, was told what the answers were, threw some rounds downrange and were told they "passed."  They were not comfortable with the laws, nor carrying a concealed hand gun.  They paid >$100 for the class, and felt they got nothing out of it.  I encouraged them to take their concerns to the NSP, and they were afraid to do so.  They said that they did not want to "get anyone in trouble" but came to me to learn about CCW and shooting.

The goal of instructors should be to TEACH students, not merely make money and crank out CCW permits!

As to your defense of the "badges" - okay.  I think the NRA ones are ridiculous too!

[zofoman]

Regarding the CWP badges.....for what purpose do they serve and furthermore who are you going to "flash" that ridiculous looking thing to?   

I for one think that if a person flashed one of those babies around, that simple act could be misinterpreted for impersonation of law enforcement.    Not a good position to be in.    There endeth the lesson.

But, back on topic....anyone wishing to take a CCW class really needs to do their homework first and ask/look around (such as here on this forum) as to where to get the most/best training for one's hard earned dollars and not let the simple price aspect drive the results.   

[ghknives]

The general public doesn't realize the difference between a good and poor instructor. Most are shopping for best price, least time and smallest ammo expenditure. Unfortunately, the difference could mean hundreds of thousands of dollars, lengthy prison sentences or worse

[Gary]

Gary - the requirements for teaching the NSP class are specific.  This guy teaching the thing in 4 hours can not possibly be covering the mandatory requirements in any way that are beneficial. 

I have personally been told by students from some classes that they didn't learn a thing (I don't know who the instructor was).  They went in, got a copy of the test, was told what the answers were, threw some rounds downrange and were told they "passed."  They were not comfortable with the laws, nor carrying a concealed hand gun.  They paid >$100 for the class, and felt they got nothing out of it.  I encouraged them to take their concerns to the NSP, and they were afraid to do so.  They said that they did not want to "get anyone in trouble" but came to me to learn about CCW and shooting.

The goal of instructors should be to TEACH students, not merely make money and crank out CCW permits!

As to your defense of the "badges" - okay.  I think the NRA ones are ridiculous too!

I can hint a storm is coming, but I cannot pull you guys out of the rain. 

As for me showing a defense of badges, hardly.  I was just showing that offering by NRA.  NRA sells socks also, haven't purchased any (yet) lol

 I keep my ID in my cellphone case.  Never go anywhere without that.   

I ridiculous comment about the NRA.  Really?  Why in heavens name would someone say such a thing about the NRA?



Here is one of my favorite NRA video clips. 

[dcjulie]

My comment wasn't about the NRA, just the badges sold by the NRA.  I can like an organization and dislike some of their products.  I think the badges are an invitation to significant legal problems.  My opinion, I have the right to express it.

I fully agree that the general public is shopping for the lowest price and shortest time in class for their CCW permits.  I just hope that when they get poor quality information, they don't end up paying for it dearly in either legal fees or their lives.

[Gary]

Here is a close up of the "ridiculous" NRA seal, badge, medallion, whatever you want to call it.

Here is the description from the NRA web site:

 When carrying concealed, it’s vital you have your CCW permit and your identification on you at all times. We’ve made it easy to keep them both in the same place. Our Concealed Carry Permit Wallet is comprised of American leather and features two windows for standard card sizes. This permit is small enough to fit in your front pocket, purse, or even inside your existing wallet. A shiny, metal NRA medallion is recessed into the outer leather of the wallet to show that you’re a member and law abiding firearm owner. Closed Dimensions: 3” x 3 ¾”. Color: Black. Made in USA.


"to show that you’re a member and law abiding firearm owner"

Do we as members of NRA, GOA, or NFOA have a problem embracing our colors, as we carry concealed? 

I have zero problem with it.   I am not ashamed or NRA, GOA, NFOA, NE CHP in any way.

Do I think showing this will get you discounts on donuts at Hy-Vee?   Not a good idea.  Can we show it to other interested gun enthusiast's, or other NRA members?  You bet.  Today, I was at an NRA class, and I proudly wore my NRA hat.

For kicks and giggles, I just ordered one.  Drop by my shop at 1st & O street anytime to see it in person. 

[FarmerRick]

I see a very significant difference between these two items...







One is a BADGE, the other is the NRA logo.

One tries to be something that should not even exist, the other does not... IMHO.

[dcjulie]

I agree Rick.  A badge, in my opinion, is just begging for "impersonating a law enforcement office" charges.

[metaldoc]

I took my CCW class from Mark Bohaty at Great Plains Rifle LLC. by Bruno, NE.  He is a former NSP officer and does a thorough job in his class.

He has one of those garish badges for show and tell.  His advice?  Do NOT carry one these!

[JTH]

Who here would like to poke fun at the NRA for selling a Concealed Carry ID holder, that looks very much like what Bruce is selling, only with a NRA twist to it? 

Considering that the NRA folder doesn't look in any way like a badge, and instead looks like a medallion, and the ones that are being sold elsewhere deliberately look like a badge...

...yeah, I'd say there is a significant difference.

Especially since you quoted the NRA page itself saying that it is to show NRA membership---which is obviously a completely different reason than the "CCW badges" being sold.

As such, your entire argument about the badges and all simply makes no sense.


Here's the thing:

Oddly enough, the people here want to obey the law.  We aren't happy about having to jump through hoops to exercise our rights, but we want to obey the law.  Part of that means taking an approved class that qualifies us to finalize the application for CCW.

If a person is demonstrably not teaching a class that qualifies, but is still passing themselves off as a CCW class instructor, then this will be a problem, because at some point in time, the State Patrol will investigate, and all the people who thought they took a qualifying class will find out that 1) their class fee is gone unless they are successful in suing, and 2) they can't carry until they take a REAL class and then re-apply.

If people are listing specific things that happened (or didn't happen) in a class, that specifically do not follow the state patrol requirements, and commentary is made upon it---you know what?  That's a good thing.

And if an instructor has a problem with that, well....all he has to do is show that his classes don't match the descriptions being given here.   If he can do that, hey, he's got a libel suit possible.

I can hint a storm is coming, but I cannot pull you guys out of the rain.

Maybe because we think you aren't a very good meteorologist, given past experience.



It is completely legal to sell the stupid CCW badges.  And completely legal to suggest them to people.  That doesn't make it smart, but it is legal.

However, teaching a ccw permit class in less than 4 hours including range time?  No.  Short of a class of advanced speed-readers who also have photographic memories, the amount of curriculum necessary to meet State Patrol requirements simply cannot be taught in that time.