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Author Topic: A question about what CCW training should be....  (Read 13298 times)

Offline Gary

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2013, 11:03:41 AM »
Do you think holding one up to an officer, or holding the other one up, in the first instances, of a shooting, will be instantly  and initially recognizable as being any different?

Proof that they could easily be seen the same as one member here had a first impression, the NRA symbol was "ridiculous" and now  siding with another member that says there are significant differences.   

So it is the quick, very possibly incorrect perception of the viewer (LEO, (or forum member in this instance)) we need to worry about at a shooting scene, not just what may be printed in small type on the pot metal medallion.

I went to Google, and typed in:


"Concealed Weapon Badge & Case"

Guess how many hits that brings up? 830,000.   By contrast, Disney Characters was 221,000,000, Chicken Soup Recipe was 35,500,000, mustache wax was 23,000,000, Harvey the pooka was 60,200, JFK was 53,500,000.

So while everything I tried in Google for popularity was more than CC badges, with the one exception of a 6' tall white rabbit, almost 1 million hits, is still a big marketplace.  It would seem, while the vast majority of the people here have stated they would not want one, somebody is offering lots of them for sale. 

Researching this, I came upon this badge





Does this tell us we have an over zealous ham radio operator?

Doing a search of "Badges" on Google came up with 340,000,000 hits.   Many times that of JFK.   In pages and pages of badges on Google Images, maybe one in 1,000 is a LOE badge. 

A pretty good article about badges can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge

I found this, where a 17 year old was using a police issued cadet badge to buy alcohol.  Good story and accompanying video. 

 http://fox8.com/2013/04/30/police-teen-poses-as-officer-to-buy-booze/

Offline dcjulie

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2013, 11:37:37 AM »
I never said the symbol was ridiculous, just the badges (I made an error, I misread the NRA info and thought they were also selling a badge, not just a medallion).  I have spoken to LEOs who say the badges are not a good idea.  They see them as a CCW holder trying to "impersonate" a LEO.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to hold up a badge/medallion/etc. to a LEO in any situation, especially if you've had to defend yourself with your gun.  They want your ID and CCW permit.  I could be wrong, but I'd think that if you flash a badge at a cop in a high-adrenalin situation, you might get tagged for impersonation. 

I am also not a fan of "advertising" my CCW status.  A badge in/on my wallet just seems wrong to me.  But, to each his own.

Offline omahasnake

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2013, 12:00:25 PM »
I've been reading all the posts this morning and find it interesting that no one has commented that the instructor in question had a loaded gun with him in the classroom.  One of the things in all my communications and when I first start class is that there are absolutely no live rounds allowed in the classroom...including myself...and anyone bringing ammunition into the classroom is immediately dismissed.  We use snap caps for any demo purposes or images/posters as needed. 

Regarding the badges, I tell folks that it could be considered impersonating an officer and I do not recommend them.... 
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Offline JTH

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2013, 12:04:29 PM »
Do you think holding one up to an officer, or holding the other one up, in the first instances, of a shooting, will be instantly  and initially recognizable as being any different?

I think doing anything that stupid in the first instances of a shooting is a bad idea.

I think that the concept is a bad idea.

I think that there is a significant difference between "carrying a CCW badge to hold up to law enforcement" and "having a nice case to carry your ID and CCW permit" which really is the defining difference between the two situations.

I realize you are suggesting that they be used the same---but that isn't how the NRA puts it.


Quote
Proof that they could easily be seen the same as one member here had a first impression, the NRA symbol was "ridiculous" and now  siding with another member that says there are significant differences. 

She didn't say the symbol was ridiculous, and as she has already mentioned, she misunderstood something you said, and thought the idea of an NRA badge was ridiculous.

Quote
So it is the quick, very possibly incorrect perception of the viewer (LEO, (or forum member in this instance)) we need to worry about at a shooting scene, not just what may be printed in small type on the pot metal medallion.

Which is why the concept of a badge to hold up is stupid.

Which is probably why the NRA case isn't meant to be used that way.

Quote
I went to Google, and typed in:


"Concealed Weapon Badge & Case"

Guess how many hits that brings up? 830,000.

{snipped the rest of it because it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand}


What does that matter?  A search on "rape whistle" gives us almost 4 million hits---which means exactly nothing.  (Rape whistles are stupid and useless.)

The amount that something occurs on the web has very little to do with its efficacy.  May have to do with its popularity, but this discussion isn't about how popular CCW badges are, it is about how it is a bad idea.


In the end, the concept of having a CCW badge is bad for a number of reasons.  And if you believe that the NRA case equates to having a CCW badge, that's certainly your opinion, but it certainly isn't how the NRA markets that case, nor is it how it suggests that case should be used.

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Offline Gary

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2013, 01:54:32 PM »
As an NRA Certified Instructor, one thing you never do, and one thing you never let your students do is BRING LIVE AMMUNITION, PERCUSION CAPS, PROPELANTS or PROJECTLES INTO THE CLASSROOM!

Students firearms as well as ammo should stay stowed in their locked vehicle until such time the instructor advises you to do otherwise.

Nebraska has had two Negligent Discharges at class settings in a short span of time.  Bad things sometimes travel in packs of three.   Not again, if we are all careful, and really push safety in the programs we do.

Here is a ND I found on you tube the other day.  Guy has a good attitude about it, and I think he has learned from his error.   



 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 01:56:36 PM by Gary »

Offline JimP

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2013, 03:08:47 PM »
Quote
Regarding the CWP badges.....for what purpose do they serve

To quote Colonel Jeff, "What is it FOR?    ......Why, to SELL, of course!"

Caveat Emptor, indeed!
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline Gary

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2013, 05:34:47 PM »
To quote Colonel Jeff, "What is it FOR?    ......Why, to SELL, of course!"

Caveat Emptor, indeed!


I read the whole Wikipedia article, and I think they missed that reason.

Offline dcjulie

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2013, 09:47:03 PM »
Well there's your problem Gary - you read Wikipedia.

Offline FarmerRick

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2013, 06:00:50 PM »
Take a wild guess who is set up at the Fremont Gun Show this weekend... with a table full of Jimenez pistols and CCW badges.




Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Offline Gary

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2013, 06:07:43 PM »
Well there's your problem Gary - you read Wikipedia.

  I prefer sticking to issues, rather than post opinions that others in forums have problems.

Offline Gary

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2013, 06:12:39 PM »
Take a wild guess who is set up at the Fremont Gun Show this weekend... with a table full of Jimenez pistols and CCW badges.



I wonder how many people here have the gonads to walk up to his table and have a eye to eye talk with this guy, at his table in Fremont?     I will say hello to him, and wish him a good day.   I guess it is easier to poke fun behind others backs than talk one on one with someone. 

Offline JTH

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2013, 07:26:38 PM »
  I prefer sticking to issues, rather than post opinions that others in forums have problems.

Really?

Quote from: From Gary previously just in THIS thread
I would remind my fellow NFOA members, litigation comes in many forms, and forums.   Like some of our grandparents taught the fortunate among us, if you have something good to say.......
and
Quote
If you have not, yet you wish to run down his business, well, that is deep water you are swimming in.

and
Quote
I can hint a storm is coming, but I cannot pull you guys out of the rain. 

And, I'll note, when people posted discussion on the topic of CCW badges, you switched to a completely separate topic about NDs.

So.....what exactly ARE you trying to say here?

I, for example, are trying to say that 1) people should teach the approved State Patrol curriculum in its entirety for the CCW class, and 2) it is a stupid idea to carry a CCW badge.

If people aren't doing #1, then litigation is probably going to find them from disgruntled students, and an investigation from the State Patrol is probably forthcoming.  If people are doing #2 anyway, then hopefully they'll actually read commentary from respected national-level trainers like Massad Ayoob, and stop it before they do something additionally stupid that causes them more problems.

If you have a CCW permit, you aren't a cop.  Don't act like one.  And don't portray yourself as one.

Oh, and as for:
Quote
Do we as members of NRA, GOA, or NFOA have a problem embracing our colors, as we carry concealed? 

Thinking that a badge somehow equates to "colors" is simply wrong.  And if for some reason I see a need to show "colors" as I'm carrying concealed---then I'm not thinking clearly enough to conceal.

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Offline FarmerRick

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2013, 10:33:51 PM »

I wonder how many people here have the gonads to walk up to his table and have a eye to eye talk with this guy, at his table in Fremont?     I will say hello to him, and wish him a good day.   I guess it is easier to poke fun behind others backs than talk one on one with someone.

I confronted him about them at least a couple times a few years ago and told him how absolutely STUPID I though the badges were.  Seems that most others that are well versed in CCW training and what actually happens after a self-defense shooting happen to agree with that conclusion.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Offline Gary

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2013, 11:58:37 PM »
I confronted him about them at least a couple times a few years ago and told him how absolutely STUPID I though the badges were.  Seems that most others that are well versed in CCW training and what actually happens after a self-defense shooting happen to agree with that conclusion.


 I get it, that most of you guys have a deep seated fear of recognition badges.  With several trophy shops up and down O street, do you all break out into sweats, just driving by those places?

My wife is a 35 year employee of the State of Nebraska.  Every five years, the state gives her a badge, medallion, whatever you want to call it, recognizing her for years of service.    If she just flashed that badge, to most people, and then said FBI, up against the wall, in a stern voice, while her hands spun them around, I am sure that would work.

She works in a drug rehab program in the state pen.  Once an inmate passes their program, they are given a medallion, that looks pretty official, to remind the inmate to be good, and stay with the program.     If an inmate wanted to get into trouble, flashing that state issued medallion / badge, I am sure they could do so.    Is the state of Nebraska a foolish for passing out to inmates, badges to show completion of a drug rehab course?

I think the folks on this forum are way to paranoid about a symbol of compliance and recognition, which is all a badge is.   

Here is my wife's o so dangerous 35 year medallion.    Hope she never gets into trouble flashing that baby.  lol



I have decided to show a little support for my fellow NRA member, Bruce Swartz, and I will drop by his table tomorrow and purchase one of his badges. 

Funny, I never wanted one, like I do now.    I will put it in the safe, next to all my wife's State issued badges for good service. 

Thinking about it, I believe you folks are correct, it is less than ideal for Bruce to sell his badges, he should give them out as a memento of completing his gun courses,  much the same way the state honors people who attend to a task, and complete it.   I will mention that to him. 

Does our friend Bruce, need to explain the use of a badge showing completion of a CHP class?  Possibly, doubt seriously he is ultra experienced in the development of web page design. 

What if the State of Nebraska offered to sell my wife her 40 year pin,  rather than give it to her?  What if they offered to sell them to the inmates for completing the drug education class rather than awarding them?  That would change the picture somewhat.

I want to thank everyone here for participating in this decision on badges, and any more ideas on the subject are welcome.   
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:06:04 AM by Gary »

Offline FarmerRick

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2013, 07:23:02 AM »

I get it,   


No, I don't quite think you do.
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2013, 09:56:33 AM »
My wife is a 35 year employee of the State of Nebraska.  Every five years, the state gives her a badge, medallion, whatever you want to call it, recognizing her for years of service. 

I worked in the Dept of Rev for 11 years before I retired.  I was given a couple of those "badges". Mine are small enough that I call them lapel pins.  I'm 6'6", 250 lbs and even  with my best intimidating voice I doubt I could convince anyone that I am with the FBI by flashing that lapel pin.   Maybe, with my commission as an Admiral in the Nebraska Navy I could fool them into believing that I am a retired Navy officer, if they don't examine the plaque too closely.

Offline JTH

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #96 on: May 18, 2013, 12:20:40 PM »
I get it, that most of you guys have a deep seated fear of recognition badges.  With several trophy shops up and down O street, do you all break out into sweats, just driving by those places?
Quote
I think the folks on this forum are way to paranoid about a symbol of compliance and recognition, which is all a badge is. 

Quote
Funny, I never wanted one, like I do now.
 
Quote
I want to thank everyone here for participating in this decision on badges, and any more ideas on the subject are welcome.   

Thank you for making your thinking and decision-making process clear.

You believe that pins, medallions, and badges are all equal and mean the same thing.  You believe that these things are all the same:


...and that all of them will give the same meaning to people who see them.

This is in response to the people who are discussing the idea of carrying a CCW badge as said on the http://www.areagency.com/ website:
"You're threatened with deadly force, but your gun is out and pointed at the felon. You have your Concealed Handgun Permit Badge with you. The police pull up to the scene and the dirtbag shouts, "He's going to kill me. SHOOT HIM!" WHAT DO YOU DO? You display your BADGE to the police and shout, "DON'T SHOOT. I'M A LEGALLY LICENSED HAND GUN OWNER.""

...and according to you, all those things are the same, and the idea is perfectly fine.  (I note also that I had to do some work to make the badge, the medallion, and the pins similar-sized, which they most certainly aren't.)

And, as
Quote
an NRA Certified Instructor
this is your own personal opinion.  I'll note that you took the NRA class only a few weeks ago, you probably haven't even been credentialed yet by the NRA, and you haven't ever taught an NRA class, so I wouldn't throw around that certification too much yet...

...but anyway, here's my thoughts on your contentions:

I think that

1) You have made a lot of remarkably personal derogatory comments to a lot of other people,
2) You have made a lot of commentary that didn't have much in the way of logic to back it up, (nor much structure),
3) Your personal opinions, while apparently completely valid to you, make no sense to me at all (A: the pictures above are not similar as there is a significant difference between a badge, a pin, and a medallion; B: carrying a badge on your person to show people is an invitation to legal charges; C: your contention that wearing a badge is somehow "showing colors" seems ridiculous as the operative part of CCW is the "concealed" bit; D: showing immediate support for someone who is, according to witnesses, violating the requirements for teaching CCW classes, unsafe in said classes, and pushes selling an item that not one legitimate nation-level trainer says is a good idea ---this just seems like a bad idea, not that listening to stories on the internet is proof, but it certainly doesn't seem like a reason to unilaterally support him, either.)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, Gary.  (This isn't Bruce using a pseudonym, is it?   Trying to drum up support?  Or are you a business partner with Bruce?)  However, when you think that those opinions should influence other people, you are going to find that first they have to make sense, and secondly you have to be able to logically support them.

And among other things, comments like:
Quote
I get it, that most of you guys have a deep seated fear of recognition badges.  With several trophy shops up and down O street, do you all break out into sweats, just driving by those places?
...really isn't going to help you.

I'll note that I think you are wrong in just about everything you've attempted to argue.  That's my own personal opinion, though.

Oh---I'm an NRA Life member.  That doesn't make me automatically support anyone else who is an NRA member.  So when you say:
Quote
I have decided to show a little support for my fellow NRA member, Bruce Swartz, and I will drop by his table tomorrow and purchase one of his badges. 
...I see no reason to push that Mr. Swartz is an NRA member, nor that you are. I'm just not sure why that is relevant.  Just like I don't see any reason to continually shout that I'm an NRA Life member, because I didn't do it to gain recognition or make it easier to network.
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Offline RN4Guns

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #97 on: May 18, 2013, 01:26:05 PM »
I may be late to the party here but what do the medallions have to do with the badges? And how does that even apply to conceal carry? I'm confused?  ???

Offline bullit

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #98 on: May 18, 2013, 07:08:37 PM »
JT ....please don't run Gary off.....this page has lacked a lot of entertainment value since "ArmedandHumerous" left the site.

Offline Bucket

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Re: A question about what CCW training should be....
« Reply #99 on: May 18, 2013, 10:23:42 PM »
This thread = :facepalm: