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Author Topic: DHS "surveying" for more ammo  (Read 836 times)

Offline GreyGeek

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DHS "surveying" for more ammo
« on: May 04, 2013, 04:51:44 PM »
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=4bfa86faa5946081ac3c886bf208f08f&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

The purported purpose of the survey is to find out which suppliers can supply ammo to the FLETC at Glynco, Ga.   

It gives rise to a few questions.  Ammo makers responded to questions about the possibility that the government was trying to circumvent the 2A by creating an artificial shortage in ammo.  The replies from ammo makers that I read stated that only 5% of their production goes to government contracts.   So, if ammo makers cannot keep up with public demand how can the even begin to supply additional demands of ammo to the DHS and its subsidiaries?

Notice questions #15 and #16.  The gov is asking about supplying ammo in one or two million round lots, with turn-around times of 30 to 60 days!   :o

Look below the questionnaire  for info about FLETC at Glynco, GA

Quote
QUESTIONNAIRE:
1. Company Name:
2. DUNS Number:
3. Mailing Address:
4. Point of Contact Information to include: name, title, telephone number, and email address.
5. How long have you been in business?
6. Are you a large or small business for North American Industry Classification System (NAICS)?
7. If small business, are you:
Small Disadvantaged - or - 8(a)
In a Hubzone
Service-Disabled Veteran-Owned
Women Owned
8. If large business, are you capable of partnering with small business for this requirement?
9. Are you a manufacturer?
10. Does your company currently produce and/or sell any of the training calibers listed above? If yes, provide a list of your Government customers to include agency name and a point of contact with phone number or email address.
11. Describe your production facilities and capabilities.
12. Describe your quality assurance program.
13. What is your experience in working with your customers to identify and correct potential quality issues?
14. Are you capable of producing any of the training calibers listed above to meet the stated performance requirements?
15. Are you capable of producing large quantity orders of any training caliber specified with a short turnaround time of 30-60 days?
16. What would your lead time be for an order of 2 million rounds of a single type listed above?
17. If you were awarded a contract for some of the calibers listed above, submitted a production lot of one million rounds and that lot or portion of the lot was not accepted, would you be able to replace that order with an additional one million rounds within 60 days?
18. Do you have the resources and mechanisms required to endure the recalling or rejection of production lots of ammunition: What is your plan for mitigating this risk?
19. Provide information to include material safety data sheets and retail price lists for all caliber types and components of training ammunition.
20. Where would production take place?

There are 7 locations where FLETC trains, the major one being at Glynco, GA.
http://www.fletc.gov/about-fletc/locations/glynco/
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Additionally, Glynco has 18 firearms ranges, including a state-of-the-art indoor range complex with 146 separate firing points; and eight highly versatile semi-enclosed ranges with 200 additional firing points.

I don't know the correct way to parse that sentence.  It is a total of 146 + 200 = 346 firing points?  Or is it (18 * 146) + (8 * 200) = 4,228 firing points?   Considering that they said that during FY 2012, almost 70,000 students received FLETC training, and assuming that training is 5 days a week and not 6 or 7, and subtracting two weeks vacation, that leaves 70,000 folks being trained in 250 days, or 280 students per day.  But, if the training is 5 days, for example, then the  overlap requires 1,400 students on campuses during the week.  That would imply 4 students per shooting point per week, taking turns.   If each student fired 250 rounds during the week that would total to 17,500,000 rounds shot during the year, or about 1,500,000 rounds per 30 days.   This is in line with their claim that they'd need about 1 to 2 million rounds every 30 to 60 days.  Of course, that is taking only Glynco into consideration, unless the 70,000 include all students from all seven locations.

Others with shooting ranges include:
Cheltenham has 108 firing points.
Artesia has an undetermined number  of firing  points.
Charleston "" ""   ""
International "" ""  ""  "" 
State and Local  "" " ""   (depending on location)
Washington ""  ""  ""

These training needs by the FLETC wouldn't explain shortages of 20 gauge and  .22 caliber rounds, unless Lead that would normally go into making those rounds would be diverted to the needs of the DHS.   CCI Speer, for example, said that they made 4 million rounds of .22LR A DAY at their Idaho plant, and it is running 24/7.    That 1,460,000,000 rounds of .22LR per year.   Either the number of people purchasing and stocking up on ammo have exploded, or some or doing an extreme amount of hoarding.   Or both.

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: DHS "surveying" for more ammo
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2013, 08:50:05 PM »
Either the number of people purchasing and stocking up on ammo have exploded, or some or doing an extreme amount of hoarding.   Or both.

I am sure this is buying habit (hoarding) and speculation.  I have observed people buying bulk ammo that would normally only purchase a box or two in several months span. There is a (very, very) large number of new gun owners who believe the opportunity to be a gun owner was slipping away and jumped on the urge to buy.  The most convincing thing is reloading supplies have gone the same way. Things like bullet molds and lead melting pots have all gone out of stock....but are available on eBay for 2 to 4 times the retail price (and people are paying it to speculators).
If the goal was to reduce ammunition in the hands of the public, it appears there are more guns and ammo in the hands of individuals then ever before. As makes me wonder if government department bugets are strained when a limited funding exceeded by general public demand such that they will pay several times the going price of even a few months ago. Imagine a good deal of funding was not prepared for costs to go up multiple times.

Offline Bucket

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Re: DHS "surveying" for more ammo
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2013, 10:26:58 PM »
The original questionnaire is standard market research required by most Federal acquisition programs.  Often times they are just a formality, but often times are used to determine how a certain acquisition is put together.

I'm no expert on the FAR, but I've answered enough of those to know that they are pretty run of the mill steps in the government procurement process.  The fact that the FLETC is buying ammo shouldn't really be that much of a surprise.  A request for information like that posted is absolutely normal.  A search on FedBizOps, linked in the OP, would turn up thousands of similar requests.

The FBO entry pretty much explains what they are doing.

Quote
The purpose of this sources sought notice is to determine how the Government requirements can be met. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers (FLETC), Glynco, Georgia is anticipating a purchase of Reduced Hazard Training Ammunition (RHTA) for multiple caliber types for use in the training programs for the FLETC sites. This applies to frangible and non-frangible projectiles and must meet the requirements stated below.

THIS IS A MARKET SURVEY REQUESTING INFORMATION IN SUPPORT OF THE FOLLOWING PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENT. No contract will be awarded from this announcement. This is not a Request for Proposal (RFP) or an Invitation for Bid (IFB), nor is it to be construed as a commitment by the government. Response to this questionnaire is purely voluntary and no reimbursement will be made for any costs associated with providing information in response to this market survey or any follow-on information requests. Data submitted in response to this market survey will not be returned. No solicitation document exists at this time and calls requesting a solicitation will not be answered.

Offline dukduk

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Re: DHS "surveying" for more ammo
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2013, 01:23:02 AM »
lol bucket, you don't happen to work in bldg 40?

Offline Bucket

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Re: DHS "surveying" for more ammo
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2013, 09:19:06 AM »
lol bucket, you don't happen to work in bldg 40?
No, I"m a program manager for a major defense contractor.  I've not done any work with DHS, but it's pretty much the same process as DoD.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: DHS "surveying" for more ammo
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2013, 02:49:21 PM »
I'm no expert on the FAR, but I've answered enough of those to know that they are pretty run of the mill steps in the government procurement process.  The fact that the FLETC is buying ammo shouldn't really be that much of a surprise.  A request for information like that posted is absolutely normal.  A search on FedBizOps, linked in the OP, would turn up thousands of similar requests.

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to, and what I said:
Quote
This is in line with their claim that they'd need about 1 to 2 million rounds every 30 to 60 days. 

The canary in the mine, IMO, will be the .22LR availability.  When it eases up I'd wager the rest will too, because the manufacturers are making that caliber bullet  in much greater quantities than any other, and they are ramping up.  I still believe, however, that the current shortages will continue for another year, perhaps two.