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Author Topic: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge  (Read 10334 times)

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2013, 01:54:58 PM »
Math is hard.

I'm a newbie to mil ranging, but wouldn't it be easier to figure it in meters and just know your clicks for that measurement?  I have a mil reticle and turrets for mil clicks, so that should simplify things, right?

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2013, 02:28:54 PM »
Mil relation is to give you the range to the target only, not your firing solution :)

Mils work well with yards or meters. If you want to figure your range in meters, the formula looks the same, just use target height in inches X 25.4 instead of 27.8 to get your constant.

You use that range to determine your firing solution. Comes back your firing rhythm:

Gather Data
Range and wind are your big 2. This is where your mil relation formula is used, to determine the range to the target.
Example:
Target range is 520
Wind is full value 5 mph

Develop and Implement firing solution
Use that gathered data to develop a firing solution.
Example: (I'm making numbers up here)
Elevation dial up 3.6 (based from your range using your dope as reference)
Windage hold left 1.3 (based on your wind, either using a formula, or the British method with your dope as reference. I recommend the latter.)

Fire
Practice good fundamentals. It is also good to have a set rythm for actually firing, and practice it to make it second nature. This can be done in dry fire. Nothing like missing a shot and realizing after the fact that your head placement was crap or you forgot to check your level. Don't get stuck on your wind correction either. Wind changes, be flexible.

Observe
Practice good follow through with minimal-to-no recovery from the recoil to spot your splash. This is in case a second round correction is necessary.

Adjust and fire
Using what you observed from your splash, implement a hasty correction (this is where having matching dials and reticle can really pay off), usually using holdover for small adjustments, but dialing if you are way off.



Offline bkoenig

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2013, 02:59:08 PM »
Ok, I realized where I wasn't connecting the dots.  I was thinking if you knew the target size in meters it would be easier to calculate the range in meters, but if it's given to you in inches you'll still have to do math.

I'm just a simple caveman.  Math is hard.

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2013, 10:06:26 AM »
Looks like all my email pestering is paying off! The sponsor list is taking off!!

I have confirmation emails from the following companies:
Redding Reloading Equipment
American Reaper Arms (Who will also be competing in the match, using a reserve slot)
Impact Data Books
Nebraskacoyote.com
Sierra Bullets (They never actually said yes or no, but they are asking for an address to send things to)

At this time there are 4 spots left for regular competitors, and I don't expect them to last long.


Offline RobertH

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 10:43:38 AM »
i've decided not to do this match.  i may however come watch, maybe help out.  it all depends on my work schedule.
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2013, 12:31:18 PM »
Check is in the mail and I got an order of SMK's yesterday. 

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2013, 02:36:43 PM »
i've decided not to do this match.  i may however come watch, maybe help out.  it all depends on my work schedule.

No worries, and it is always good to have another hand. Let me know if you will be available.

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2013, 12:33:02 AM »
David Hineline on the NFOA FB group asked why adjustable turrets are required. Given that it was Facebook, I gave a brief response to the effect that I don't like setting people up for failure. It was short worded, and I do feel this is a valid question (my inbox has been blowing up with questions about the match, as most people have never heard of PRS) and I feel it deserves a better answer.

Quote
Wonder why you specify Scope must have adjustment capability, not everyone shoots target turrets.

The nature of the precision rifle competition is being able to hit (consistently) MOA targets from the prone from 100 to ~1000 or more, and hit (consistently) 1-3 MOA targets from much-less-than-ideal improvised positions from 100-~600 or more. All under field conditions, all with the same rifle, ammo, and optic. Adjustable turrets is a common requirement at PRS and PRS styled matches.

Now I assume that David is referring to either ACOG type optics or closed turret hunting glass. With the exception of a very small percentage of well practiced, skilled, and talented shooters, the above tasks will prove nearly impossible with these optics.

ACOGS and other similar optics are, for all intents and purposes (assuming the rifle/ammo is capable), at best, only truly effective against a full size IPSC out to 600, under ideal conditions from the prone. That is, at its best, a 2-3 MOA capability given a fairly skilled marksman, at 2/3 the max range of the match. Now add field conditions (i.e. 15-20mph winds), improvised positions, and a time constraint.

Without the ability to dial, you will find yourself holding for both windage and elevation, and you will run out of the latter very quickly, unless you are using a "poor man's horus" or a real horus (and I am not aware of any closed dial scope with a horus reticle, although it may exist). Holding is not an ideal method of correction, with the exception of wind, and only because wind is generally a changing effect. For elevation, it is not something we want to do, it is something we have to do... in a pinch. Double holdover is going to significantly decrease a shooters accuracy to the point of.. well.. good luck hitting much in this match, save for minor second shot corrections.

Now, I realize that there are world class shooters out there, whom these statements do not apply. If someone *really* wants to enter and shoot the match with closed turrets, I'm not going to turn them away.

This type of match is new to this area, and I would like everyone to have a good experience. So they come back next year, go to other matches of this type, and this style/type of shooting increases in popularity. I am working very hard and very carefully to ensure that the match will be challenging to the seasoned shooters, while still fun and educational for the new shooters (no one should go home with a score sheet full of zeros). This is a delicate balance to maintain, and I cannot maintain it while trying to account for those who want to bring unfit equipment. They would more than likely go home with zeros, tell their friends that PRS is stupid and I'm a jackass.

That is what I meant by not setting people up for failure. I don't want anyone to go home with a sheet full of zeros. If there is enough interest, I would consider holding a similar match for the "designated marksman" crowd. Larger targets, shorter max range, some close range stuff integrated, semi-autos only, max of 308, and maybe a limit on glass magnification or something. Not this year though, maybe next.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 12:47:22 AM by wallace11bravo »

Offline kozball

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2013, 08:17:22 AM »
I would love to do this, but can't convince myself without having a clue as to what I am doing.

In my search for knowledge on long range shooting, I came across a website

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/

that seems to have some great information for people like me that are un-knowlegeable.
Check out the articles and the library as it contains lots of dope pages to assist in building your data book.

Now if JTH and Mud would meet me at ENGC, we could practice and share our experiences  :-[
 I'll bring my steel plates.  :D

Anybody else on a weekend?
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Offline JTH

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2013, 08:52:21 AM »
If there is enough interest, I would consider holding a similar match for the "designated marksman" crowd. Larger targets, shorter max range, some close range stuff integrated, semi-autos only, max of 308, and maybe a limit on glass magnification or something. Not this year though, maybe next.

I'd guess that you'd get a LOT of interest in this sort of thing.  A huge amount, actually. 

Given that most people just don't have the range to shoot past 600, and shooting close and far IS fun, plus many people around here like pulling out their ARs for shooting, I'm thinking people would really like this.  (As a suggestion, the limit on magnification would be better served by using tape as opposed to making people switch out their optics.)
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Offline gsd

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2013, 09:04:44 AM »
Bkoenig thinks I should do this with the AR10 I just built.

I think my skills need improving first lol
It is highly likely the above post may offend you. I'm fine with that.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 09:15:08 AM »
A DMR style shoot does sound like fun.

Question - for improvised positions where you can't use a bipod from prone, is a sling an acceptable shooting aid?

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2013, 09:16:54 AM »
That's a good idea, Koz.  We should get a bunch of people together for a practice session, even if we can't get all the way out to 900.

Offline kozball

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2013, 10:15:34 AM »
That's a good idea, Koz.  We should get a bunch of people together for a practice session, even if we can't get all the way out to 900.

Gotta start somewhere. I need to zero yet, so 600 is plenty at this point. Had planned on my zero at 200yds. The range at ENGC does go downhill IIRC. Brings a minor adjustment to your dope. Maybe?

Need to check the schedule, but I would bet that a Saturday after about 3 would give us a pretty clear range. ...................gotta figure out if RO needs to be present, since I have never used the 600 range.

So, yes, I would love to get together and share some ideas and knowledge ( or lack of ) with a few other rookies.

Saturday May 11, ENGC has XTC match on the 600 that ends at 3pm ??

Anybody interested for May 11 at 3pm? Supposed to be windy.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 10:26:21 AM by kozball »
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2013, 10:44:56 AM »
I'm tied up this weekend and the next so I can't make it.  Does ENGC allow guests to shoot?

Offline RLMoeller

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2013, 11:16:28 AM »
ENGC members may bring guests, yes.  I think it's $5 per guest, max 3.  Member must stay with the guests.

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »
Question - for improvised positions where you can't use a bipod from prone, is a sling an acceptable shooting aid?

The sling does see some use for unsupported positions in PRS, but generally, if you are trying to use it with improvised support, it will often prove too cumbersome to be very useful under time constraint. Shooting a completely unsupported position is fairly rare in PRS.

The range at ENGC does go downhill IIRC. Brings a minor adjustment to your dope. Maybe?
...................gotta figure out if RO needs to be present, since I have never used the 600 range.

In order: Yes it has some slope. I would zero on the 300 or 100 before I bothered trying to fix my zero off of a ~.90ish (going completely off memory) slope. Just making things more complicated than they need to be. The 600 does not require an RO, unless something major has changed since I was there last. Also, watch your bore offset when shooting from the prone up there, unless they fixed it, you may have to move forward of the roof quite a bit.


http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/


Is a great website, probably one of the best. Snipershide.com has a lot of resources, just use the search function. The snipershide online training is pretty good. The magpul PR video has (I'm using this word liberally here) "some" good info, but it is also a lot of gear pushing, and they skip past alot of the fundamentals.

Koz has the right idea though... do some research and get out and shoot!! Help each other, and if I have time, I'll come and shoot with you. If you read the match site carefully, everything that will be in the match is on there. Either it is hinted at or just flat out stated. For example: I recommend having a method of ranging targets, this tells you...? If it is not hinted at or mentioned in the match webpage, you probably don't need to worry about it :)

Also, please get in the habit of keeping your bolts open, mags out, and muzzles up during movement. These three things are weird to most new shooters, who are used to relying on safeties and carrying at the low ready, and I really don't want to DQ anyone.

*Mags out is only used for longer and awkward movements, normally keeping your bolt open (or just safety on for semi autos) will be fine for shorter/simpler movements.

*For semi-autos, the absolute best way to do this is load magazines for each firing point. If position one has 4 rounds, load a mag with four rounds. Fire at that position, your bolt locks to the rear, flip to safe, drop your mag, and you are ready to go. This can also be handy for bolt guns, so you don't end up like me and loosing time because you automatically ran the bolt after the last round, and now you have to go back through and clear your weapon before you can move.

I'd guess that you'd get a LOT of interest in this sort of thing.  A huge amount, actually. 

I figured as much. I'm going to do quite a bit of research before attempting such a thing, as the rules have to be carefully crafted to keep the true PR guys out :) And the stages have to be crafted to be both conducive and challenging to the DM crowd. Alot of the stages for the PR match simply won't translate over very well.

BTW, I think you will really enjoy the pistol integrated into the stages of this match.

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2013, 01:02:36 PM »
What I might suggest for a first practice session. I often bring my laptop to the range with me so I can do this in one sitting. While not as good quality, you can do all of this inside of 600.

Developing a baseline algorithm:

1. Shoot through a chronograph 5 times, average the number. If you don't have a chrony, just guesstimate using others results (google search) or your ballistic calculator's database, if it has one.
2. Input data into a ballistic calculator, ensure all information is correct to the best of your knowledge.
3. Save and print it off if necessary.

Truing an algorithm:

1. Set at least two (preferable more) targets up at varying ranges between 300 and 1000. I usually go with 450, 600, and 800. Be sure of the range to the targets. I use GPS for this.

2. Record accurate atmospheric info.

3. Adjust from your baseline to get solid center mass hits. If you are already spot on at all ranges, you are a lucky SOB.

4. Record your dope. We are mostly worried about elevation here, not so much wind.

5. Do steps three and four for each target. Repeat step two if necessary.

6. Go back to your ballistic calculator, pull up your saved algorithm from before. Find the truing function. In exbal it is called "trajectory validation." I'm not sure for other calculators, but a google search or referencing the calculators instructions would probably prove fruitful. If your calculator doesn't have this function (such as most free online ones) you will have to adjust manually.

7. You enter your recorded data into the trajectory validation, including atmospherics. You should be able to put in at least 4 targets on any decent calculator. The program will then correct your algorithm by adjusting your muzzle velocity to what it actually is. (Even high end chronies are +/- 40fps) It should normally not mess with any other values. You can see here why consistent velocity is essential.

8. This is now your algorithm. If your going to print it off, set temp and humidity to nominal (I use 60 degrees F), and print off three different versions. One version at 500 feet density altitude (will be used for 0-1000), one at 1500 (will be used at 1000-2000), and one at 2500 (those will usually serve well for this area, although the density altitude rarely drops below 1000). I usually go with range intervals of 50, but that is all up to you. Make sure to save this algorithm, as you may find it needs further refinement.

If you believe any refinement is necessary beyond this point, it is time to set up targets and record solid data from 100-1000 in increments of 100. Retrue your algorithm like you did before. Then set your field conditions to what they really were. Start playing with the BC till it looks just perfect with every single target you recorded. Then you are good to go.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 01:54:37 PM by wallace11bravo »

Offline kozball

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2013, 01:48:22 PM »
My head hurts  ???

Lets see here, learn to shoot the old fashioned way by ranging thru your scope and throwing more ammo down range than I can afford, or the new way with a bunch of expensive gadgets that tells you what to do the 1st shot so you waste less ammo.
Quite the dilemma for the pure sport shooter.

All is good here, just my brain on overload.  ;)
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Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Its On: The Second Amendment Preservation Precision Rifle Challenge
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2013, 01:59:19 PM »
About the only thing you really need is a ballistic calculator. There are apps for most phones that are decent and have the truing function.

For weather data: Interwebs. There are weather data stations everywhere and the data can be found online. Better close than nothing.

The only thing you end up actually using in the field is a small piece of paper, usually taped to your rifle somewhere.