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Author Topic: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY  (Read 8371 times)

Offline Kendahl

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2013, 12:24:39 AM »
Are you from Florida by chance…maybe the Tampa area?
No, I live in Omaha. On the whole, I am relieved that Zimmerman was acquitted. The prosecution wanted the jury to jump to a conclusion for which there was not adequate evidence and the jury refused to go along.

All we really know about that night is that Martin and Zimmerman got into a fight which ended in Martin's death. Witness testimony and physical evidence cover details of the fight. They don't cover how it started and that is crucial to determining who was the aggressor and who was the defender. Had Zimmerman not been armed, he very likely would have died. Then it would have been Martin on trial and being acquitted due to insufficient evidence.

I am inclined to believe Zimmerman's story. It sounds like what a well meaning, but rather inept, person would do when concerned about the safety of his neighborhood. But I sure can't prove it by the available evidence.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2013, 08:54:24 AM »
Not being a lawyer,  AAllen,  I haven't  divined the depths  of those three terms, but perhaps Wikipedia could use an edit or two?    I agree with your assertion that the definitions of words mean something.   Much of the conflict in  this country is because groups have their own special meaning of basic words ... to the  extent that they become code words that mean something entirely different.   Simple words, like "is", or "peace" etc...

Meanwhile, here are some facts about Florida and "justifiable homicide".

Database: Justifiable homicides in Florida
http://databases.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/ftlaudjustified/ftlaudjustifiable_list.php?orderby=aOffenderRace&ctrl=1&ctrl=1
"The number of justifiable homicides committed by police and civilians in Florida rose dramatically in 2005. after the state's Stand Your Ground law was enacted. The law allows a civilian who feels threatened to use deadly force without attempting to flee."

The database holds data from 2000 to 2010.  For that period there are 652 records.   They show that over those eleven years, of the 583 Blacks killed,  129 Blacks were killed by Whites.  The remainder were killed by Police, Blacks or other ethnic groups.  Twenty Whites were killed by Blacks.   The worst year was 2009, when 105 people were killed.   Of those, 20 Blacks were killed by Whites, 8 Whites were killed by Blacks, and 19 Blacks were killed by other Blacks.

As the graph in the article shows, there was more than a two-fold rise in deaths after the passage of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

The FBI recorded 261 "Justifiable Homicides" in 2009:
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_15.html



Ten months ago a Black woman shot a White man over a minor accident.  She said she felt threatened when he approached her car and pounded on her window while shouting, and shot one time through the window, striking him in the chest.  Another person standing 15 feet away said he didn't hear any  shouting and took notice of the incident when he heard the gun shot.
http://www.speroforum.com/a/ABTQXCNTFM32/73128-Black-woman-stands-her-ground-kills-white-man#.UePmIOHohYA

She was charged six months later, after a grand jury  indicted her:
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Woman-who-says-she-shot-man-in-self-defense-after-fender-bender-now-faces-charges-191919771.html
"Kyle Aucoin said no evidence exists that his son touched Scott's car after the minor traffic accident.
"Jonathan had his hands up. He was backing away, but she wouldn't let it go," Aucoin said after the indictment against Scott was returned.
"She was determined that she was going to kill him," Aucoin said.."
Deputies at the time of the shooting said Scott had a concealed handgun license for the weapon used. The grand jury essentially decided that that alone isn’t enough to call the shooting self defense.
“In this town, this county and this state, a concealed handgun license is not a license to kill,” said Attorney Brian Wice.


Of course, there are other interpretation of the events.  The most radical is one by a Marxist group demanding her immediate release:
http://uhurunews.com/story?resource_name=free-crystal-scott-defend-and-protect-the-african-woman

Crystal Scott was charged with murder.    So far, the case has only been covered by local news outlets.  The major media, including Fox News, is silent.


Eight months later a petition was circulated demanding justice:
https://www.change.org/petitions/houston-police-department-and-the-texas-state-attorney-s-office-immediately-arrest-crystal-scott-with-murder-in-the-death-of-jonathan-ables
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 10:38:25 AM by GreyGeek »

Offline AAllen

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2013, 11:02:38 AM »
GreyGeek, there is no personal direction with the definition thing.  I keep pointing it out because every time we go to the legislature to try to make improvements to our self defense laws everyone keeps writing their Senators asking for the "Castle Doctrine" and since we already have it our bills go nowhere.

Since you are doing some research on Justifiable Homicides in Florida, could you also take a look at the violent crimes and general Homicides for the same time period.  If I remember correctly the overall violent crime rate had gone up by an even larger percentage than had the Justifiable Homicide numbers, and the overall Homicide numbers had gone up roughly the same (slightly more) as the Justifiable numbers, and the area where the Justifiable numbers jumped for the most part were police shootings.  This could be considered normal since the police were interacting with a more violent criminal than they had in the past, it is their job to make contact with criminals.

My memory of stats may be wrong, it was something I was looking into about a year ago and never got the time to complete my research, so the article I was going to write died due to lack of time.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:17:30 AM by AAllen »

Offline unfy

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2013, 03:00:40 PM »
So, I wake up, read today's headlines.

I weep for my country.
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline farmerbob

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2013, 06:31:22 PM »
It might seem a little harsh to accuse Trayvons parents of bad parenting, yet it's seems more Logical then blaming the state of Florida, guns or racism.

This kid clearly had a propensity for violence and illegal drugs.  Time and time again I've seen kids get into illegal drugs and finance their habit with breaking and enterings and robberies.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit if he wasn't part of the crime problem in the neighborhood.

 I had a cousin that was my age, who had a bright future ahead of him,
who ruined his life doing the same thing, drugs and break-ins.

I find it hard to believe that Trayvon's parents couldn't see their son was heading in a downward spiral.
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2013, 07:22:11 PM »
everyone keeps writing their Senators asking for the "Castle Doctrine" and since we already have it our bills go nowhere.

Is there a specific section  of the Nebraska code which  one could label as the "Castle Law",  or is the doctrine assumed based on other laws?   And if so, which ones?   I ask because several sources say that Nebraska is  one of six states  that  do NOT have a Castle Doctrine law.

Quote
Since you are doing some research on Justifiable Homicides in Florida, could you also take a look at the violent crimes and general Homicides for the same time period.

I'll do that.


Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2013, 09:27:26 AM »
Quote
Does this mean Obama is a "White Negro" "White African American" since he is half caucasian?

The word "Negro" which is nearly as insulting as "Ni**er" is not a logical substitution for either of the two descriptive words used for George Zimmerman.  Neither "White" nor "Hispanic" are considered insults.

While I agree that this is a ridiculous use of words by liberals to make this a race issue, may I suggest that our organization is not one for white gun owners only?  We as a group don't want to push away other ethnicities. Having them join our ranks and understanding of the 2A would greatly help our fight.

Fly
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Offline GreyGeek

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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2013, 10:52:11 AM »
The word "Negro" which is nearly as insulting as "Ni**er" is not a logical substitution for either of the two descriptive words used for George Zimmerman.  Neither "White" nor "Hispanic" are considered insults.

While I agree that this is a ridiculous use of words by liberals to make this a race issue, may I suggest that our organization is not one for white gun owners only?  We as a group don't want to push away other ethnicities. Having them join our ranks and understanding of the 2A would greatly help our fight.

Fly

While the United Negro Collage Fund  uses  that term, and  the NAACP uses the term "colored",  and those terms were terms of respect in times past in the White culture, James Brown, with one of his songs, started the "Black is beautiful" movement to inspire Black pride during the turbulent times of the 60's and 70's.   

A complete history of the term "Negro" is given here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3jPFh_vj3GAC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=why+the+term+%22negro%22+is+offensive&source=web&ots=8w1Owy8I1a&sig=kPzPVwRpjJW5fr_QC9cwK5bmpg8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#v=onepage&q=why%20the%20term%20%22negro%22%20is%20offensive&f=false

Read that and you'll understand how the term arose and why it is offensive.

My mother's side of the family is from the South and a LOT of southerners have some amount of Black DNA, even if they look White.   There is a suggestion that some of her ancestors were from the Seminole Indian tribe.

So, if the NFOA were a White's Only club I wouldn't be here.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2013, 12:53:56 PM »
All interesting GreyGeek. Language is a funny thing. What is acceptable today, is taboo tomorrow regardless of the users intent. Flight attendants used to be proud to be called a stewardess. Now you are likely to be accosted (at least verbally) if you use that term. Furthermore, it always seems to be the oppressed or those at the bottom of the totem pole that seek new titles to feel better. All the while doctors remain "doctors" and pilots stay "pilots".

Regardless of the history of the word "negro" and whether it was acceptable at one time, I dare anyone to go around referring to blacks as "negros". That may work out just fine in an isolated all white small town, but in a bigger city will likely result in the next Zimmerman-esque case for us to follow.

Quote
So, if the NFOA were a White's Only club I wouldn't be here.

Agreed. My statement stands. If it is currently considered offensive to a group, then we are hurting our cause by using it. Just my opinion.

Fly
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 12:57:40 PM by OnTheFly »
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline CitizenClark

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2013, 02:23:47 PM »
Quote from: GreyGeek
Is there a specific section  of the Nebraska code which  one could label as the "Castle Law",  or is the doctrine assumed based on other laws?   And if so, which ones?   I ask because several sources say that Nebraska is  one of six states  that  do NOT have a Castle Doctrine law.

See Neb. Rev. Stat. §28-1409:

Quote
(4) The use of deadly force shall not be justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily harm, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, nor is it justifiable if:

(a) The actor, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

(b) The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

(i) The actor shall not be obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and

(ii) A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape shall not be obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.
...

(5) Except as required by subsections (3) and (4) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do, or abstaining from any lawful action.


Offline Policista

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2013, 07:47:18 PM »
LAPD fights back against violent protesters:
http://www.policeone.com/news/6325432-LAPD-fights-back-against-violent-protesters/?source=newsletter&nlid=6325447

I was reading the member's comments following this article. I'm not sure if anyone not subscribed to PoliceOne.com can view
the posts, but I would like to share this posting of: civ.mil cop in mo:

"I am an American and a Police Officer who just happens have been born with Black Skin and I have to say that I am sick of Rev. Al, Rev. Jesse and all of the rest of the so called Black Leaders who claim to speak for all of us.

These folks pick and choose the matters that they Protest and get people fired up about. What happened to Mr. Martin and Mr. Zimmeran was tragic and there were NO WINNERS!

Now having grown up in and worked in a large Urban Area I have seen the ever increasing Murders and Violence through the decades, My one question is when will Black America wake up, stop being sheep and tell these talking heads to either start protesting the REAL problem which are the Gang Bangers, Drug Dealers and the types who take over areas and make the Good People either live in fear or move to an area that they really cannot afford to live in or SHUT THE HELL UP, MOVE OVER and MAKE WAY for the Real Leaders who want progress!

And one last thing I REALLY hate the term African American, I was born and raised right here in the United States of America and that makes me an AMERICAN who's Great Grand Parents were born Slaves but died free and passed down the Ethics of Hard Work, Hand Up NOT Handouts and Respect is earned not given plain and simple and ANYBODY who doesn't like it can KISS MY GRITS!

Stay Safe Strong and Always Trust The God You Serve!!!!!!!!!"
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Offline unfy

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2013, 07:51:35 PM »
Looking across twitter and stuff, I see plenty of folks talking about 'being better than this' regarding those that are supporting the riots etc.

They don't address the fact that media and talking heads have been feeding them b.s., but it's still nice to see folks shaking their heads ... even if in a semi-arrogant way.  A step in the right direction is a step none the less.
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2013, 09:17:47 PM »
Bringing Up Some Issues Regarding The Socioethnic Double-Standard Here........

Quote
I dare anyone to go around referring to blacks as "negros.

Two Related Cases in Point:
United Negro College Fund
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

Both of these organizations freely use proscribed appellations for members of their constituencies.    However, others---as said above---cannot.

At least they cannot without the Race Baiters, Race Mongers, Race Shills, and their Media Hounds baying hotly on the trail in pursuit.

Some might call this set of circumstances a Double Standard.   In a land where equality is the Golden Rule.

Go Figger.

sfg




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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2013, 11:16:55 PM »
(b) The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

(i) The actor shall not be obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be

Those two clauses put severe restrictions on the use of concealed weapons for personal defense and almost forbids their use to defend yourself at work and  in public places.[/b]   

How can one know that a retreat can be done "with complete safety"  until after the retreat is done?   What if, while retreating, the bad guy decides he doesn't like what you are doing and shoots you?   Not being able to shoot until you are shot at, or shot, defeats the purpose of a CHP and demands you play Russian Roulette with him, but he gets the first shot.    Say you, fearful he might shoot if you retreat, shoot at him first?   At your trial the prosecutor will claim you didn't try to retreat, or retreat far enough.  How do you prove otherwise?   

Secondly, part (b) also requires the concealed carrier to give up anything and everything the bad guy asks for and, on top  of that, if the bad guy demands that you hand over any concealed weapon or do some other action that would be disadvantageous to you and you refuse you have broken the law.  IOW, the law seems to give the bad guy all the rights and the victim no chance at protecting his property or person, i.e.  self-defense ... except ...

Part (i) when you are at home and your home is invaded. (I guess that is the "Castle  Doctrine" part.)  At work you don't have to retreat, PROVIDED that the bad guy doesn't work there also.   If he does you can't defend yourself.   What if you didn't know that he worked there and you  use your weapon to defend yourself?   Russian roulette again.  More than likely you'll be prosecuted.    It's like the legislature is favoring the bad guy.  It will be especially bad if the prosecutor is like those in the Sanford, FL case -- zealous anti-2A types.

Now, personally, I wouldn't consider defending someone else when they have had the same opportunity to gain a CHP that I have and have chosen not to.   And, I wouldn't consider using my CHP to protect a vendor's property by shooting at even an armed robber, if he wasn't threatening me.   Insurance can replace property, not lives.   But,  why carry concealed when the law requires that you must give to  the thug the personal possessions or yours that he demands?  To the thug, what's his is his, and what yours is his also.  The legislature seems to agree.

I'll be blunt.  The people who wrote that law live in Ivory Towers and have NEVER been robbed, raped or murdered, nor have they had loved ones robbed, raped or murdered.  If they had, they wouldn't have loaded the deck to favor the thieving and life of the thug.

This puts a new light on the "Stand  Your Ground" Law.   It's time Nebraska had that law.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 11:21:11 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline unfy

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2013, 11:42:17 PM »
Quote
with complete safety by retreating

If you can't retreat with complete safety (ie: getting out of the door requires going across the barrel of a gun)...

Quote
surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto

Vaguely written, yeah.  Good intention of 'things arent worth someones life', but erf.  I'm not sure legal definition of thievery vs 'claim of right' ... cause.. your pointing out of "gimme your gun"  is cute.

Quote
complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take

Defending yourself or your family is a duty IMHO.  Dunno legal opinion of that though.

Quote
initial aggressor

Don't pick the fight, easy enough.

Quote
or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be

Gotta take this in it's full reading IMHO.  The opening of (i) relates to retreating with no periods or semicolons, etc.  Thus, this is "you still should attempt to safely retreat if a coworker is acting dangerously".



edit: my point is, it's not as bleak as you make it out to be ;).  They're generally trying to work around vigilante problems. And if ya show that it was an immediate life threatening situation you'll probably be okay.  As an example: handing your carry weapon over would easily be considered putting yourself in danger heh.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 11:48:18 PM by unfy »
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline AWick

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2013, 12:26:25 AM »
This is the section of the code that I was looking at and wondering about:

"The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety" by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take...

How do you know that you can avoid a situation with complete safety if an attacker is pointing a gun at you or your family member? Are you suppose to take his or her word on it? So if they say, "give me your money!" you can use force, but if they say, "give me your money and I won't kill you, Scouts Honor!" you can't shoot!?

Man if that were the case I would've turned to burglary a LONG time ago... jk of course... my mother laid down the Lord's wrath on me when I ate two grapes at the grocery store when I was 8... I've been on the straight and narrow ever since  :laugh:

Also, If I'm driving through a rough neighborhood and my family and I get car jacked, I'm pretty sure that we're not going to be able to retreat to "complete safety"... more like stranded for the rest of the wolves to devour...
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline unfy

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2013, 04:50:08 AM »
If there's a gun pointed at you during the commission of a crime - your life is in immediate peril. No ifs ands or buts 
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2013, 07:29:19 AM »
So if they say, "give me your money!" you can use force,

As I understand how the law is written, it completely forbids you using force to resist a thug taking your money.
Quote
... or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto...

The law doesn't even give you the opportunity to deny the thug's claim to your personal property.  And, if the thug keeps his hand in his pocket while claiming to have a gun and you shoot him, you'll most likely get the Zimmerman treatment, and consider it lucky if you don't end up in prison.

It all boils down to the question of "do you want to be buried by six or tried by twelve?"

Offline Dan W

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Re: Zimmerman: NOT GUILTY
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2013, 12:11:54 PM »
... or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto...

 The claim has to meet a legal threshold of being a legitimate claim to a disputed property
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