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Author Topic: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole  (Read 5079 times)

Offline CitizenClark

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White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« on: August 22, 2013, 04:18:04 PM »
http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/pending-regs/318133-white-house-reviewing-draft-gun-control-rule

White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole

The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is working on a new regulation that would require more background information when the weapons are sold to someone through a corporation or legal trust.

That would eliminate a discrepancy between sales to individuals and those to legal entities, including so-called “gun trusts,” which firearms enthusiasts have used to acquire the weapons without going through normal channels.

On Tuesday, the ATF sent the proposed regulation to the White House for a 90-day review, a final step before the draft rule is unveiled to the public.

Normally, when an individual buys a machine gun or short-barreled shotgun, they have to submit their fingerprints and picture to the ATF, and the local chief law enforcement officer has to assert that there is no reason to believe it would be illegal for the buyer to own the gun.

However, those same requirements don’t apply when the gun is bought in the name of a corporation or legal trust instead of an individual person.
It is illegal in the United States for civilians to purchase machine guns made after 1986.

The trusts can be formed relatively easily by a lawyer and cost a few hundred dollars. Aside from the ease of securing restricted weapons, they also assure that gun owners’ firearms will be transferred to their loved ones when they die without going through bureaucratic channels.

A spokesman with the ATF declined to detail the measures of the new proposal, since it is still in draft form.

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”

The new rule will only apply to sale of machine guns, silencers and similar firearms for which the AFT has special restrictions.

According to reports, the number of applications to transfer restricted guns to trusts has skyrocketed in the recent years, to more than 39,000 last year.
In the wake of Republican opposition to gun control measures in Congress, the Obama administration has had little recourse but to target guns through executive action.

Obama had pushed congressional action in response to December’s shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., but Senate Republicans halted a measure to expand background checks, effectively killing chances of new legislation.

Offline AWick

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 04:28:59 PM »
And they need to change this why!? When was the last time a legal NFA was used in a crime? Any crime? Oh... never!? ... perfect, we need to change it just because then...
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 04:39:35 PM »
I wonder how this will affect existing trusts.

Offline RobertH

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2013, 05:37:48 PM »
no criminal will pay the money, pass a background check or wait several months for an approval.  complete garbage.
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Offline FarmerRick

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2013, 05:56:36 PM »
FBHO
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Offline Burnsy87

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 09:13:30 PM »
I got two Form 4's in the system.  I'll be beyond irate if they get kicked back to me due to the use of a Trust.

Rick is right.  FBHO.

Offline David Hineline

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2013, 12:37:41 AM »
This is not new, this has been in the work for years,  BATFE has never liked trusts because a firearm transfers with no background check of a person, they worked with a group called NFATCA  which is the NFA firearms industry lobby, http://www.nfatca.org/
and this is what was come up with.

I posted this info in Feb.


http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,7093.0.html
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Offline Mntnman

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2013, 08:22:34 AM »
Um, they wouldn't need one republican vote to get it through the senate, but republicans killed it. Hmmm-mmm.

Offline CitizenClark

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2013, 10:29:45 AM »
This is not new, this has been in the work for years,  BATFE has never liked trusts because a firearm transfers with no background check of a person, they worked with a group called NFATCA  which is the NFA firearms industry lobby, http://www.nfatca.org/
and this is what was come up with.

I posted this info in Feb.


http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,7093.0.html

Yes, we discussed the notice of proposed rulemaking before. This article is new, however, as is the tidbit about the NPRM advancing to the 60-day review stage of the rulemaking process as of Tuesday. Another new tidbit that we didn't have before is the information about a notice going to CLEOs on all NFA transfers (presumably once the CLEO sign-off is done away with).

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the assertion that there is no background check on a trust transfer. There is, just not a fingerprint-based check. See 9.12.1 of the NFA Handbook:

Quote
"9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60 in the ATF FAQs."

Finally, the fact that the eForms changes that just rolled out make it advantageous to use a trust (since individual transfers requiring fingerprints and photographs can't go through the electronic system, presumably because ATF wants original copies of fingerprint cards) seems to run counter to the idea that ATF "has never liked trusts." Why shave two months (the current time to go pending on a paper application) off the process for trust transfers and transfers to business entities if they are interested in actively discouraging the use of trusts?

Offline CitizenClark

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 10:44:35 AM »
I wonder how this will affect existing trusts.

It is impossible to say for sure without seeing the actual wording of the proposed rule changes.

Offline CitizenClark

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2013, 10:45:27 AM »
no criminal will pay the money, pass a background check or wait several months for an approval.  complete garbage.

Yep, this is just for show. "We're cracking down on guns (that no one ever uses in crimes)!"

Offline Hardwood83

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2013, 10:22:29 AM »
I wonder how this will affect existing trusts.

I would expect it to go into effect for new applications starting at some point in the future.

Oh that and FBHO.
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Offline David Hineline

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 09:04:55 AM »
It has been clearly worded in the link I posted and no new surprises were added.



Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
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Offline David Hineline

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »
The CLEO certification will be gone, so it will not be up to the whim of local LE whether or not you get to possess NFA items.
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Offline CitizenClark

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2013, 02:57:23 PM »
The CLEO certification will be gone, so it will not be up to the whim of local LE whether or not you get to possess NFA items.

That would be a great development. A related, but not-so-great development is the proposed automatic notice to law enforcement on all NFA transfers. Currently, using a trust, corporation, or other business entity affords more privacy in this regard.

I personally know of a public official who chose to use a trust specifically to avoid the political ramifications of other officials in his small town finding out that he has NFA items.

Offline FarmerRick

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2013, 09:26:31 AM »
Headline on Drudge Report this morning... 

Obama offers new gun control steps

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-obama-offers-new-gun-control-steps

WASHINGTON (AP) — Striving to take action where Congress would not, the Obama administration announced new steps Thursday on gun control, curbing the import of military surplus weapons and proposing to close a little-known loophole that lets felons and others circumvent background checks by registering guns to corporations.

Four months after a gun control drive collapsed spectacularly in the Senate, President Barack Obama added two more executive actions to a list of 23 steps the White House determined Obama could take on his own to reduce gun violence. With the political world focused on Mideast tensions and looming fiscal battles, the move signaled Obama's intent to show he hasn't lost sight of the cause he took up after 20 first graders and six adults were gunned down last year in an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.

One new policy will end a government practice that lets military weapons, sold or donated by the U.S. to allies, be reimported into the U.S. by private entities, where some may end up on the streets. The White House said the U.S. has approved 250,000 of those guns to be reimported since 2005; under the new policy, only museums and a few other entities like the government will be eligible to reimport military-grade firearms.

The Obama administration is also proposing a federal rule to stop those who would be ineligible to pass a background check from skirting the law by registering a gun to a corporation or trust. The new rule would require people associated with those entities, like beneficiaries and trustees, to undergo the same type of fingerprint-based background checks as individuals if they want to register guns.

     ~~~ See more at link ~~~
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2013, 09:29:07 AM »
And that's the end of CMP Garands.  I hate him so very much.

Offline RLMoeller

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2013, 09:53:00 AM »
 :angry:

Offline RobertH

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2013, 11:58:49 AM »
FBHO!

looks like i'm going 30cal suppressor shopping right meow!  there's no way i'm getting myself and my wife fingerprinted.

on a side note, the article just mentions corps.  will the same happen to trusts as well?  and when does the 90 day comment start?
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2013, 12:09:23 PM »
FBHO!

looks like i'm going 30cal suppressor shopping right meow!  there's no way i'm getting myself and my wife fingerprinted.

on a side note, the article just mentions corps.  will the same happen to trusts as well?  and when does the 90 day comment start?


Yep, I've been holding off on another Form 1 but I think I'm going to have to put one in now.

This is going to send NFA wait times through the roof.  Everyone who's been on the fence is going to be sending in forms.