NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: RobertH on November 05, 2014, 11:21:53 PM
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for Black Friday, i'm going to be buying a jig and maybe an 80% lower or two. while i can buy a jig with carbide drill bits and an end mill, is there any place locally (Lincoln) that sells these bits:
3/8" drill bit
5/32" drill bit
19/64" drill bit
1/4 x 4" end mill (3 or 4 flute)
the tool kits online are roughly $45 for the carbide bits. online, the prices are about the same or even higher. i'd like to help out a local company if i can and see what i'm buying in person.
PS - i stopped by Harbor Freight, Menards and Home Depot and could not find those bits or end mill.
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the hard part ive found is finding a 1/4 inch mill that long,
M.S.C. supply, http://www.mscdirect.com/?cid=ppc-bing-Brand+Core_Bbn41ZG6_msc%20industrial%20supply_e_3281047841_c&mkwid=Bbn41ZG6&pcrid=3281047841&002=2167518&004=426256217&005=6025434725&006=3281047841&009=e&011=msc%20industrial%20supply (http://www.mscdirect.com/?cid=ppc-bing-Brand+Core_Bbn41ZG6_msc%20industrial%20supply_e_3281047841_c&mkwid=Bbn41ZG6&pcrid=3281047841&002=2167518&004=426256217&005=6025434725&006=3281047841&009=e&011=msc%20industrial%20supply)
ENCO http://www.use-enco.com/1/3/milling-machine-cutting-tools (http://www.use-enco.com/1/3/milling-machine-cutting-tools)
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i found several options that are close on Amazon and eBay, but i'd rather not do business with anti-gun leanings.
i've been leaning towards the Modulus Arms universal jig and tool kit. hopefully Black Friday will be nice to me. i also wouldn't mind having a spare end mill too.
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there tool kit only shows one mill drill bit, you need a mill-drill bit, it can mill on the side and also drill a hole, but you need a 3/8 mill. and a 1/4 inch mill, you also need a mill with at least 1 1/2 inch of cutting surface, that one looks like a standard 5/8 inch cut length. also, the holes in the jig do not have hardened inserts in it,
if you want to, come on over and look at mine, that will give you a idea of the difference
also you do not drill the holes for the pins and saftey to size, you first drill the pin holes with a 9/64 drill bit, then you have to ream them to .156
the safety you use a 23/64 drill and ream that to.376.
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Carbide and aluminum don't go well, high speed steel works best.
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What Sparky said... ^^^^
Use High Speed Steel drill bits. Carbide can and will likely ruin the drill guides in your jig and certainly isn't needed to work aluminum.
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So use high speed drill bits but carbide end mill is ok?
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High Speed Steel for the end mill as well. There are actually end mills made specifically for aluminum aren't necessary. Be sure to use a good cutting lubricant. I use Rapid-Tap for aluminum.
Check industrial tool suppliers in the Yellow Pages for Lincoln but you'll likely have the best luck online.
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Productivity Inc
8402 S 117th St,
La Vista, NE 68128
(402) 330-2323
Is where I buy my end mills. I have not had any issues using carbide to finish 80% lowers, in fact I prefer carbide over HSS.
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off the top of my head, the 80% manufacturers suggest using carbide bits, that is why i was planning on using carbide. some of the carbide bits i have found on the net said they are designed for aircraft aluminum and some reviewers said they used it on an 80% lower.
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Grainger is in Lincoln. You could also try fastenal
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Fastenal has end mills in stock for a reasonable price. If you plan to use a drill press, good luck.
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after some searching today, i have prices of jigs and tool kits written down, so when (or if) any of the 80% lower makers have a sale, i will be able to see how much savings there really is. i think buying a jig and tool kit will hopefully be easier on me not having to go hunt down the right bits. i plan on using a universal jig, so i can do almost any lower without much fitting. i also plan on using a drill and router.
has anyone used the Modulus Arms universal jib, 80% Arms Easy jig, Juggernaut Tactical universal jig or the North West Custom Precision universal jig?
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I've bought a few things from Ares Armor. An 80% lower is on the horizon. They have good deals and equipment. Haven't looked in a while but I thought they sold tool kits as well.
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your going to use a router? Ive never tried that on aluminum. but might work,
here is the jig I bought 2 of
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shooter, who makes that jig?
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OSG is the brand that most of the high-end shops use. Many are DOD contractors and their tolerances are extremely critical.
Sound advice is to invest in the right tools the first time. You just increase your overall costs when failure occurs and you have to replace that bargain tool with a better more expensive one...not to mention cost of your potentially damaged product. Just my .02
OSG Tap & Die cutting tools
402-980-1714
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I am a machinist and have finished a forged 80% lower.
Carbide bits are expensive, fragile and expensive. Carbide requires rigid machine setups and are not the best choice for occasional, lighter or more manual (like drill press and jig) work. High Speed Steel (HSS) is more forgiving and will machine aluminum very effectively at a much lower cost. Use WD-40 to keep the aluminum from cold welding (sticking) to the cutters and drills. It is best to have compressed air available to frequently clear away chips (there will be a lot for such a small project). Carbide is awesome material but can be easily chipped by handling and application errors. A sharp HSS tool will last a long time in aluminum and resist a number of errors plus a very low cost. STILL...try to stick to name brand tools bits, there are some cheap import tools that are just "look like tools" (Harbor Freight), the low cost import tools at a place like Enco, will be up to the job. It is difficult to explain the difference, but just to be aware that there is some true junk tooling out there.
Enco is a reasonable resource and allows choice of cutter quality...the cheapest tooling will work fine and do dozens of lowers if not abused (intentionally or unintentionally...machine work generally involves a lot of trial learning...the hard way).
Placement of the holes for trigger group and safety are the most critical part of finishing the lower. A decent jig makes that part fairly fool proof. Squaring up to your fixture will be critical or you can force a drill to go off course. I machined my own fixture, basically to hold the receiver for machine work and line up the jig in a milling machine so the jig guide holes are not really touched during the drilling operations. Better jigs will have hardened bushings to give more life to less sophisticated machine work, like using a drill press. As pointed out previously, carbide will cut hardened bushings and that their own path if set up incorrectly. The HSS bits are less likely to cut drill bushings (but great care should be taken to make the bits run as true as possible). Running the bits into a hole and backing out frequently will clear chips and make for truer holes (lots of WD-40). Drills do not make nice holes. Cutting undersize and using a final size reamer will produce the better results.
The lowers are forgiving to small amounts of error. A unit trigger group could possibly save a botched job. The balance of the cavity work is less critical than the trigger/safety group holes and can allow significant error and produce a functional receiver. Sticking to measurements is important, but difficult to get "mil spec" in the "drill press" type machine work many people are doing.
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Fastenal has end mills in stock for a reasonable price. If you plan to use a drill press, good luck.
No luck needed, just get a basic understanding of milling (use conventional not climb) and A LOT of patience. You are not using a milling machine and drill presses don't like a lot of side pressure, so TAKE IT SLOW and only remove about 1/8" of depth per pass. Understand that it won't be perfect and pretty like a CNC job, but done right, you will have a completely functional lower.
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well i jumped on a Modulus universal jig and two end mill bits (in case i broke one). it came to $198 shipped. Modulus Arms and 80% Arms both have Black Friday deals going on now. i picked Modulus because their jig can be used with New Frontier Armory billet lowers and 80% Arms cannot.
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well i jumped on a Modulus universal jig and two end mill bits (in case i broke one). it came to $198 shipped. Modulus Arms and 80% Arms both have Black Friday deals going on now. i picked Modulus because their jig can be used with New Frontier Armory billet lowers and 80% Arms cannot.
Good to know Robert. I want to pick up one of those New Frontier Armory Lowers. JoeBobs HAD them for $75.... not sure if they are still on sale or not.
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As far as i know the Modulus is the only jig that will fit NFA lowers, except the NFA jig. Schuyler Arms Co has annonized NFA blems for $55 plus ship. They look real good.
The BF deals plus 10% off rocks. Im excited to get started.
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When you get your jig...stick pins, drill bits, or whatever into the holes, measure with calipers and check against some drawings for dimension ( since measuring outsides of two pins, remember to subtract the radius of two pins to get the hole to hole dimension). There is more than one instance of a jig being off and the results being a botched lower (or numberous botched lowers). There are plenty of dimension drawings scattered around the web to download.
Most stuff is CNC machined reducing chances of error. However, the last 80% I cut had an endmill nick in the mag well edge where someone screwed up on a machine setting...but provided a nice "blem" price if you didn't mind the nick.
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As far as i know the Modulus is the only jig that will fit NFA lowers, except the NFA jig. Schuyler Arms Co has annonized NFA blems for $55 plus ship. They look real good.
The BF deals plus 10% off rocks. Im excited to get started.
Damnit Robert! How do I get the 10% off?
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its on their front page.... BLACKFRIDAY10
ETA: not available on BF package deals.
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got my Modulus Arms jig yesterday and here's all the parts and my two New Frontier Armory 80% lowers.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/1202141147_zpsmbjmzavc.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/1202141147b_zps838u5v0k.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/1202141147a_zpsdmekui9j.jpg)
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Impressive looking set of jigs. Looking forward to a report!
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this old thread needs to be resurrected!
i finally got around to doing a lower. i have worked on it between class and work. i also did this work when my wife and little ones are out of town.
my impressions so far, noisy, dirty with lube, my back aches and the shavings get everywhere!
first set of drill holes. i started using a cordless drill, but i soon ran out and bought a corded drill. faster RPM and more torque and no batteries to change!
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150408_142901_zpswqkt2pat.jpg)
another pic of drilling holes:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150409_130314_zpsa6iwruvy.jpg)
i thought i had a pic of my router, but i will have to update that later. and yes, my "workbench" is pretty shaky, which concerned me at first, but now i think it'll be ok. after i get it totally finished, i will report back on the final product.
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How did your router work? I just bought the DeWalt version of the Rotozip for some tile work. I'm wondering if that will work or if it spins too fast.
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i use a Bosch Colt 1 HP model. here's the website: http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=PR20EVSK (http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=PR20EVSK)
i only use it on setting 1, haven't had the need or want to go faster. i haven't broke my endmill yet, so i guess i'm doing just fine. im almost done routing the fire control area. i'll get the lower done tomorrow, unless something comes up.
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should be roughly 1,000 rpm for aluminum
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ok, here's the somewhat finished product...
milling the fire control area:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150410_005215_zpsves2lebz.jpg)
drilling the safety selector hole, trigger and hammer pins:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150410_010206_zpsscrrxzbx.jpg)
my tools: Bosch Colt 1HP router and Bosch 3/8" corded drill
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150410_005249_zpstvirvth1.jpg)
the excess 20%:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150410_072950_zpsmdcln5vc.jpg)
final product:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150410_073003_zpsyamk9ja2.jpg)
so, what did i learn? if you notice the rear of the lower, you can see i drilled down too far. that is because my drill stop decided to move up and i never noticed it. i also learned the filings get everywhere!! clothes, shoes, hands. make sure you don't drag the stuff in the house!
i do have a few final touches yet. the fire control area is a little tight. i'll have to smooth up the sides because the hammer and trigger assemblies get stuck about half way down. also the safety is really tight. i'll have to smooth up the inside because the rear of the safety is rubbing on the selector. i think the trigger and hammer pins are a little too loose for my liking. i'll get non-rotating pins for that small problem. but those problems are all minor things. in all, i think i made a darn good lower for my daughter. i have another lower that i will finish later. one lower for each daughter, built by their dad. maybe they will want to go shooting when the get older. i will also get the lowers cerakoted and engraved with their names and custom serial number later as well.
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That looks pretty darn good.
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well i had to remove quite a bit of aluminum around the safety and rear part of the trigger assembly. i can only think that i didn't mill out enough when i was milling. i couldn't see very good, so i must have been close, but not all the way back. so i used my dremel and several grinding and smoothing bits. the trigger and safety are still tight, but functional. on safe, the trigger does not move at all. my other lowers all have a little jiggle in them, so i might loosen it up a little bit, or i might leave it as is.
the takedown and pivot pins are VERY tight. i kind of like that, but then again its a pain to get them opened and closed. i might smooth out some parts on the lower so it will fit better. hopefully it will be test fired someday soon. the upper worked with a standard Anderson lower, so i hope my lower can get this upper to fire as well.
anyways, its coming together nicely:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150416_143658_zps85vivcun.jpg)
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(http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2013/7/16/brentrambooriginal.gif)
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(http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2013/7/16/brentrambooriginal.gif)
lol. im stealing this.
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my wife and kids will be out of town this weekend. this means a few things: 1. i think i'll do some shooting - like a Vintage Rifle Match and/or 22CMP and 2. FINALLY star and finish my other daughters 80% lower.
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Lucky dog! My wife is talking about going out of town for 4th to see family and she is leaving me with the kids!
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
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my wife and kids will be out of town this weekend. this means a few things: 1. i think i'll do some shooting - like a Vintage Rifle Match and/or 22CMP and 2. FINALLY star and finish my other daughters 80% lower.
well i did both things on my To-Do List. I shot the 22 CMP and finished my other daughter's 80% lower. this lower was the same as the first one, but this one went a whole lot faster and turned out even nicer. i haven't installed any components yet, but i will do that tomorrow.
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well, im done. both of my daughter's 80% lowers are done. i finished them up with two 12" ALG V3 rails. they are not fully assembled yet. i'm not sure if i should cerakote them now, or wait and have them select what color they want. decisions, decisions....
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150805_140842_zpsn44d6mwk.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g50/rchaisch/IMG_20150805_140800_zpswfdlt4jg.jpg)
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They look great Robert! I think i am going to ask for one of these lowers form Santa this year.
How are the uppers and lowers fitting up? much wiggle?
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i like the lowers. the lowers were a blem and a bare lower. they have set screws for the bolt release and for the take down pin. i might look around for another blem if i can find them cheap enough. i bought the blem from Schuyler Arms (http://www.schuylerarmsco.com/ (http://www.schuylerarmsco.com/)) and on the arfcom EE. the uppers and lowers fit pretty good. i haven't installed the pins, so i can't say for sure, but they seem like a pretty good fit.
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i like the lowers. the lowers were a blem and a bare lower. they have set screws for the bolt release and for the take down pin. i might look around for another blem if i can find them cheap enough. i bought the blem from Schuyler Arms (http://www.schuylerarmsco.com/ (http://www.schuylerarmsco.com/)) and on the arfcom EE. the uppers and lowers fit pretty good. i haven't installed the pins, so i can't say for sure, but they seem like a pretty good fit.
Let me know if you find some. If I have the cash I would split the shipping with you and rent your jig if your willing!
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
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Let me know if you find some. If I have the cash I would split the shipping with you and rent your jig if your willing!
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
ok, will do.