NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: Laufen on August 10, 2017, 10:45:53 AM
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Why do so many private citizens place an unnecessary burden on themselves for a piece of paper that has zero validity in a court of law? Private citizens are not required to record an individuals information for transfer of a firearm. Why do so many of you do this?
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Why would you not have a record of when you acquired property? Do you often walk out of a store with a major purchase without a receipt?
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Why would you not have a record of when you acquired property? Do you often walk out of a store with a major purchase without a receipt?
I get a receipt for two reasons. Tax write offs (which my firearms are not) and if I need to return the item (which I wouldn't do in a private firearm sale). If you want to remember the date you bought it, write it down.
A bill of sale provides zero legal protection, and proves nothing beyond the fact that someone wrote something on paper.
If I want record of when I acquired a firearm, I'll just make a note of it. That's totally fine, but collecting someone's personal information needlessly isn't for me. There are plenty of laws we're forced to follow already, there's no need to burden ourselves with some we create for ourselves.
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The main reason I do, is to be able to prove where I got it. just in case it winds up being a stolen weapon. I can say I bought it from this guy,
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The main reason I do, is to be able to prove where I got it. just in case it winds up being a stolen weapon. I can say I bought it from this guy,
It doesn't prove anything, and doesn't keep you out of hot water for buying a hot gun. Bills of sale provide zero legal protection.
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..r
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So....are you an actual lawyer, or just an internet one?
Also, why do you care what someone else wants to do if they sell a firearm? If it doesn't involve you, it's none of your business. If it does, then refuse to sell to/purchase from that person. There, problem solved.
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Laufen, are you beginning to see why this forum isn't very active anymore?
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Help me understand, why this is an unnecessary burden? For me it's about protecting myself. If it's stolen, at least if you have the persons contact info and gives the LEO somewhere else to look. Of course I try not to invite the "Man" into my life if at all possible.
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Help me understand, why this is an unnecessary burden? For me it's about protecting myself. If it's stolen, at least if you have the persons contact info and gives the LEO somewhere else to look. Of course I try not to invite the "Man" into my life if at all possible.
It has no legal value whatsoever. If it's stolen, you're in possession of stolen property regardless.
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So....are you an actual lawyer, or just an internet one?
Also, why do you care what someone else wants to do if they sell a firearm? If it doesn't involve you, it's none of your business. If it does, then refuse to sell to/purchase from that person. There, problem solved.
I'm just trying to figure out why so many people on here want a bill of sale when it has no legal power/value to the holder.
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Laufen, are you beginning to see why this forum isn't very active anymore?
Yeah, but echo chambers are pretty boring. It's nice to hear dissenting opinions.
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Lol, I'll bet you're a troll.....See ya... :P
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Lol, I'll bet you're a troll.....See ya... :P
No, I'm not a troll just because I have a different opinion about bills of sale, lol.
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I would not call laufen a troll. I deal with real trolls all the time when I make true statements on patriot sites, and this guy is nothing like them. I understand his point: if a bill of sale is absolutely useless in a legal sense what purpose does it serve, and why do so many people bother filling one out?
This is a good point to have brought up, because I had assumed that a paper bill of sale, presumably having been signed by the buyer, could be used as proof that a gun had been transferred on a certain date to a certain named person. So what I want to know is, is he correct in saying that the bill is of absolutely no use in a legal sense? Hopefully those who know more about the law than I know can give us an answer.
Even if it is of no legal use, say some crime was committed with the gun after you sold it and the gun was found and traced back to you. At least you would be able to give the police information on the name of the one you sold the gun to. Even if the bill of sale is not considered proof that the sale took place it could still help clear you by letting the police know the name of the one the gun was sold to, which might lead them to catch the real perpetrator. This of course is assuming you copied the buyer's name off something like a driver's license.
Another benefit it might have is that I would think a person who can not legally buy a gun would be disinclined to buy one if he had to show the seller his ID and the seller was going to copy his name off of it and keep it as a record. I met an ATF snitch awhile back (friend of a friend kind of thing) and one of the things he did to make money was try to entrap law-abiding gun owners into committing some technical violation of gun law so he could turn them in. He got paid a bounty for each one he snared. To give you an idea what a lowlife he was he is now in prison for rape of an underage girl. Would a person like that maybe be dishonest when he has a chance to make some money? I would think so. Would a paper bill of sale deter his dishonesty? I don't know, but maybe.
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Guess the following should've been the preface of my previous post,
<insert sarcasm> ;)
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OK........
The underlying premise of this post is that a bill of sale for a firearm "has no validity in law."
Most likely the Original Poster has substantial objective proof for this assertion and will be most willing to share it with Forum members so that all can be informed.
sfg
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My view is who cares? If a person wants to sell a gun and as a condition of the sale they want to execute a bill a sale then as the seller it is their prerogative to do it. And, as a potential buyer it it your prerogative not to do business with them.
I am of the opinion that while it might not completely exonerate you if a crime was committed with the gun you sold it sure would help. Consider that most on her require a CC permit or permit to purchase. Thus they have positive ID of the person and if they get the person to sign it they have his signature so hard to say " wasn't me."
Now as proof of not buying a stolen gun it isn't much use unless the seller shows you ID and signs it too.
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If a Bill of Sale has no legal standing then why am I required to provide on to the County when I go to license a vehicle in a private purchase transaction?
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If a Bill of Sale has no legal standing then why am I required to provide on to the County when I go to license a vehicle in a private purchase transaction?
For sales tax. govnt has to get there cut of every deal!
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The original post is inaccurate to begin with. A bill of sale is a form of a contract and does have standing in a legal case. First is is against the law for a person to sell a handgun to a felon, so if you get a bill of sale with a valid purchase permit and id listed it will clear you if he is found to be a felon in possession. Second if a crime is commited with the gun it will clear you of being the owner of said gun. Now do not take my word for it, read it here.
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/bill-of-sale-laws.html
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If a Bill of Sale has no legal standing then why am I required to provide on to the County when I go to license a vehicle in a private purchase transaction?
Are you talking about an automobile BOS?
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The original post is inaccurate to begin with. A bill of sale is a form of a contract and does have standing in a legal case. First is is against the law for a person to sell a handgun to a felon, so if you get a bill of sale with a valid purchase permit and id listed it will clear you if he is found to be a felon in possession. Second if a crime is commited with the gun it will clear you of being the owner of said gun. Now do not take my word for it, read it here.
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/bill-of-sale-laws.html
First, it IS illegal to knowingly sell a gun to a felon. Second, it is not required that you investigate the person you are selling to. You may not sell to a person that you know is a felon, but you are not required to dig into the person's background.
Second, if a crime were committed with the firearm, and you didn't commit the crime...VOILA! You're innocent!
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"Second, if a crime were committed with the firearm, and you didn't commit the crime.."
Absolutely, no innocent person has ever been sent to prison :)
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"Second, if a crime were committed with the firearm, and you didn't commit the crime.."
Absolutely, no innocent person has ever been sent to prison :)
In which case a BOS wouldn't do crap for you. If you think a non-notarized scrap of paper is a get out of jail free card...lol.
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Nobody says it is, but it's sure a hell of a lot better than not having one at all. It may not be perfect, but at least it shows you "tried". You verified their permit against their ID (that they presented). Unless you're sleeping with the prosecutor's wife on the side, he'll probably move on... :P
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The basic premise of this post is that a bill of sale "has no validity in law".
Bills of Sale have substantial validity in law.
The Cornell Law site shows 9 pages of Uniform Commercial Code which apply to bills of sale, starting here:
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46 CFR 67.527- Application for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in the nature of a bill of sale.
§ 67.527 Application for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in the nature of ... a bill of sale. An application fee is charged for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in ... the nature of a bill of sale in accordance with subpart P of this part. Section 67.527 ...
bill of sale
ownership and to detail what was actually purchased. A bill of sale may accompany an agreement that states ...
26 CFR 403.60- Purchaser entitled to bill of sale.
§ 403.60 Purchaser entitled to bill of sale. Each purchaser of administratively forfeited property ... is entitled to receive a suitable bill of sale. Section 403.60 ...
27 CFR 72.66- Purchaser entitled to bill of sale.
§ 72.66 Purchaser entitled to bill of sale. Each purchaser of administratively forfeited property, ... including carriers, shall be entitled to receive a suitable and authentic bill of sale on a form to be ...
46 CFR 67.89- Waiver of production of a bill of sale eligible for filing and recording.
§ 67.89 Waiver of production of a bill of sale eligible for filing and recording. (a) When the ... evidence of title passage required by this subpart is a bill of sale which meets the criteria for filing ... Center waive that requirement. (b) No waiver of the requirement to produce a bill of sale eligible for ...
19 CFR 24.34- Vouchers; vendors' bills of sale; invoices.
§ 24.34 Vouchers; vendors' bills of sale; invoices. (a) Vouchers or invoices for ... payment has not been received. Vouchers, vendors' bills of sale, or invoices for purchases or ...
46 CFR Part 67, Subpart P- Filing and Recording of Instruments- Bills of Sale and Related Instruments
§ 67.220 Requirements. § 67.223 Filing limitation. ...
46 CFR 67.75- Transfers by sale or donation subsequent to documentation.
provided in this subpart, transfers of vessel title must be evidenced by a bill of sale which meets the ... subpart O of this part, each bill of sale must be accompanied by a declaration of citizenship from the new ... owner, executed on the appropriate Maritime Administration form described in § 67.211. (b) The bill of ...
46 CFR 67.200- Instruments eligible for filing and recording.
eligible for filing and recording: (a) Bills of sale and instruments in the nature of bills of sale; (b) ...
46 CFR 67.501- Application for Certificate of Documentation.
and recording any required bills of sale or instruments in the nature of a bill of sale, or the ...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
==================
Time now to wrap this one up.
sfg
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The basic premise of this post is that a bill of sale "has no validity in law".
Bills of Sale have substantial validity in law.
The Cornell Law site shows 9 pages of Uniform Commercial Code which apply to bills of sale, starting here:
===================
Search
GET THE LAW
LAWYER DIRECTORY
LEGAL ENCYCLOPEDIA
HELP OUT
Follow
Home › Search › Search results › "bill of sale"
Site
Enter terms
"bill of sale"
Search
Search results
46 CFR 67.527- Application for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in the nature of a bill of sale.
§ 67.527 Application for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in the nature of ... a bill of sale. An application fee is charged for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in ... the nature of a bill of sale in accordance with subpart P of this part. Section 67.527 ...
bill of sale
ownership and to detail what was actually purchased. A bill of sale may accompany an agreement that states ...
26 CFR 403.60- Purchaser entitled to bill of sale.
§ 403.60 Purchaser entitled to bill of sale. Each purchaser of administratively forfeited property ... is entitled to receive a suitable bill of sale. Section 403.60 ...
27 CFR 72.66- Purchaser entitled to bill of sale.
§ 72.66 Purchaser entitled to bill of sale. Each purchaser of administratively forfeited property, ... including carriers, shall be entitled to receive a suitable and authentic bill of sale on a form to be ...
46 CFR 67.89- Waiver of production of a bill of sale eligible for filing and recording.
§ 67.89 Waiver of production of a bill of sale eligible for filing and recording. (a) When the ... evidence of title passage required by this subpart is a bill of sale which meets the criteria for filing ... Center waive that requirement. (b) No waiver of the requirement to produce a bill of sale eligible for ...
19 CFR 24.34- Vouchers; vendors' bills of sale; invoices.
§ 24.34 Vouchers; vendors' bills of sale; invoices. (a) Vouchers or invoices for ... payment has not been received. Vouchers, vendors' bills of sale, or invoices for purchases or ...
46 CFR Part 67, Subpart P- Filing and Recording of Instruments- Bills of Sale and Related Instruments
§ 67.220 Requirements. § 67.223 Filing limitation. ...
46 CFR 67.75- Transfers by sale or donation subsequent to documentation.
provided in this subpart, transfers of vessel title must be evidenced by a bill of sale which meets the ... subpart O of this part, each bill of sale must be accompanied by a declaration of citizenship from the new ... owner, executed on the appropriate Maritime Administration form described in § 67.211. (b) The bill of ...
46 CFR 67.200- Instruments eligible for filing and recording.
eligible for filing and recording: (a) Bills of sale and instruments in the nature of bills of sale; (b) ...
46 CFR 67.501- Application for Certificate of Documentation.
and recording any required bills of sale or instruments in the nature of a bill of sale, or the ...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
==================
Time now to wrap this one up.
sfg
;)
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Nice job.
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Nobody says it is, but it's sure a hell of a lot better than not having one at all. It may not be perfect, but at least it shows you "tried". You verified their permit against their ID (that they presented). Unless you're sleeping with the prosecutor's wife on the side, he'll probably move on... :P
I don't need to "try" or convince anyone that I did. I'm not a federally licensed dealer and I am not required to keep or dispense any personal data in the sale of a firearm. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do such a thing.
Put those yolks on y'all./
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The basic premise of this post is that a bill of sale "has no validity in law".
Bills of Sale have substantial validity in law.
The Cornell Law site shows 9 pages of Uniform Commercial Code which apply to bills of sale, starting here:
===================
Search
GET THE LAW
LAWYER DIRECTORY
LEGAL ENCYCLOPEDIA
HELP OUT
Follow
Home › Search › Search results › "bill of sale"
Site
Enter terms
"bill of sale"
Search
Search results
46 CFR 67.527- Application for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in the nature of a bill of sale.
§ 67.527 Application for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in the nature of ... a bill of sale. An application fee is charged for filing and recording bills of sale and instruments in ... the nature of a bill of sale in accordance with subpart P of this part. Section 67.527 ...
bill of sale
ownership and to detail what was actually purchased. A bill of sale may accompany an agreement that states ...
26 CFR 403.60- Purchaser entitled to bill of sale.
§ 403.60 Purchaser entitled to bill of sale. Each purchaser of administratively forfeited property ... is entitled to receive a suitable bill of sale. Section 403.60 ...
27 CFR 72.66- Purchaser entitled to bill of sale.
§ 72.66 Purchaser entitled to bill of sale. Each purchaser of administratively forfeited property, ... including carriers, shall be entitled to receive a suitable and authentic bill of sale on a form to be ...
46 CFR 67.89- Waiver of production of a bill of sale eligible for filing and recording.
§ 67.89 Waiver of production of a bill of sale eligible for filing and recording. (a) When the ... evidence of title passage required by this subpart is a bill of sale which meets the criteria for filing ... Center waive that requirement. (b) No waiver of the requirement to produce a bill of sale eligible for ...
19 CFR 24.34- Vouchers; vendors' bills of sale; invoices.
§ 24.34 Vouchers; vendors' bills of sale; invoices. (a) Vouchers or invoices for ... payment has not been received. Vouchers, vendors' bills of sale, or invoices for purchases or ...
46 CFR Part 67, Subpart P- Filing and Recording of Instruments- Bills of Sale and Related Instruments
§ 67.220 Requirements. § 67.223 Filing limitation. ...
46 CFR 67.75- Transfers by sale or donation subsequent to documentation.
provided in this subpart, transfers of vessel title must be evidenced by a bill of sale which meets the ... subpart O of this part, each bill of sale must be accompanied by a declaration of citizenship from the new ... owner, executed on the appropriate Maritime Administration form described in § 67.211. (b) The bill of ...
46 CFR 67.200- Instruments eligible for filing and recording.
eligible for filing and recording: (a) Bills of sale and instruments in the nature of bills of sale; (b) ...
46 CFR 67.501- Application for Certificate of Documentation.
and recording any required bills of sale or instruments in the nature of a bill of sale, or the ...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
==================
Time now to wrap this one up.
sfg
So, are you saying that a scrap of paper with a couple signatures and a s/n is a valid bill of sale? In which instance would you present such a legal instrument, and what would it do for you?
Here's a hint: You are not required to produce or keep a bill of sale as a private citizen. There is no instance when it will "help you" with a legal issue. It's NOT required under the law. This is pretty simple stuff.
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'Here's a hint: You are not required to produce or keep a bill of sale as a private citizen. There is no instance when it will "help you" with a legal issue. It's NOT required under the law. This is pretty simple stuff.'
Not required so don't do it. Feel like it offers a level of protection then so it. Now that is simple stuff.
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Here Lies the Serious Danger in This Original Post:
Simply, that some Forum Folks will actually believe it. Please don't.
Many Forum Followers base their firearms and shooting sports decisions upon information and discussions posted on the NFOA Forum.
So--some may be led to discontinue use of bills of sale in their firearms transactions if they accept the erroneous conclusions of the original post.
Bills of sale for firearms clearly have serious legal validity. It's always a good idea to use them here in Nebraska. Perhaps everything is different in the State of Georgia, from which the original posting was made. But not in Nebraska. A bill of sale can save a heap of trouble for both buyers and sellers.
And, quoting that eminent source, Forrest Gump, "That's All I've Got to Say About That."
FWIW,
sfg
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Here Lies the Danger in This Original Post:
Simply, that some Forum Folks will actually believe it. Please don't.
Many Forum Followers base their firearms and shooting sports decisions upon information and discussions posted on the NFOA Forum.
So--some may be led to discontinue use of bills of sale in their firearms transactions if they accept the erroneous conclusions of the original post.
Bills of sale for firearms clearly have serious legal validity. It's always a good idea to use them here in Nebraska. Perhaps everything is different in the State of Georgia, from which the original posting was made. But not in Nebraska. A bill of sale can save a heap of trouble for both buyers and sellers.
And, quoting that eminent source, Forrest Gump, "That's All I've Got to Say About That."
FWIW,
sfg
Hey wait a minute, I thought if something is written that means it has to be true, especially if it's written on an internet site. I remember Abraham Lincoln telling me that the other day when he came over for dinner and a movie. And you'd think a former president would be telling me the truth, especially Honest Abe.
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Mabye Mr. Clark will jump in and end this mess.
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So, are you saying that a scrap of paper with a couple signatures and a s/n is a valid bill of sale? In which instance would you present such a legal instrument, and what would it do for you?
Here's a hint: You are not required to produce or keep a bill of sale as a private citizen. There is no instance when it will "help you" with a legal issue. It's NOT required under the law. This is pretty simple stuff.
Well I think seeing how GA has its own Bill of Sale for private transfer of firearms, you are only trolling the forum and really do not know what your talking about. Time for Mods to end this post please...
https://billofsale.net/ga/georgia-firearm-bill-of-sale/
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Why do you want the mods to end the post? Let people discuss it instead of censoring a different point of view. Maybe the mods will create a safe space section instead :).
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Hmmm, jimmies have been rustled yet again. I understand healthy and vigorous discussion, but trolling is evident. ;) Before the internet trolling was associated with fishing, now not so much.
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Well I think seeing how GA has its own Bill of Sale for private transfer of firearms, you are only trolling the forum and really do not know what your talking about. Time for Mods to end this post please...
https://billofsale.net/ga/georgia-firearm-bill-of-sale/
You could insert any state name on a downloadable bill of sale. It's certainly not required in Georgia, I can promise you that.
Neither Federal, state, nor local law requires me to write personal information of a buyer or seller on a scrap of paper when I dispose of a firearm.
Is having a differing opinion always "trolling"? What's the point of discussing in an echo chamber? Protect the feels?
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You may not sell to a person that you know is a felon, but you are not required to dig into the person's background.
That's not true in Nebraska. For handgun sales, the seller is obligated to verify that the buyer has a purchase permit or a concealed handgun permit.
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For those claiming that a Bill of Sale has no legal standing check out this quote:
Stebbing faces two counts of falsifying a bill of sale, two counts of filing false Nebraska income tax returns and one count of acting as an unlicensed dealer, according to the complaint.
SourceL http://journalstar.com/news/local/911/lancaster-county-treasurer-stebbing-charged-with-five-felonies/article_5dd1bdab-350d-5f0d-8011-cd9f9929caf1.html
So here is the Lancaster County Treasurer being charged for falsifying a Bill of Sale. Sounds like a valid BoS has legal validity as well.
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If a bill of sale contains nothing but a couple of illegible signatures, I can see Laufen's point. However, it's quite different if it shows name, address and driver's license number for both buyer and seller. The driver's license has a photo so you know that it belongs to the person with whom you are dealing. If the sale is of a handgun, Nebraska also requires the buyer to hold either a concealed handgun permit or a handgun certificate (issued by the county sheriff and not good for concealed carry). I don't know about handgun certificates but my CHP has a serial number and my photo. If I were involved in the transaction, I would run the other person's driver's license and permit through my scanner.
A well documented bill of sale serves two purposes. First, it shows that you exercised due diligence to avoid buying stolen goods or selling to a prohibited person. Second, it provides a paper trail for police to use if there is a problem. The last thing a bad guy will want to provide is information that would lead police straight to him. Hypothetically, someone could fool you with forgeries of both driver's license and permit but that takes more effort than most crooks are willing to exert.
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If you sell to someone and they do bad with it, it is not your fault if you didn't have any indications. Heck, do you check driving records when you sell a car? You would sell a car to a 14 time drunk driver without thinking twice! (Yes, they are out there)
As for it protecting you, it may or may not. Anyone can be turned into a criminal by zealots. I would fear a jury of today's citizens, even in Nebraska.
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Hell, after reading this thread, I would fear a jury of NFOA members.
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Why do so many private citizens place an unnecessary burden on themselves for a piece of paper that has zero validity in a court of law? Private citizens are not required to record an individuals information for transfer of a firearm. Why do so many of you do this?
The problem in the thread is that the OP's initial comment was factually incorrect (his "zero validity in a court of law" statement) after which every time someone else pointed out that he was wrong, he changed his argument to something else. He also kept repeating the "Bills of sale provide zero legal protection" statement numerous times, as if saying it more would make it true.
He started with that untrue oft-repeated statement, followed it with "Second, it is not required that you investigate the person you are selling to. You may not sell to a person that you know is a felon, but you are not required to dig into the person's background" which isn't true, added "if a crime were committed with the firearm, and you didn't commit the crime...VOILA! You're innocent" which might not be true because theft-by-recieving is a thing.
One of the things he also did was keep changing the topic--from "zero legal protection so it doesn't help" to "..not required to keep or dispense any personal data in the sale of a firearm." (Which not only isn't true in part, but is a different argument.)
For example, later he says: "Neither Federal, state, nor local law requires me to write personal information of a buyer or seller on a scrap of paper when I dispose of a firearm."
....which is a true statement. However, that doesn't make anything said prior to that true.
Nebraska law requires (when selling a handgun) that the seller verifies that the buyer has either a purchase permit or a CHP (which means you also need their ID to check against the info on the purchase permit or CHP). No, you don't have to write that down if you are selling a firearm---but it is considerable legal protection if you can provide to a court a bill of sale in which you, the seller, can show that prior to the sale, you not only checked that information, but wrote down their name, driver's license number, and purchase permit number or CHP number. (Because that proves you followed the law, and therefore can't be charged with illegally selling the firearm.) What happens AFTER that legal sale is not your responsibility--and you can show it was a legal sale.
So Laufen started by making an untrue statement and added it to a question about something you don't have to do, but should. His followups later changed the topic from "should do this" to "you don't have to do this" which confused the issues nicely.
I have no comment as to his reasons for doing so regarding Nebraska laws while he lives in Georgia.
justsomeguy--I'm pretty sure that a jury of NFOA members would be fine, because one of the things that happens with a jury is that the law is explained pretty clearly prior to their judging if it was broken.
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Hell, after reading this thread, I would fear a jury of NFOA members.
A jury made of NFOA members would probably be pretty well thought out. I would be wanting Mr. JTHapkido on my jury 'cause he actually thinks.