NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: OnTheFly on April 17, 2013, 08:52:23 PM
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I found this in jthhapkido's post about shooting sports (Homage to a Competition Shooter from a SOCOM operator. (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8869.msg62765.html#msg62765)), but I didn't want to hijack his thread.
OMG!!! :o
This is freaking scary.
Gun Safety (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkfit4NK_A#ws)
The sad thing is these people have gone to someone who is supposedly experienced and this "expert" taught them this ridiculous bull fodder.
Some video highlights
Have you ever seen four people get swept with a gun by four other people all at the same time? - 00:30
How about having someone draw behind you during a live fire exercise? - 00:50
Hey! I've got a great idea. You go downrange and shoot at those targets and we will stay back here and shoot around you. - 01:13
I am ninja. Fear me! - 01:29
Apparently "down range" is a relative term. - 01:32
Can you feel the muzzle blast on your shoulder? - 02:22
Fly
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Great Music!
(http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv96/jesper1992/funny%20sjizzel%20dizzel/dont-worry-sir-im-from-the-internet.jpg)
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That is like one of those police motorcycle drills with bike weaving around each other....except they are using bullets in this instance. :o :o :o
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I cringed before reading the comments and ...uhhh... no. no no no no.
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Introducing your newly funded Dept of Education Rapid Reaction Team :o
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:o WOW!!!
But, I will admit while I was watching the video, my daughter got up and started dancing all silly like to the music :laugh:
(and no, I didn't let her watch the actual video lol)
Man, this is some pretty crazy stuff!
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I cant even read the comments......scary stuff
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I loved Benny Hill! That music is rather appropriate for that, uh.. training?
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Here's the scary part: Those people are the instructors and advanced students at that particular training facility.
They hold MANY classes, and completely RAKE IN the money.
People pay these folks to teach them to handle firearms.
I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.
From poor gun handling skills (obvious everywhere, but specifically noticable at :39 with the poor grip and the bad weaver stance), to completely unsafe situations (EVERYTHING!), poor muzzle control, poor tactical decisions, ridiculously slow trigger actions on close targets, and poor accuracy (look at where the dust is coming up when they are "rapid firing") --- there really isn't anything to applaud about these people. (Oh, let's not forget the really really bad movement skills. And the poor carbine skills.)
http://www.americandefenseenterprises.com/ (http://www.americandefenseenterprises.com/)
"The Department of Homeland Security rated us the number one trainers in the world! World-class Firearms Instructors present the same advanced firearms courses that they teach to Seal's, Marines, and S.W.A.T teams."
That is a direct quote from their website, spelled/punctuated exactly like they had it.
I'm not kidding, that is how they advertise themselves. How many errors or outright lies can you find in just those two sentences? (Answer: too many.)
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(If you want to have a laugh at how ridiculous they are, and then suddenly worry about the fact that people are taking their classes, look at the videos on their website.)
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Rated #1 by DHS... Somehow I can buy into the idea that Janet Napolitano has determined this to be the cutting edge of firearms instruction. ::)
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Anyone remember Joey Chitwood?
(http://chevynova.com/uploads/Joey-Chitwood-Thrill-Show.jpg)
He traveled around the Midwest 40 years ago, doing stupid things with the family automobile. Was what he did safe, or was it a show? It was a show.
I do not know what the purpose of the gun video in this thread is for, but I am glad the local indoor range is a little more structured than that.
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Introducing your newly funded Dept of Education Rapid Reaction Team
My first impression was that they were training for Obama's 250,000 "Civilian Security Defense Force", or they were upgrading the training for TSA VIPR teams.
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My first impression was that they were training for Obama's 250,000 "Civilian Security Defense Force"
That is a relief...that problem should take care of itself....
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That is a relief...that problem should take care of itself...
ROF,LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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I tried to watch it again, only got to 0:54 before i had to stop (just after the intentional fall and guy behind opens fire).
Reminds me of the idiot game 'do you trust me' things that got a cadet killed. Stupid stupid stupid.
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From their American Warriors Test (http://www.americandefenseenterprises.com/american%20warriors%20test.htm)...
One-Day @ Burro CanyonThe "American Warriors Test" is the hardest, most comprehensive test of gun skills in the world today. The standard tests given by police, military or other shooting schools to supposedly grade gun skills have all the targets directly in front of the student. He may have to turn left or right to face the target, and the range and time varies, but that is all. The student stands upright and without any other movement engages the targets, which is only ?? percent of the time. This is extremely unrealistic.
The "American Warriors Test" requires 360° engagements, close contact, intermediate contact, close contact rear, standard engagement, moving engagements assaulting through and retreating from opponents. The moving engagements require hits and distance covered under time constraints. Targets range from 0 to 50 yards, and all areas tested have both single and multiple opponents. Virtually all other tests can be done on an individual in about one hour, allowing the student to stay at his peak performance. The "American Warriors Test" is approximately 7 hours of continuous shooting, spinning to engage targets and moving. A test this long does not show your peak performance but your average--what you can actually call up on demand.
There are 3 levels:
American Warrior...93%
American Operator...87%
American Defender...75%
Only 7 people have ever reached 93% and made the American Warrior level.
Only 8 people have ever reached 87% and made the American Operator level.
Maybe the problem is not them. Maybe we are all just jealous that we do not have the ninja skills to be in one of these groups.
Fly
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For fun, someone post a similar video, where people are walking through a marksmanship range, where you think all is well.
Might be fun and educational to see good and bad, together, to compare them.
I shot on a big city swat team range a number of years back. Here in Nebraska. I was amazed as my instructor walked, and at times, ran through the targets. His time was amazing, and his score was almost as good as mine, with me walking through, taking my time on each target.
Post more videos, some ones, you think are a good example of something similar.
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(If you want to have a laugh at how ridiculous they are, and then suddenly worry about the fact that people are taking their classes, look at the videos on their website.)
I agree! That was my mixed reaction. I had to laugh and at the same time my stomach started to churn as I thought of all the people who trained with these yahoos. Someone is buying (literally) this crap. Hopefully they just keep all that "specialized" training at their range and don't jeopardize the lives of others.
I almost wish I had the time, money, and intestinal fortitude to go take a class with them. I would even pay to bring along jthhapkido and some other NFOA'ers so we could all be in awe of their absolutely screwed up ways.
It would be a learning experience, but not in the way they intend.
Fly
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Maybe the problem is not them. Maybe we are all just jealous that we do not have the ninja skills to be in one of these groups.
Or, we can't afford the ammo costs, class costs, or take the time necessary to train to that level.
Personally, I see it the way I looked at instrument flight training. To fly in IFR required a level of constant training that I didn't have the time or money for, and it would only be useful for less than 10% of my flying, IF I chose to fly through IFR conditions. Like I said before, I'd rather be sorry I didn't fly than sorry I did.
I know, I know. There is no way to know in advance when a need for a concealed weapon will arise, or what level of skill will be needed when that occasion arises. But, I have decided in advance what are the conditions under which I would draw my weapon and use it, and it reduces to the last possible option. Besides, even with my new 8 round mags I could be facing a guy with a 30 round mag. I suspect that in most cases the issue would be decided before I shot 16 rounds, and my Nano became a club.
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The Professionals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGjBPBJ8CVs#)
On this video the owner of the company says "the objective is more important than your own lives."
I don't think students realize he meant the training class. :o
Also what the hell is up with the repeated use of strong hand only shooting when the weak hand is fully available for use!?
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Or, we can't afford the ammo costs, class costs, or take the time necessary to train to that level.
Talking about the "tactics" displayed in this horsesh|t video, there is no "training to that level." Unless you like fratricide. From the principles of small unit tactics, there is absolutely nothing sound in this video. The interior movement was sh|t: I've seen better stuff from untrained reservist POGs out here at FHL. Literally too many things to list as to why it was crap. The rest was a series of pointless and dangerous drills that only (might) look cool to those who don't know anything.
"The mission is more important" is a cute saying, but doesn't hold up in practice. Safety is still a huge part of real world operations, from control measures integrated into SOPs and TTPs to prevent fratricide, to speed limits for convoys to avoid rollovers and other accidents. Safety and security are two different things but they both have the same goal: loss prevention. A dead team member is no longer able to assist the unit towards mission success, and a wounded member is a huge liability and burden to security, logistics, operations, and overall mission success.
Edited for clarity. Typed this from my phone originally.
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From the video SeanN posted, check out the "Instructor" at 00:07. I want his job!
Trust me young lady. I'm a professional. Now let me move my hand just a little lower. If that doesn't work, I can try the technique where I stand immediately behind you and wrap my hands around to assist you with your grip. Kind of like that golf pro did just before he offered to buy you dinner. If I nibble on your neck, it is only a test to see if you can shoot with distractions.
You could teach her a stable stance...NAH! This is more fun.
Fly
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Above post cleaned up.
I had seen this video some time before, didn't think much about it at the time except: "NO, NO, NO."
After seeing this today I seriously started to wonder if this wasn't a parody or joke, so I did a google search. Apparently this is all too real:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=244626 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=244626)
FB Page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/American-Defense-Enterprises-ADE/111850298851028 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/American-Defense-Enterprises-ADE/111850298851028)
You have to scroll down a ways before you hit anything of any substance. Alot of pics and videos of bad techniques, and drills that I cannot fathom the purpose of.
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Or, we can't afford the ammo costs, class costs, or take the time necessary to train to that level.
If you think that is a high level of training, or something that shooters should aspire to, then we have significant differences in expectations and opinions.
From a shooting skills perspective, their grips are significantly non-optimal, their stances (shooting platforms) are laughable, their movement is slow and ridiculously movie-learned, their accuracy and speed leave much to be desired, and their building clearing tactics come straight from the Keystone cops.
Their skills come directly from TV and movie crap, it looks like, and training "to that level" looks like it means learning crap shooting technique from people who don't know any better, and who think that looking cool is the key to being tactical, and that the ability to have a 1-second draw on a target at 2 yards is the ultimate in speed.
And that isn't even DISCUSSING the safety issues with what they are doing.
So no, I don't think the issue is that we are jealous because we don't have the time and ammo necessary to train "to their level."
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For fun, someone post a similar video, where people are walking through a marksmanship range, where you think all is well.
Might be fun and educational to see good and bad, together, to compare them.
I shot on a big city swat team range a number of years back. Here in Nebraska. I was amazed as my instructor walked, and at times, ran through the targets. His time was amazing, and his score was almost as good as mine, with me walking through, taking my time on each target.
Post more videos, some ones, you think are a good example of something similar.
I wasn't aware that any SWAT team had their own range here in Nebraska. Where was this? And are you talking just about the instructor moving while shooting? That's pretty normal.
You ask for a good example of something similar---not sure what you mean, because this video is just completely awful, and doesn't really show anything useful. I can't think of anyone teaching well that has a video "similar" to this one.
You want a video of people learning how to shoot correctly? Plenty out there. (A lot of really bad ones, too.)
You want a video of people running through stages of targets and engaging them accuracy at speed? Look for any USPSA match video.
You want videos of people learning actually close-quarters fighting tactics? Pull up an ECQC video.
You want videos of people learning actual building-clearing tactics? That'll be harder, because those people are generally busy training and prefer not to advertise their techniques. But you might find some.
Here's another good indicator of the training you get from these people:
Training with American Defense Enterprises (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTlMlI_Ekoc#ws)
Look at her grip. How her shoulders move (actually, her whole body goes up and down) and she can't get the gun on target on the draw (has to adjust her aiming point) even though it is about 3 yards off. Look at her recoil management---and it is only a 9mm. This is training to be an instructor, and starting with her hand almost on the gun in an open thigh rig she can barely make 1.2 at 3 yards.
(And the guy running the timer, when she runs a 1.56, says "still faster than most" which is really sad.)
This isn't a regular student--this is someone who later is one of their instructors. And there pretty much isn't ANYTHING about her fundamentals that is any good.
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I can think of two government ran ranges in Lancaster County that have SWAT training. Trained on both. One has a very good tire house and elevated platform for marksman/observer training. Also Hastings has a very good range with 600 yard targets.
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I can think of two government ran ranges in Lancaster County that have SWAT training. Trained on both. One has a very good tire house and elevated platform for marksman/observer training. Also Hastings has a very good range with 600 yard targets.
Oh, there are several ranges that SWAT members use to practice in Nebraska. My comment was in response to: "I shot on a big city swat team range a number of years back. Here in Nebraska" and it was that I didn't know that any SWAT team had its own range.
The LE academy has a range, of course, and there are several others. However, I wasn't aware of any dedicated SWAT ranges, which is why I asked.
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In the video above, the shooter is doing something with her right hand before/during the draw....what is that? (looks like a tap/rub before draw)
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I wrote a comment on their fb page, and made some pretty negative comments. I know, but I just can't resist poking the bear. It was only there for a few minutes before it was deleted. What a surprise.
Fly
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In the video above, the shooter is doing something with her right hand before/during the draw....what is that? (looks like a tap/rub before draw)
I don't know if there's a technical term. Basically she's making sure her non-draw hand is safe and on its way up to join the draw-hand/pistol.
A quick google search describes it as such...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/08/robert-farago/how-not-to-draw-a-gun-from-a-holster-2/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/08/robert-farago/how-not-to-draw-a-gun-from-a-holster-2/)
* Keep your non-gun hand on your chest
If your non-gun hand is not on your body during all this pre-Weaver stance firing, you stand a pretty good chance of shooting it, or at least burning it to hell with hot gasses. This can also happen in a “normal” draw under abnormal circumstances.
For obvious reasons, she's using abdomen rather than chest.
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If you think that is a high level of training, or something that shooters should aspire to, then we have significant differences in expectations and opinions.
I was referring to the idea that an ordinary CHP like me has to train to the level IMPLIED by that video, not that the "level" demonstrated in the video was desirable.
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mOpar...thanks for the explaination.
As I cycled through several draws, it looked almost like a double slap she was doing with her right hand. As I watched over and over several times, it appeared she was waiting on the right hand. Maybe I just mistook what was going on. Makes sense to keep track of your hand, just seems quicker to just start that hand from some sort of "home" location, just don't get the slap or rub.
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I hate all the holes in the targets... does draw speed really matter if you can't hit your target
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* Keep your non-gun hand on your chest
However, I noticed a contradiction in the advice in that URL...
* Point the gun in the direction of the target immediately upon unholstering
That way you can fire at once (from the hip), bring the gun up towards your chest, fire again, get a two-handed grip, fire again, push the gun out and fire again. That’s four shots, if needs be.
But, that advice contradicts this advice, just a couple paragraphs below:
* Keep your finger OFF the trigger
Even before hows88 gets his sight picture, his finger is on the trigger. That’s bad.
If you keep your hand off the trigger until you have a "sight picture" how are you going to shoot FOUR shots if your finger is not on the trigger? The Uri Geller trigger mechanism?
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While we're getting a bit off-topic here... I don't think there's any problem with having your finger on the trigger and even slightly pressing on the trigger before you can see the sights. As long as the GUN is on target (and in a safe direction), it doesn't matter. Even if you accidentally finish the trigger pull, at the distance they're at, it would hit the target and follow-up shots would be made with the full grip and extension.
This has been taught to me by several knowledgeable instructors from both tactical/military and civilian/competition backgrounds. Obviously, you don't want to be pulling the trigger before you have the gun pointed forward. Once you do, if you have good technique, your body will index the muzzle in the correct direction and it is safe to start "prepping" the trigger.
At a distance of 3 yards, many people can hit the target before getting the gun fully extended and shoot from between the armpit and pectoral area if necessary, which is as fast and a far more desirable area to shoot from than the hip in the case of needing weapon retention.
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I hate all the holes in the targets... does draw speed really matter if you can't hit your target
No, it does not. You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight... Or a competition. Ask me how I know about the latter. :P
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(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee412/alemonkey/101_zps776f7e71.gif)
Seriously, I watched it a couple of times and although I admittedly have very little in the way of formal training, I fail to see the purpose of most of these drills.
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(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee412/alemonkey/101_zps776f7e71.gif)
Seriously, I watched it a couple of times and although I admittedly have very little in the way of formal training, I fail to see the purpose of most of these drills.
Intimidation... >:D 8) If you know nothing about guns this looks pretty scary...If you know even a little about safe gun handling practices this is terrifying. :o
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I am betting that they mostly cater to the gun newbs. That Hollywood fodder of a promotional video probably gets a lot of ignorant people sucked up into their classes. Sickening.
Fly
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Magpul Dynamics pulled a massive marketing coup when they "showed" how people taking their classes turned into serious operators and looked all sorts of cool.
Other schools have figured out the "we are clueless and want to look really cool" demographic is unfortunately huge, and their marketing is really playing to that. [sigh] People don't seem to realize that 1) small unit tactics, building-clearing, and skills useful to extended firefights shouldn't be even remotely a priority for people who aren't in the military or law enforcement but want to learn to defend themselves, and 2) actual defensive tactics for personal self-defense prioritize things that simply don't look that cool on camera.
Videos of awareness training? Not that exciting. Videos of running away? Not that cool. Videos of making the appropriate choice in time, getting the gun out quickly, and putting multiple shots on target as fast as possible? Can be nifty, but just aren't in the same "cool" league as:
Magpul Dynamics -Art of the Tactical Carbine trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye30b3TL5wI#ws)
--which, of course, is a class that would have been fun to take, though almost completely useless for self-defense.
(Please don't tell me that you use an AR-15 for home defense, and this class will REALLY teach you how to use it for self-defense---nothing wrong with using an AR for home defense at all, and this class will probably get you better at gun handling. That doesn't mean that it'll prepare you for self-defense, or self-defense tactics, though.)
If it looks cool on camera, it probably isn't a demonstration of self-defense tactics for civilians who are non-LEO. (It might be a demonstration of shooting skills, and that's all good, but that's a different thing.)
Don't get me wrong---classes like that might be FUN to take, and shooting hobbies are a good time. But don't get those confused with classes that help you learn to keep yourself and your loved ones safe.
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Agreed jthhapkido. There is much instruction out there that would be tremendous fun while not being very practical for our needs. What is funny yet sickening at the same time is a comparison of these two videos. The Benny Hill music that someone paired with the ADE video makes you initially wonder if someone made the video as a joke. Sadly, it is intended as real. On the other end of the spectrum is the Magpul video you posted. I have no doubt that the quality training that is demonstrated in the video is what you would receive.
Hopefully ADE doesn't kill someone.
Fly