NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: OnTheFly on May 24, 2012, 11:44:01 PM
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I am considering reloading 9mm for target shooting. Just some generic 115gr round nose jacketed (or maybe plated) bullets to start.
Could you tell me the best deal you have found on cases, bullets, primers and powder in the following format for each?
Retailer:
Brand:
Quantity:
Price (Including shipping):
Thank you,
Fly
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FLY
You might try www.berrysbullets.com.
In 9mm 115gr they have three different offerings. Here's one:
#19355 - Box of 250 $25.30
They offer even better prices for quantities of 1000. Shipping is free (and pretty fast) if order is over $50.00. They are in St. George, UT. My order last Friday (late night) arrived mid-day on Wednesday, this week.
Bullets are plated, not jacketed. Can't go over, say---1200 fps, but you aren't going to do so anyhow on light load target ammo.
I've loaded 3-4 thousand, including the hollow base variety. They work very well for me. Other people at the range speak well of their experience with them.
Berrysbullets are excellent quality, especially considering the price. Their #43234 124gr .356 FP bullets work consistently and accurately in my .357Sig reloads at about 1200 FPS.
Good luck on your search. My apologies for format rearrangement.
sfg
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Thanks for the reply SemperFiGuy. I did find Berry's Bullets online and had incorporated their 1,000 bullet pricing in my calculations.
The reason I am asking for this information, is that I am trying to figure out just how much money I can save by reloading myself. I downloaded a spreadsheet where you plug in all the information and it produces a price (per round, 100, etc.). It even considers how many times you plan to reload the brass in its calculations. However, what I am finding is that I am only saving at the most about $8.00 per 100 rounds and at the least about $3 per 100 rounds. If I step up my shooting and reload 3,000 rounds, that means I save $90 on the low end and $240 on the high side. This does not even include buying reloading equipment since my friend said I could use his.
The other aspect I am looking at is that if I was good at it, I have been told that I could crank out 1,000 rounds per hour. So just reloading, not including case prep time, etc., I will be at this for 3 hours.
With all the things I have going on, including trying to find time to shoot, it does not seem like reloading is going to be that worthwhile considering the time and financial expenditure.
I keep having people tell me how much they save on shooting and that "You may spend the same as you were buying factory ammo, but you will get to shoot a lot more". I would like to have someone show me with hard numbers for ALL their reloading supplies (including shipping) and compare that to some of the deals I have been able to find locally or online for factory ammo. From my calculations, I'm not seeing a huge savings.
Fly
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@OnTheFly I've got to agree with you. I shoot 9mm, too. When I looked into it, I had to factor in the cost of reloading equipment, too and it just wasn't worth it for me. I can watch Walmart and catch the WWB or Federal sales and save more money than buying reloading equipment.
The best arguments I've heard for reloading are either: 1) the ammo you shoot isn't made or is hard to find (9mm is everywhere so that one's out). 2) It's relaxing and a good way to spend your time -- I'm cool with that one, but like you mentioned, 3 hours for 1k rounds... I don't know... I understand those that do it for this reason, but I'm not sure this would be relaxing, for me. So, I buy my ammo.
Just FYI, you can get re-manufactured ammo online if you're willing to risk your gun on someone else's reloading skills / operation. I've heard good things about Jack Ross ammo and Freedom Ammunitions, but haven't tried either, yet. When you factor in shipping, you might run into the same mathematical problems.
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Fly. I save a little on .38s and quite a bit more on .45 even with buying the supplies and giving my brother a little extra per hundred for him reloading it all. But the biggest thing for me is being able to find that load that works the best for me and my gun. We were able to 'build' a .38 special load that shoots a pattern I could not get anywhere near with factory ammo. Most factory ammo is 'tuned' to be average in the most popular firearm. As in my case I have 4 inch revolvers but the more popular pistol would probably be a 2" snubby. Factory ammo got flighty after 10 yards, with our reloads I am still holding a decent group out to 15-20. The .45ACP I was able to go with a 185gr bullet (berry's) and a load that reduced recoil, but tightened up groupings, big time. (of course at speed I still can't hit crud, but..) What I'm saying is when you are doing your figurin', keep in mind the Factory ammo you are buying cheap in bulk (while good enough) is nothing compared to 'custom' rounds.
Brother shoots Cowboy Action and has tuned pistol rounds for recoil, and has rifle rounds built for long range. With some research and trial I have seen him built some awesome rounds.
Oh, yeah, we also have went to Berry's plated for everything (other than SASS)
Once again, my $.02
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NEBull,
That is one thing I thought of, but forgot to include with my post. My friend with the reloading equipment is very good at finding the best round (case weight, bullet weight, grains of powder, overall round length, etc.) for a specific rifle.
I can see how critical it is with your short barreled revolvers. However, for the pistol shooters, the accuracy consideration does not seem to be brought up. I don't ever get the advice, "You should reload so your rounds are über accurate". It is always about the cost.
I would be curious to hear from J. Thomas Howard on how much effort he puts into designing his loads. When/If I ever get to his level where everyone comes to a match just so they can watch me win ;D, then I will likely start hand loading. The way I look at it right now, what I need is time to shoot (which means the least amount of time doing other things such as reloading) and as much practice as I can get. Hopefully, as Thomas preaches, dry firing will improve my skills without having to spend a lot on ammunition, but there are just some things that you can not do with dry firing.
My shooting has improved considerably in the last couple of months. Some of this is due to the classes I have taken with Precision Response Training, but some of it is due to the sheer number of rounds I have fired over the last couple of months. It is probably over a thousand. That has got me over the initial hump of cringing every time the gun went "BANG" and the basic instinct to manly control the recoil to the point of being too tense in my stance, grip, and everything else. I can actually watch the front sight during the entire firing, muzzle rise, trigger reset, trigger prep, and bringing the front sight back on target. That is definitely something I could not have gotten used to with dry fire alone.
Fly
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No way you are going to load 1000 rounds per hour
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No way you are going to load 1000 rounds per hour
That is what some Walmart guy told me. That sure sounded high to me, but I thought I would use that as a high end, pie in the sky, best scenario figure. Thanks for confirming that is unrealistic. It is pushing me further towards buying commercial ammo for the time being.
Fly
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I used to load for 9 with a progressive. Reloading ammo equates to more shooting, not necessarily saving money, also you can dial in the load for the gun exactly how you want it. I can load about 4-500 per hour. I am currently without anything in 9 soooo........
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I used to load for 9 with a progressive. Reloading ammo equates to more shooting, not necessarily saving money, also you can dial in the load for the gun exactly how you want it. I can load about 4-500 per hour. I am currently without anything in 9 soooo........
Sparky...Your statement "Reloading ammo equates to more shooting, not necessarily saving money,..." is exactly what I have heard from others, but from what I have found the savings is minimal for the time invested. The reason I asked for prices on supplies for reloading is I want someone to prove to me that I will be able to shoot more. As I described above, I can save a few dollars, but is 6+ hours of reloading (using the high end of your round per hour estimate) to load 3,000 rounds worth saving possibly only $90?
So what I am saying is, the canned statement "You won't save money, but you'll shoot more" is not computing. It may look even better when I don't include sales tax or shipping for the components, but I'm way too detailed of a person to do that. The accuracy of custom loads, would be the biggest benefit in my mind.
I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but PROVE it to me that you are saving and able to shoot that much more with 9mm.
By the way, when I was doing my calculations for the numbers above, I was buying bulk everything. 5,000 bullets from Berry's, 1,000 primers, 1,000+ cases, and the biggest container of powder I could find.
Fly
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For comparison in your study.....I've been buying BVAC (Bitter Root Valley Ammunition Company) 1000 round 115 gr FMJ reload bulk for around $8.95/50 (I use 50 to compare to buying equivlent number in the store, etc.). Buying from Cheaper Than Dirt, throw in $14 shipping I still feel I am coming out ahead. It is clean shooting, great performing ammo.
CDNN has NEW Speer Lawman 115 gr FMJ in 1000 round cases for 28 cents per round and $9.99 shipping for as much as you want.
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For comparison in your study.....I've been buying BVAC (Bitter Root Valley Ammunition Company) 1000 round 115 gr FMJ reload bulk for around $8.95/50 (I use 50 to compare to buying equivlent number in the store, etc.). Buying from Cheaper Than Dirt, throw in $14 shipping I still feel I am coming out ahead. It is clean shooting, great performing ammo.
CDNN has NEW Speer Lawman 115 gr FMJ in 1000 round cases for 28 cents per round and $9.99 shipping for as much as you want.
Thanks bullit. I will look into those.
Fly
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As of right now I am saving $.03 per round on 9mm ball. My reason for hand loading was to build a load exactly how I wanted, not how remchesterfederal says.
When you have time like sitting in the evenings watching tv, I could crank out ammo on the progressive like no other, on the flip side when I have more ammo sitting around I find reasons to go to the range and turn my money into noise.
Now if you are going to reload rifle, you can save money, but alas your time does equal something.
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Reloading is mostly a hobby for me, but some of the stuff I reload is a little more specialized for handgun silhoutte. So I already ahve most of the equiptment, although it has taken me years to accumulate the stuff. One of the things I can tell you is to load a few rounds then go test it to make sure they are going to function. correctly in your gun. Sometimes this does not have anything to do with how you reload, but with the components. I was recently cranking out the rounds of 9mm, same load same bullets, same powder the only thing I changed was the primers I normally shoot federal primers, but trying to save money I tried magtech and remington. I just today finally shot up those loads. The main problems with these brands for me were they are harder than Federal. I had I lot of solid strikes with the firing pin, but no bang. This happened in three different 9's each one a different brand. I compared these loads along side federal primers and factory loads. The latter two showed no problems.
I don't know if this will help and sorry if I got long winded but there you go for my .02 worth
Galen
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I just noticed this thread, so I thought I'd chime in here---I reload 9mm, since that is almost exclusively what I shoot.
I use Montana Gold bullets, winchester primers, Winchester Super Field powder, and range brass. :) Way back when I bought 1000 cases to start with, and have never bought since---and current in addition to the several thousand rounds I have loaded up, have literally 7 buckets of 9mm brass waiting to be cleaned and used.
So I don't actually factor in any cost of brass for reloading. :) If you do need to buy brass, don't bother doing it at the store, just go here and buy a couple thousand---then pick up everything at the range. :)
http://www.once-fired-brass.com/ (http://www.once-fired-brass.com/)
I shoot 124gr bullets, but if I were to do the 115gr route, here is what it would cost me:
4000 115gr Montana Gold FMJ: $303 (includes shipping)
5000 primers (Guns Unlimited, buy by the case): $139 ($130 plus tax)
8lb keg of WSF (would actually make over 11000 rounds): $160 (note, this is a guess, I don't remember exactly how much this costs, I think it may actually be less)
Pro-rating this to 1000 rounds,
Bullets: 75.75
Primers: 27.80
Powder: 14.55
Total: 188.10
So....cost per 50 is about $5.91
Now, how much do *I* actually spend?
Well, I buy the primers and powder at those prices, though I buy a lot more. (And more often.) The amount per round doesn't change, though.
However, when I buy bullets, I buy at the 5-case price from Montana Gold. Even buying the 124gr CMJ (not FMJ) bullets, I still get a serious deal.
https://www.montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist.html (https://www.montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist.html)
I normally do my bullet buy at the beginning of the year---this year I bought 5 cases of 124gr CMJ (3750 bullets per case) at $315 per case---so spent $1575 for 18,750 bullets. (I also bought 7500 .40S&W bullets for my wife, so the mailman HATED me when about 500 pounds of bullets showed up and he had to carry them in.)
My 115gr example above had 115gr FMJ, 4000 for $305 --- .07625 per bullet
When I bought mine: 124gr CMJ, the above price --- .084 per bullet.
So I'm only paying about 39 cents more per box of 50 than what I calculated above.
Bulk buying helps. :) If you can't buy that much on your own, get together with some friends, and buy collectively. Or get together with me at the beginning of the year and we'll buy lots.
So, for me----reloading is a SIGNIFICANT savings over buying factory. I'll definitely shoot over 18,000 rounds this year (so I'm going to have to buy more bullets), and if each box costs me about $6.50, which is about $3 less per box than cheap factory ammo that isn't as consistent or as useful for competition shooting---after 18,000 rounds (or 360 boxes) I'm saving myself about $1080. Not including tax.
Worth it. :)
As for reloading speed----I started with a single-stage press. (RCBS Rock Chucker) Good press, NOT fast. Bought a Dillon 550, which is a GREAT press. Loads everything, progressive, can get about 400-600 an hour depending on what you are loading, completely reliable. For most people, a 550 is THE way to go.
I went to the Rogers Shooting School for a week last year, and when I came back, my wife had bought me a Dillon Super 1050. :o ;D ;D ;D
I love this thing. It is NOT cheap---but I can easily reload 1000 rounds an hour. More like 1200. It takes me an average of 5.5 minutes to reload 100 rounds. 20 seconds to dump in more primers and bullets, and another 5.5 minutes later, I've got another 100 rounds.
Tricky to set up, takes some getting used to, but well worth it for me, since I only reload 9mm. (If you are reloading several different types/calibers of ammo, a 550 or a 650 is the way to go.) But if you are doing serious amounts of one load, the Super 1050 is fantastic.
But it IS expensive. (It is their industrial-capacity press. Make for factory use.)
I'm all for reloading---but it IS a large outlay at the beginning. A 550 plus everything you need is a nice chunk of change (if you are going to do this, buy from BrianEnos.com!) plus buying the components up front is kind of a kick in the @#$&*^ because all the cost hits you at once.
BrianEnos: http://www.brianenos.com/store/dillon.html (http://www.brianenos.com/store/dillon.html)
After that---it is like free ammo for the rest of the year. :)
For me----reloading is why I can afford to shoot as much as I do.
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5 cases at a time :o. My last order was for 6k and I thought that was a lot. We should try to set up a group buy for those of us that can't afford to order in that much bulk.
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5 cases at a time :o. My last order was for 6k and I thought that was a lot. We should try to set up a group buy for those of us that can't afford to order in that much bulk.
Make sense to me. Montana Gold has shipping included in their prices, so it doesn't do anything other than help bring the case price down. (Meaning it doesn't hurt, it only helps.)
Like I said, I normally do my large bullet buy in January/Feb or so (that way I have Feb/Mar to reload a bunch before serious practice starts). It is true that this year I might need to put in another order around October, though, since I'm going to Nationals, and REALLY want to get some practice in this summer. I use 124 gr, however...
For those who want 115 gr bullets: $900 gets you 12,000 9mm 115gr FMJ shipped to you--three people each spending $300 would make it work, and each person would get their own box of 4000 bullets. Any more cases than that would still be only $300 per 4000 rounds.
(If anyone wants to try some 124gr, I'll make a comment about it on this forum whenever I next buy some, in case someone else wants to buy also. I like it for competition purposes, plus it is the same bullet weight as the self-defense hollowpoints that I carry.)
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Please let me know when you do, I would love to jump in on that deal.
FWIW 124gr Precision Delta has slightly lower prices than Montana Gold though they aren't fully encapsulated. You would have to order 10K to get the $78/k price
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Please let me know when you do, I would love to jump in on that deal.
FWIW 124gr Precision Delta has slightly lower prices than Montana Gold though they aren't fully encapsulated. You would have to order 10K to get the $78/k price
Precision Delta is a little cheaper, true. The $78/K price is for the 115s, though. It is $81/K for the 124s (if ordering over 10K.) Still slightly cheaper than MG, though.
In my case, I have had good, extremely consistent results with the MG bullets. And while PD bullets are okay, I would use them for practice but not for competitions---and since the MGs aren't that much more, it is easier for me to just buy all MG for practice and competition, and not have to make any changes to my reloading setup.
This whole thing really is a tradeoff, after all. Reloading is merely trading time for money---takes time to reload, but costs are cheaper. But it is a volume sort of situation. If you are only going to shoot a couple of thousand rounds a year, just buy some bulk Wolf ammo (assuming you have a Glock or something else that doesn't care what the ammo is) and shoot it.
If you are going to shoot more---well, then it might be worth it. :)
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Montana Gold is usually in stock. PD is usually shipped a few weeks after you order. So how soon you want them might be a factor.
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Precision Delta is a little cheaper, true. The $78/K price is for the 115s, though. It is $81/K for the 124s (if ordering over 10K.) Still slightly cheaper than MG, though.
You are right. I got my weights mixed up.
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If you guys are interested in a bulk buy I have a dealer account with Graf's because of my C&R license and I can usually get some good deals. I need some more 9mm so I'm probably going to be putting one in soon. I've been shooting Missouri Bullet Co. cast bullets but I'm tired of scrubbing lead from my bore, so I think I'm going to switch to Berry's plated bullets. Just depends whether my cheapskate nature wins out over laziness ;D
I don't have the numbers anymore, but I once calculated my savings for 9mm and it was pretty significant. I also shoot a lot of oddball stuff, so reloading is the only way to go there. You won't find .577 Snider on the shelf at Cabelas. My 45-70 gets fed 540 grain cast lead bullets and black powder. I could buy those loads, but they would probably cost $30-$40 a box.
Like jth said, you really don't need to figure the cost of brass, especially for shooting handguns. I've never bought unfired 9mm brass, and I have plenty of it still laying around waiting to be cleaned.
I really need a progressive press, but right now I use a Lee turret press for handgun. I can crank out about 200-250 rounds per hour. I usually just split it up over the course of several days and do all my 9mm loading for the year at once.
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If you guys are interested in a bulk buy I have a dealer account with Graf's because of my C&R license and I can usually get some good deals.
Let me know. I have almost shot out all of my 124gr Berry's and would love more.
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jthhapkido,
18,000+ rounds this year?! :o I'm going to have to find another source of income if I'm going to every become competitive. :'(
Thanks for the reply. You have confirmed what I suspected regarding savings through reloading. You can't just buy in bulk. You have to buy in BULK to make reloading cost effective. Thankfully, my friend has a nice progressive press that he said I could use. We will see how that works out and if it messes up any of the reloading he is doing. That will save considerably on the initial outlay of cash. The only remaining question is where will the money come from to shoot THAT much even if I save money on reloading.
Fly
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One additional question for jthhapkido. How much research went into the powder weight (or any other reloading factors) to come up with the load you shoot? Like I said earlier, my friend can work the details to the Nth degree, but I can't imagine it is necessary to be that precise for handgun reloading.
Fly
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jthhapkido,
18,000+ rounds this year?! :o I'm going to have to find another source of income if I'm going to every become competitive. :'(
Thanks for the reply. You have confirmed what I suspected regarding savings through reloading. You can't just buy in bulk. You have to buy in BULK to make reloading cost effective. Thankfully, my friend has a nice progressive press that he said I could use. We will see how that works out and if it messes up any of the reloading he is doing. That will save considerably on the initial outlay of cash. The only remaining question is where will the money come from to shoot THAT much even if I save money on reloading.
Fly
you can buy by the 1000 and have it still be cost effective. It's just that if you buy more at a time, it will obviously be cheaper. 9mm isnt where the money is saved though, it is with rifle rounds and large/odd caliber handgun rounds.
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Thanks for the reply. You have confirmed what I suspected regarding savings through reloading. You can't just buy in bulk. You have to buy in BULK to make reloading cost effective. Thankfully, my friend has a nice progressive press that he said I could use. We will see how that works out and if it messes up any of the reloading he is doing. That will save considerably on the initial outlay of cash. The only remaining question is where will the money come from to shoot THAT much even if I save money on reloading.
Less than you might think. Again, buy 5000 primers from Guns Unlimited, one 8lb keg of powder from the same place, and get together with two friends who each need 4000 bullets---that'll get you the three-case price from Montana Gold. That's more than enough components for 4000 rounds.
One way of looking at it is this: If you do the above, your cost is around $6.50 per 50 rounds if you reload, and buying factory loads is about $9.50 per rounds (for cheap plinking ammo). So, you are really only saving about $3.00 per box. That doesn't sound like much, right?
Another way of looking at it is this: You can make ~125 rounds for the price of buying 100 rounds. ---one quarter more rounds for the same price. If you shoot 4000 rounds in a year, you'll save $240 and you'll still have enough powder left over for next year (and most of the following year), plus 1000 primers left. (I'll note that'll mean your price per 50 rounds the following year will be about $5.06. So you'll save more. And have enough powder for 3/4 of the following year, plus half of your primers already paid for.)
What you have to do in exchange? Pay in terms of time reloading. That's it. I don't know about you, but I'll make that payment with a good progressive press. Spend an hour a week for 10 weeks, and you'll have your 4000 rounds all loaded up---saving yourself almost $250 plus having all the ammo you need for the year. If someone else has the press, so you don't have to buy it, so much the better.
If you don't have the press, about two years of shooting like that will pay for it---and every year after that will save you that amount of money. If you end up shooting more than 4000 rounds, it'll just pay itself back sooner, and you'll save more.
Plus, you'll have better quality control for your ammo (at least compared to the cheap ammo whose factory prices we are using for comparison).
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One additional question for jthhapkido. How much research went into the powder weight (or any other reloading factors) to come up with the load you shoot? Like I said earlier, my friend can work the details to the Nth degree, but I can't imagine it is necessary to be that precise for handgun reloading.
Depends on what you want the round to do. Merely cycle in your gun? Pretty simple---look it up in a decent reloading manual, pick a powder/velocity in the middle of the spread, and there you go. Nothing else needed.
You want it to feel like the rounds you carry for self-defense? Then you'll need to be a little pickier. Want it to be solidly competition-legal in terms of making Minor for USPSA? Little more research, and some time with a chronograph.
Want it to be the best round, accuracy-wise, in your handgun plus all of the above? Little more needed. :)
I note a great place to start for that sort of thing is the BrianEnos forums---there are a couple of great sub-forums there that give all sorts of reloading recipes that work. (Though any reload version will need to be checked in your specific gun, just to make sure.)
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you can buy by the 1000 and have it still be cost effective. It's just that if you buy more at a time, it will obviously be cheaper. 9mm isnt where the money is saved though, it is with rifle rounds and large/odd caliber handgun rounds.
Depends on your situation. For me, 9mm IS where the money is saved, because of how much I shoot. I shoot very little in the way of rifle rounds, so it isn't worth it to me to reload for that.
(For example, I mostly shoot Wolf ammo in my AR-15, and it isn't worth it for me to set up my 550 for rifle rounds. And when I do need rifle rounds that are more accurate, I have a friend who'll load up as much as I want as long as I send him the components. I pay him in extra primers, which is just like gold to a reloader. ;D However, since I use Hornady V-max bullets, and just get 500 at a time, it isn't cheaper than standard .223 factory ammo, though it is cheaper than .223 precision ammo. )
For 9mm, though, I save over a thousand dollars a year in ammo costs. Definitely worth it to me!
Even more importantly for people doing competitions, tuning a load to work perfectly in your gun while remaining legal for competition (in power factor) plus maximizing the accuracy potential---this is significant, particularly if you can add in some cost savings as well.
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Depends on your situation. For me, 9mm IS where the money is saved, because of how much I shoot. I shoot very little in the way of rifle rounds, so it isn't worth it to me to reload for that.
I was talking about the cost per round savings for larger calibers vs. 9mm.
I reload .223 with pulled 55gr FMJ, pulled powder, and wolf primers. Perfect plinking load. Cost is at .11/round. I HATE prepping brass though.
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I would be VERY interested in going in together on a BULK purchase. :)
KHawes
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I would be VERY interested in going in together on a BULK purchase. :)
KHawes
Keep an eye on the forum. I'm guessing someone will be putting together a group buy.
Fly
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The Great Unanswered Question Here is........
When is Tom going to put that Old, Dilapidated, Beat-Up, Worn-Out, Obsolete Dillon 550 reloading press up for bidding here on the Forum???? [Since he now has the New, Bright, Shiny, Superfast Dillon 1100 and no longer needs the 550.]
Just Wondering.
sfg
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I would be VERY interested in going in together on a BULK purchase. :)
KHawes
I'm planning to put in an order at Grafs.com in the next week or so. I'll start another thread so as not to clutter up this one.
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Just an update for the benefit of anyone else wondering how much reloading will save them. I found a very useful spreadsheet to aid in the cost analysis. It can be downloaded here (http://westernsafellc.com/Reloading.xls). The only thing that is not 100% accurate is the estimate of shipping costs.
Here is a screen shot of my calculations using the spreadsheet above for 9mm. I tinkered a bit with the spreadsheet so I could add notes about the vendor and product. I also changed the shipping cost structure so I could add shipping costs for each item if necessary.
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/OnTheFly64/Reloadingcalculation9mm124grRN.jpg)
So with everyone's help here, I found that I can save in the range of $8 to $15 per 100 rounds of 9mm when comparing it to commercial 124gr ammo. If I shoot only half as much as jhthapkido,s 18,000 rounds per year, reloading could save me $720-1,350. Another way to look at it is that the reloaded ammunition will be only 48-58% the cost of the factory ammunition.
One major error I was making in my calculations was that I misplaced a decimal on the grains required per load. Instead of "4.3", I had input "43" which erroneously increased the price per round. Of course buying in quantities as suggested also brought the price down. I am hoping that group buys (especially for powder and primer) will help bring it down even further.
Fly
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Here is a screen shot of my calculations using the spreadsheet above for 9mm. I tinkered a bit with the spreadsheet so I could add notes about the vendor and product. I also changed the shipping cost structure so I could add shipping costs for each item if necessary.
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/OnTheFly64/Reloadingcalculation9mm124grRN.jpg)
So with everyone's help here, I found that I can save in the range of $8 to $15 per 100 rounds of 9mm when comparing it to commercial 124gr ammo. If I shoot only half as much as jhthapkido,s 18,000 rounds per year, reloading could save me $720-1,350. Another way to look at it is that the reloaded ammunition will be only 48-58% the cost of the factory ammunition.
In general, unless you are buying a fairly obscure powder (Solo 1000 comes to mind) I really wouldn't bother buying powder online--the Hazmat fee kills you. 8lb of WSF at Guns Unlimited is $120 ($16 less than online)---and that, along with buying a full case of primers at a time ($129.99 at GU--same price as online) even with tax, is considerably less than online from your spreadsheet.
Oh---and the Montana Gold prices include shipping already. So if you can find a couple of other people to each buy a case, bullets are about the same price, since shipping tends add money for other bullets.
Granted, I'm biased---I don't like plated bullets. I know plenty of people do, and plenty of people use them. I used Rainier plated bullets for several years, and they were ok---but for me, Montana Gold bullets were much more consistent.
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The Great Unanswered Question Here is........
When is Tom going to put that Old, Dilapidated, Beat-Up, Worn-Out, Obsolete Dillon 550 reloading press up for bidding here on the Forum???? [Since he now has the New, Bright, Shiny, Superfast Dillon 1100 and no longer needs the 550.]
Just Wondering.
sfg
I'll start the bidding at $50.
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I'll start the bidding at $50.
How about---never? Or $20,000, whichever comes first? ;D
(I need that one for when I finally have enough room to set up 2 presses at once so I can reload 9mm AND .223 at the same time.)
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In general, unless you are buying a fairly obscure powder (Solo 1000 comes to mind) I really wouldn't bother buying powder online--the Hazmat fee kills you. 8lb of WSF at Guns Unlimited is $120 ($16 less than online)---and that, along with buying a full case of primers at a time ($129.99 at GU--same price as online) even with tax, is considerably less than online from your spreadsheet.
Oh---and the Montana Gold prices include shipping already. So if you can find a couple of other people to each buy a case, bullets are about the same price, since shipping tends add money for other bullets.
Granted, I'm biased---I don't like plated bullets. I know plenty of people do, and plenty of people use them. I used Rainier plated bullets for several years, and they were ok---but for me, Montana Gold bullets were much more consistent.
Regarding Primers & Powder...I will have to check the Lincoln area to see if anyone has a similar good deal. Otherwise, a drive to Omaha in my gas guzzler may not make it cost effective.
Regarding Montana Gold...The 124gr CMJ are back ordered. I have an email in to them to find out when they might become available. Apparently they are still trying to recover from your big two pallet order this last spring! ;D
Fly
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DE Guns gave me a fair deal on primers last time I bought them. Nearly the same price as the web + hazmat. Call them and get a quote
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DE Guns gave me a fair deal on primers last time I bought them. Nearly the same price as the web + hazmat. Call them and get a quote
I have heard the same about DE Guns. I need to go check them out. (I bought my last primers from Scheels, mostly because I was there and the had them in stock. )
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I just called Scheels on Winchester WSF. They wanted $149.99 + tax on an 8# jug. :o
Fly
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Regarding Primers & Powder...I will have to check the Lincoln area to see if anyone has a similar good deal. Otherwise, a drive to Omaha in my gas guzzler may not make it cost effective.
Hey, next time you come up for a match, just stop by Guns Unlimited. :) (Steel Challenge on the 17th!)
As for finding those prices elsewhere---I certainly haven't. Scheels and Cabelas both have really horrible powder/primer prices, far as I can tell.
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Hey, next time you come up for a match, just stop by Guns Unlimited. :) (Steel Challenge on the 17th!)
I won't be available for the match, or probably any other match until later in the summer. I have to go back to work so I can pay for this hobby.
Fly
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Hey SemperFi Guy, Just remember if you buy that old beat up Dillion 550, and send it in to Dillion You might just get a nice shiney brand new one in returned. My Father in law came into possession of one that was all rusted sent back and got a new one in its place.
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Ram.................
OK, Here's the deal:
First, We convince Tom to send his Dillon back to the factory; so he gets a brannew 550 reloader machine in exchange. All new and shiny. Works like a charm. Doesn't miss a beat. Never a missing primer.
Then we cozy up to him. Let him shoot our old beater guns, whatever. Make him feel He Owes Us. [Maybe somehow even get Julie to be on our side. Have our women go to lunch with her. Talk about kids, fixing husbands, shopping, whatever.]
Next, we haul our reloading stuff--brass, primers, bullets, powder, etc.--over to Tom's Man Cave, play helpless, get him to set up the Spanky New Dillon 550 for 9mm. Say Wow!
Moving in for the Kill, we bet/dare him that he can't make more than 500/rounds per hour on that new Dillon Machine that ain't broke in yet.
We can do this on Sunday evening, listening to Mark Walters on Armed American while Tom pulls the crank.
When he isn't using the machine, we can rent it out to NFOA folks.
You call him.
sfg
[PS - Maybe we can use the Dillon to reload your Mystery 32s. Make a brannew Wildcat round: the RamRingerZinger.]
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Semperfi,
Sounds like a good idea
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First, We convince Tom to send his Dillon back to the factory; so he gets a brannew 550 reloader machine in exchange. All new and shiny. Works like a charm. Doesn't miss a beat. Never a missing primer.
Then we cozy up to him. Let him shoot our old beater guns, whatever. Make him feel He Owes Us. [Maybe somehow even get Julie to be on our side. Have our women go to lunch with her. Talk about kids, fixing husbands, shopping, whatever.]
Next, we haul our reloading stuff--brass, primers, bullets, powder, etc.--over to Tom's Man Cave, play helpless, get him to set up the Spanky New Dillon 550 for 9mm. Say Wow!
Moving in for the Kill, we bet/dare him that he can't make more than 500/rounds per hour on that new Dillon Machine that ain't broke in yet.
We can do this on Sunday evening, listening to Mark Walters on Armed American while Tom pulls the crank.
When he isn't using the machine, we can rent it out to NFOA folks.
You call him.
This is scaring me. :o
(Besides, my Super 1050 is already set up for 9mm. Wouldn't need to set up the 550 for that!)
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jthhapkido how much powder do you use for your setup?
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Powder's gonna be based first upon published reloading manual guidelines, and then tailored to the particular bullet and pistol. I know my Sig likes some things, dislikes others... varying powder charge by a few tenths of a grain within the margins of the book can make all the difference when loading different bullets.
I picked up an 8lb jug of powder a while back, prolly made 3000 rounds with it already... and there's still a lot left.
Don't take this as for 9mm, but if ya put 5.0 grains of powder in each round - you can make 11200 rounds out of 8 pounds of powder if everything is perfect. It won't be quite perfect, but I don't see why you couldn't get 11K rounds out of an 8lb jug at 5.0gr per round.
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UNFY.........
I'll close my eyes and take a guess:
8 pounds of.................WIN231!!!!!!!!!!
sfg
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Actually, 8lb of Winchester 296 for magnum charges and 8lb of Alliant Unique for generics :)
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I meant to be specifically asking about his setup for:
- 9 mm 124 gr CMJ bullets
- WSF powder
- Winchester primer
- for use in a Glock
Just looking for what he found to work for him, and a place to compare with on other research
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Don't be offended, but many ( if not most ) experienced handloaders are often leery of giving exact load data information for fear that a proper load work up may be skipped by the end user.
Truly every firearm is a new and different "experiment" in ballistic wizardry, and what works in one may not be safe in another
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Mudnrox:
For safety, whether starting as a new reloader or starting a new load as an experienced reloader, it's a good idea to begin the reloading work from published, tested data found in a factory reloading manual, usually published by a powder company or a reloading equipment company.
Hornady, Speer, and Lee are just a few. Many others. They only cost about $25 -30 each.
The front end of the Hornady manual gives excellent information on interior ballistics.
Lee's manual gives Lotsa loads for Lotsa different bullets in many different weights.
No single manual covers all available powders and bullet weights.
They frequently disagree between each other on loadings.
But............they all are based on loads that have been tested and re-tested in lab-controlled conditions.
Conversely, the loads posted on the internet by anonymous reloaders are potentially dangerous. No way to know if any tests have been conducted at all.
It's always a good idea to start with the lower loads and work up toward maximum.
Happy reloading.
sfg
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Thanks.
I am just trying to figure stuff out.
I haven't put anything together yet, but I did pick up the Hornady manual to start with
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Mudnrox
Good start.
If you want any help, you're welcome to PM me.
sfg
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Thanks.
I am just trying to figure stuff out.
I haven't put anything together yet, but I did pick up the Hornady manual to start with
BTW most if not all powder sites have load data on them. I have used many Hodgdon powders for the vast amount of data they supply (the also include IMR and Winchester).
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Aye.
ALWAYS START FROM PUBLISHED DATA.
If this is from bullet manufacturers, or powder manufacturers... just so long as it's from one of those sources. Books a great cause they're easy to thumb through, but many powder manufacturers also have website stuff.... I can dig up some links if it'd be helpful.
I really suggest the books. And since ya got one, picking up more as money permits is handy :). I've got a Hornady and a Speers book, and the non-reloading-table sections are very informative / helpful and are a required read IMHO.
Also, always start your load towards the bottom / at the lower range of the charges listed.
Try to match bullet weight, jacket type (if any), and primer type (regular vs magnum).
Also it's seemingly contradictory, but heavier bullets take less powder. It's all about staying within pressure ranges.
Times to restart your calibration of powder charge / seating depth:
* Different weighted bullets
* New bullets from a diff manufacturer or different type from same manufacturer
* New primer manufacturer (ie: winchester -> cci, etc)
* New type of powder (kind of a duhhhh)
* New bottle of powder (powder batches might be slightly different, so a test batch starting at lower charge weights is good... or if you're making benchrest competition, ya should do this anyway for consistency)
The idea of starting with the lower charge weights and working your way up (a magazine or less at a time) - is you can find a charge weight that agrees with your pistol and STAYING WITHIN SAFETY LIMITS.
* with first magazine load if on a lower charge, always check the bore to make sure the round left the barrel. some people load light and this can be an fatal problem.
* check for signs of excessive pressure (you just hit upper limit and should back off a bit.. dismantling your current magazine's worth of rounds is suggested)
* No failure to eject
* No feed issues
* if you're shooting lead, you can possibly find a charge weight that causes the least amount of leading in your barrel
* which charge is the most consistent and accurate for your particular pistol (each firearm has it's own unique personality)
Also, I've noted that my Sig p229 doesn't behave linearly at all with powder charge weight. It's more like a curve / sine wave. Adding / removing 0.2 of a grain can make it quite unhappy... but if I add/remove another 0.2 grain it's back to purring.
Mudnrox, Annnddd... as SFG has pointed out... most of us here are willing to help out and answer questions and stuff :)
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Thanks for the help
I am researching and putting stuff together as time permits. For some reason, work keeps getting in the way.
I hope to get some things figured out over the winter
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I meant to be specifically asking about his setup for:
- 9 mm 124 gr CMJ bullets
- WSF powder
- Winchester primer
- for use in a Glock
Just looking for what he found to work for him, and a place to compare with on other research
Sorry it took me so long to respond---I just remembered this thread and came back to read it.
What everyone has said so far in terms of being careful, using the manual, testing, checking, chronoing, etc----all is spot-on. What works well in my gun may NOT work well (or even safely) in yours.
That being, said, I don't mind giving my recipe because it isn't a high-pressure load by any means.
124 Montana Gold CMJ bullet
Random range brass cases (see? I'm REALLY not worried about high-pressure if I'm doing that)
5.0 gr Winchester Super Field
Winchester Small Pistol Primers
1.12in Overall Length (I tend to load them short. I know, most people say load long.)
Out of my Glock 34 that load has consistently been accurate, and gives me an average velocity of 1090 ft/sec. (For USPSA competition, that is a 135 power factor.) The same load out of a Glock 19 consistently gives an average velocity of 1056 ft/sec. (131 PF.)
I note that Winchester Super Field is reverse-temperature sensitive, meaning that as it gets hotter, the velocity goes down. (Not much, but it does change.) Throughout a range of temperatures (I've shot at 105 degrees, and 20 degrees) it is still a safe, reliable round to use for all sorts of practice and competition.
I note also that the 124 gr Federal HST self-defense ammo goes at approximately 1150 ft/sec (the 124 +P goes ~1200) so if I want to occasionally practice with something that more closely approximately my self-defense ammo, I can just kick up the powder two-tenths of a grain. This is still within the "safe range" of powder amounts in even the Lee reloading book, which is known to be quite conservative for 9mm.
I mostly don't bother, because periodically when I shoot my self-defense ammo, while I noticed the recoil is different, it doesn't affect how I shoot. So, I pretty much just shoot my competition load for both practice and formal competitions.
When I shot 147 gr Montana Gold CMJs, it was the exact same setup but used 3.9 gr WSF. (I will say that I like the recoil impulse of the 124s better. The 147 is softer, but the "snap" of the 124 gets me back on target faster. Counterintuitive, but the timer doesn't lie. For other people, the opposite may be true.)
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Excellent info from jthhapkido.
Being a safety nut, I'll just point out that you can possibly fix feed issues by changing seating depth as well as changing performance of the round... but seating deeper than what a published recipe calls for increases the pressure generated by the round.
If ya wanna start seating shorter, start with the low end of the tables with your 'tighter' seating and slowly work powder charge up while only firing a couple rounds at a time and checking for signs of over pressuring.
Thanks again to jthapkido for the info! :)
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Quick question- I am also thinking about reloading for my Glock 17, I have about 1lb of win 231 ( I think) and 1 lb of titegroup left over from when I was reloading for 45 ACP.
I sure would like to make use of these, would they be ok for 9mm? I have done some research other places and it seems that some recommend a powder with more volume- it seems it would be harder to tell if there is a double charge with these powders.
If so my goal would be that a double charge would overflow the case, making it very apparent. Would unique or WSF be a better choice?
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dkarp
Win231 is one of the most popular 9mm reloading powders.
And versatile. It works well in 9mm, .38Spcl, and .45ACP.
It's fairly fast, up around #18-20 on most powder burn rate charts. Many claim it's made same as Hogdon HP38. Win231 meters well and drops consistently.
Hornady, Lee, and Speer manuals all have 9mm loads in Win231.
Recommend use of visual examination on each load to prevent double charge.
sfg
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Sounds good, I now seem to remember that's the reason I bought it, (and the titegroup) it's usable in several calibers. I may just invest in a digital scale, the Lee balance scale works fine, just takes a lot longer to weigh charges when adjusting the powder measure.
Now I just need the $ for bullets, small pistol primers, and 9mm dies. I have brass almost ready to go.
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dkarp:
DigiScales are fine. Some are expensive. Depends.
What some folks do to cope w/oscillations on balance beam scales while weighing is immediately manually move the pointer to the zero point. Release. Beam will either stay centered to indicate OK, or move up/down, indicating need for action.
RCBS claims that their magnet-dampened balance beam scale pointer doesn't oscillate. Does. Just not so much/long as undampened beam scales.
Good luck.
sfg
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titegroup is a good powder for 9mm. It uses very little powder in a 9mm charge but a double charge is easily seen as long as you are looking down into the case while setting the bullet on top.
One thing to note, titegroup burns hot. If you are shooting lead bullets, the smoke after 5-6 shots will make your target disappear at an indoor range.
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DigiScales are fine. Some are expensive. Depends.
I've got a Mec little digital scale. Works just fine, and like any digital scale has a 'tear' function.
Place primed uncharged case on scale.
Press 'tear'.
Charge case.
Place case back on scale. Read out will be how much powder is in it.
EZPZ :)