NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: Gary on October 03, 2014, 12:29:10 PM
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http://libertycrier.com/massive-open-servility/ (http://libertycrier.com/massive-open-servility/)
What do we see in this story / photograph?
I see open carry, with a responsible twist. I believe this photo to be from Switzerland.
(http://libertycrier.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IsraeliWomanM4.jpg)
Contrast this photo above, with the one below, and you see a stark difference. I think this photo is the USA. Just a guess about the countries of origins for these two photos. If I were to open carry, I would not be comfortable with a magazine in the mag well. Just me. I am sure some of you will disagree.
(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608048574923736393&pid=15.1&H=119&W=160&P=0)
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OK, I guess depending on what platform you carry. lol
http://bearingarms.com/open-carry-kansas-kicks-notch/ (http://bearingarms.com/open-carry-kansas-kicks-notch/)
(http://cdn.bearingarms.com/uploads/2014/05/Open-Carry-Kansas.jpg)
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early in the summer i was walking my dog, same walk i take everyday. it's a bike trail around a pond surrounded by houses.
along came 2 kids on their bikes, i'd guess 12ish in age. one of them had a, what im assuming pellet gun rifle across his handlebars. i thought nothing of it, and i'm sure that if some lady and her kid came walking by they probably wouldn't think much of it either (well who knows).
i'll venture to be, if i was riding my bike on the same trail with my pellet gun across my handlebars, someone in the neighborhood would be up my butt screaming as fast as they could.
honestly in the first pic, it's not the gun i'm looking at.
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There's a gun in the top picture?
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Aren't you also uncomfortable with a round in the chamber? I can see why observers would feel more comfortable without the mag in but not the carrier. In the end, the assumption should be made the the magwell empty rifle still has on shot in it.
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honestly in the first pic, it's not the gun i'm looking at.
+1
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Aren't you also uncomfortable with a round in the chamber? I can see why observers would feel more comfortable without the mag in but not the carrier. In the end, the assumption should be made the the magwell empty rifle still has on shot in it.
I am more comfortable with Condition 3 or 4 carry for most people. http://www.glockleg.com/ (http://www.glockleg.com/)
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Do you carry your 10 mm Glock with no mag in the mag well?
P.S. the photo of the woman with the rifle was taken in Israel, not Switzerland.
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If you are going to carry open or concealed why would you do so without a magazine and one in the chamber? a year ago I contacted the state patrol, my local sheriff, and my state legislator and asked them if I carry should i carry with one in the chamber and every single one of the three responses were to carry with one in the chamber.
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you cant tell me that more than 1 out of 100 people at the farmers market would notice that there is no magazine.
See black gun = FREAKOUT!!!
Whoops, I guess since I used farmers market people in my example, I should also call it a clip.
66bigblock
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you cant tell me that more than 1 out of 100 people at the farmers market would notice that there is no magazine.
See black gun = FREAKOUT!!!
Whoops, I guess since I used farmers market people in my example, I should also call it a clip.
66bigblock
Exactly. Even on something like an AR15 with a mag that is mostly external, I'm guessing the average antigun yahoo couldn't tell.
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There was a firearm in the first picture? 8)
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I still can't see a firearm in the first picture, must be one of those optical illusions.
If you're not going to carry with a magazine in the gun and a round chambered, get a baseball bat and fix a sling to it, the bat is far more effective for self defense in this manner.
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There was a firearm in the first picture? 8)
No, there are several.
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In the first picture, the hypothetical firearm (I still don't see it) is most likely being carried by an Israeli reservist. They carry their duty weapons with them when out of uniform, but they're unloaded.
If you're open carrying solely to make a political statement then carrying with or without a magwell won't make much of a difference. If you're open carrying (or concealed carrying) for protection you are handicapping yourself by not carrying with a mag inserted and a round in the chamber. If someone personally doesn't feel comfortable with that I understand. It's still better than no gun at all.
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In the first picture, the hypothetical firearm (I still don't see it) is most likely being carried by an Israeli reservist. They carry their duty weapons with them when out of uniform, but they're unloaded.
If you're open carrying solely to make a political statement then carrying with or without a magwell won't make much of a difference. If you're open carrying (or concealed carrying) for protection you are handicapping yourself by not carrying with a mag inserted and a round in the chamber. If someone personally doesn't feel comfortable with that I understand. It's still better than no gun at all.
What level of training, as in rounds fired, would someone say, is sufficient to go chamber hot?
Is a box of 50, when you first get a gun enough? Is 50 a week enough? More?
The problem, is not one thing causes ND's. It is a combo of circumstances that cause them. Baby crying, phone ringing, bills over due, fight with spouse, fight with neighbors spouse, kids, traffic, weather, job, jobs, stress.
I guess we could ask the second in command at the 3 largest police dept in the state what caused the bullet hole in the ceiling of their dispatch office. Maybe the answer is there. Or maybe the 20 year police chief of another town, that has shot himself twice, in 20 years. When I see someone going condition 3, or condition 4, I do not see someone who is unfit to carry, I see someone that is thinking of all possible outcomes, and works what could happen, into their training, and into their life.
In the video clip below, I call the mindset, the Rambo mentality. No reason to have a condition 0 rifle, in a chow line, on a military base, except it does make for interesting movie viewing. This mindset, in popular culture, trickles down into the people that watch such shows, and it influences their actions. The child shot with a dropped gun at a Halloween party, is such a outcome. Why does someone need a round chambered in a pocket pistol at a child's Halloween party?
Back to the subject of Open Carry of long guns, do the open carry folks think it prudent to carry a rifle Condition 0 or Condition 1?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk)
http://youtu.be/bTalnzcO0xk (http://youtu.be/bTalnzcO0xk)
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What level of training, as in rounds fired, would someone say, is sufficient to go chamber hot?
Is a box of 50, when you first get a gun enough? Is 50 a week enough? More?
Whatever the person carrying decides is fine with me. It has been proven time and again that people with training make plenty of mistakes, anyway. I am not one that buys into the liberal fantasy that you must have mandatory training before you can do anything.
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I'll post carry condition numbers, so everyone will know what we are talking about.
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - furthermore known as "cocked and locked”, means a round is in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer down and no magazine is in the gun.
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What level of training, as in rounds fired, would someone say, is sufficient to go chamber hot?
It's not my place to say, or anyone else's, other than the person who makes the decision to take responsibility for their own safety. I'm fully confident in my ability to safely carry a gun with a round in the chamber. Other people may not be, and that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that someone without a mag inserted and a round chambered will not be able to react as fast.
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Negligent discharges are caused by the assumption that a firearm is not in condition 0. In my view all firearms are always in condition 0 and treated as such, no wondering or indecision brought on by myriad scenarios. Just one state of readiness that never changes.
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Negligent discharges are caused by the assumption that a firearm is not in condition 0. In my view all firearms are always in condition 0 and treated as such, no wondering or indecision brought on by myriad scenarios. Just one state of readiness that never changes.
^^^^^^^^^^I 2nd THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^
IT ALWAYS LEADS US BACK TO THE 4 BASIC RULES OF GUN SAFETY. (There is a reason they were written in blood)
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Negligent discharges happen. The vast majority of carriers carry with a round in the chamber. How many people would not survive their gun fight had they had an empty chamber? It's a hypothetical that I'm glad there will likely never be enough data for reliable stats. Defensive gun use doesn't always happen at ten feet where (if you trained that way) you could draw rack and fire. Sometimes you're already in the fight and are struggling to get even one hand to your weapon. Between the dynamic situation and sns activation, there is more than enough going on to deal with. Adding one more thing is tactically unsound.
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Every time a baby cries a neglected glock spontaneously goes bang... wtf, dumbest sh*t I've read today
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What level of training, as in rounds fired, would someone say, is sufficient to go chamber hot?
Competency isn't based on rounds fired.
Is a box of 50, when you first get a gun enough? Is 50 a week enough? More?
The problem, is not one thing causes ND's. It is a combo of circumstances that cause them. Baby crying, phone ringing, bills over due, fight with spouse, fight with neighbors spouse, kids, traffic, weather, job, jobs, stress.
That is not the most ridiculous list of things I've ever seen blamed for NDs. However, it comes close.
I guess we could ask the second in command at the 3 largest police dept in the state what caused the bullet hole in the ceiling of their dispatch office. Maybe the answer is there. Or maybe the 20 year police chief of another town, that has shot himself twice, in 20 years.
In many of those cases, we don't need to ask. The answer is incompetence.
Don't forget the LEO in Iowa who shot his sergeant. (And, I'll note, didn't even get a written reprimand in his file, if I recall correctly.)
All NDs are not the result of incompetence. Some are temporary aberrations resulting from a sequence of mistakes. However, the ones you listed ARE from incompetence, which is something else entirely.
I note that the LEO who shot his sergeant thought he had an empty chamber. He was wrong. Thinking to yourself "I always have an empty chamber" is insufficient to stop NDs.
When I see someone going condition 3, or condition 4, I do not see someone who is unfit to carry, I see someone that is thinking of all possible outcomes, and works what could happen, into their training, and into their life.
I see someone who is making their own choices based on their priorities.
I'll note that their priorities do not include being able to quickly use their firearm for self-defense purposes. And that's fine---it doesn't have to be their priority.
However, most people who carry firearms have self-defense as a priority, and thus choose differently. Knowing that someone carries condition three (carrying condition four is talisman thinking, really, as it effectively means that in a self-defense situation, you have a handweight) tells me about their self-defense priorities.
On a personal level, it tells me about their gun-handling competence level, too. IMO.
In the video clip below, I call the mindset, the Rambo mentality. No reason to have a condition 0 rifle, in a chow line, on a military base, except it does make for interesting movie viewing.
Yes, yes, we want to make decisions about people based on how movies portray them.
This mindset, in popular culture, trickles down into the people that watch such shows, and it influences their actions. The child shot with a dropped gun at a Halloween party, is such a outcome. Why does someone need a round chambered in a pocket pistol at a child's Halloween party?
That makes no sense. Unless, of course, somehow you have any idea whatsoever that movies influenced that person's thinking?
I'll note: They probably felt they needed a round chambered because that is how they carried. And there were carrying because that was habit for them. There isn't anything special about that, and the idea that you think someone should be criticized for deciding to carry tells me a lot. Granted, I already knew that.
Criticized for not carrying in a competent fashion, that resulted in harm? Sure. Criticized for having a loaded carry firearm? Give me a break.
Back to the subject of Open Carry of long guns, do the open carry folks think it prudent to carry a rifle Condition 0 or Condition 1?
Why would anyone carry an AR in Condition 0? And plenty of people in the military carry ARs ALL THE TIME in Condition 1.
Going back to the original picture---why in the world would you think that was Switzerland? When just about every caption for that picture mentions that she is Israeli?
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THANK YOU!!! jthhapkido that makes my monthly contribution worth it. :D
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I admit. That first picture is me at the Farmer's Market last year. :laugh:
I personally OC my blocky Glock with the mag in and a round chambered. For the first couple weeks when I started OCing, I carried without a round in the chamber. Now I feel more comfortable chambered up. While visiting Utah, I had to OC in condition 3 due to their laws...so it's good to know if there are any weird conditions to carry in different areas you frequent.
And +1 to what jthhapkido said.
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While visiting Utah, I had to OC in condition 3 due to their laws...so it's good to know if there are any weird conditions to carry in different areas you frequent.
ABSOLUTELY.
Every time I take a road trip, I check back on all the various state's laws on types of carry. Not only do you not want to break the law, you don't want to be even THOUGHT of as breaking the law when far from home. Being right but detained and having your firearm confiscated while the courts "work it out" in a state far from home is not what you want to have to deal with.
I've heard of plenty of people who first carried an empty gun around their house, to get used to the holster. Then carried the gun without a round chambered in public until they got used to that. Then ended up carrying in standard condition (mag in, chambered, holstered) afterward.
Those people had a plan to get themselves up to speed, and competent with firearms. Can't argue with that at all.
And people can certainly carry how they like. Hey, people can even carry their firearm disassembled in a plastic bag on the dash of their car, if that is what they want.
None of that changes the fact that certain modes of carry are more effective for self-defense. People simply make their choices based on their priorities.
MissMichella, one of these days I need to meet you in person and have you take a look at a Safariland ALS holster.....because you seem like a nice person and a competent gun handler, and that SERPA holster makes me grit my teeth every time I see it. :(
(Feel free to ignore me, though. :) )
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/10/08/CDC-Accidental-Poisoning-Death-51-Times-More-Likely-Than-Accidental-Shooting-Death (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/10/08/CDC-Accidental-Poisoning-Death-51-Times-More-Likely-Than-Accidental-Shooting-Death)
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I recently ran the numbers on home swimming pool drownings to rebuff some close friends and family members. I found that if you have a swimming pool at your residence you are 31 times more likely to have an accidental drowning than a home with a firearm having an accidental shooting...
I'll have to try to track down the numbers used, but I pulled them straight from the CDC and compared them to the number of home swimming pools (temporary and permanent) that several different organizations and government entities estimate the are in the USA.